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The Motherzone - Viability of Zair and PK Fire

JesterJaded

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
264
For those of you who practice Lucas's zoning game, how effective have you found Zair and PK Fire to be in a competitive match? Can you consistently wall out experienced players? Does this condition your opponent enough to struggle to get in? Can you force specific approaches to get easy reads for grab combos and kill setups (I.E. footstool shenanigans and Fair - jablock - Usmash)? I believe Lucas's neutral has fantastic potential that can complement his punishment game, but until I can practice myself I'd like to know if he's worth the grind.
 

Kodystri

the PK Spamming Lucas Main
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Jul 24, 2014
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412
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Kodystri
Lucas is like low mid tier. If you want to use that character, go right ahead, it is definitely not stopping me. Lucas's weakness comes to a lack of an approach option. Lucas can't approach. Lucas basically zones with PK Fire/PK Freeze/Zair until he sees an opening. And then he starts his nasty combos and kill potential. This is why he does poorly vs Sheik. Because Sheik, does not have an opening. The Footstools are pretty hard to do but with practice it shouldn't be too hard. Fair should be used as a punish for the jab lock(For example, Falcon's FSmash hits shield) to Up/Down Smash. Like I said, just zone with those three moves until a opening happens.
 

Snackss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
362
Lucas has too many tools to be low mid tier. Not like it matters, the current tier list is basically "Doesn't do completely awful against Sheik," and "does poorly against Sheik."

But there isn't really enough yet to say how well Lucas walls people out. I've had a lot of luck with it, but I'm not playing at tournaments or anything.
 

JesterJaded

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
264
Lucas is like low mid tier. If you want to use that character, go right ahead, it is definitely not stopping me. Lucas's weakness comes to a lack of an approach option. Lucas can't approach. Lucas basically zones with PK Fire/PK Freeze/Zair until he sees an opening. And then he starts his nasty combos and kill potential. This is why he does poorly vs Sheik. Because Sheik, does not have an opening. The Footstools are pretty hard to do but with practice it shouldn't be too hard. Fair should be used as a punish for the jab lock(For example, Falcon's FSmash hits shield) to Up/Down Smash. Like I said, just zone with those three moves until a opening happens.
I appreciate your constructive criticism, honestly I do, but this didn't address my thread topic. I know that Lucas lacks approach options. I'm asking if his zoning game is decent enough to compensate. With characters like Sheik, yes, even with the best of zoning games the matchup is abysmal, but our punishment game is so fierce that, if Lucas's zoning game is up to par, the matchup is decided on who makes the first mistake. In theory.

More specifically, what are the opponent's options against Lucas's zoning / what are Lucas's zoning weaknesses?

Lucas has too many tools to be low mid tier. Not like it matters, the current tier list is basically "Doesn't do completely awful against Sheik," and "does poorly against Sheik."

But there isn't really enough yet to say how well Lucas walls people out. I've had a lot of luck with it, but I'm not playing at tournaments or anything.
Can you describe your opponents' countermeasures to your zoning? Are they limited in options against the Zair wall? Is PK Fire too difficult to punish? How do you usually convert your zoning into punishes? I assume the latter is utilizing Zair's endlag to catch a whiff.

Lastly, is an attempted Zair conversion safe on shield? Any of them.
 
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Kodystri

the PK Spamming Lucas Main
Joined
Jul 24, 2014
Messages
412
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Kodystri
For those of you who practice Lucas's zoning game, how effective have you found Zair and PK Fire to be in a competitive match? Can you consistently wall out experienced players? Does this condition your opponent enough to struggle to get in? Can you force specific approaches to get easy reads for grab combos and kill setups (I.E. footstool shenanigans and Fair - jablock - Usmash)? I believe Lucas's neutral has fantastic potential that can complement his punishment game, but until I can practice myself I'd like to know if he's worth the grind.

I answered the first part, but not the second part. My bad lol.

Um I do have trouble zoning out projectile based users like Mega Man. I do fine vs characters like Rosa, Falcon, Grabuigi, and some other rush downs without projectiles that can't be absorbed. The thing is, you have to PK Fire smartly or you will be punsihed such as retreating PK Fires or PK Fire their get ups because you can't really spam it all day.

Characters I can't zone out with PK Fire:

Mega Man
Toon Link
Link
Sheik
Duck Hunt
Diddy Kong
Mario
Somewhat Sonic

And probably more. I have the hardest times with Zoners.
 

A Polar Bear

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
187
Location
North Pole
The thing with Lucas is that while he has projectiles, they're all incredibly mediocre, and carry great risk in using them within a certain range due to their noticeable end lag, even PK Fire. I don't find myself using PK Fire much as a zoning tool, much more as a damage racker or offstage finisher, because I feel it's too slow, but I have seen players use jump back PK Fire to great effect. PK Fire is more effective used in the air as you're landing because it pushes you back, putting a bit more distance between you and a speedy character in case it gets blocked or avoided. But I would suggest always using it near or outside of its maximum range to minimize chances of a punish. And as annoying as it may be, if you short-hop spam PK Fire, it can actually be quite useful.

Z-air I prefer over everything. In Brawl, I based a lot of my playstyle from Mekos, who uses Z-air to land laglessly, and in this game I pretty much always land or short hop with Z-air. It's uncancellable and destroys incoming projectiles, has stupid good range, and has negligible landing lag so it isn't punishable. If you get into the habit of using z-air all the time you literally can't be "outzoned", and sometimes I use it as a mixup and empty hop to bait out shields or rolls and punish accordingly. The few ways to get past Lucas z-air spam is to jump over or roll, both of which can be taken advantage of. When you're not jumping with the intention of chasing down your opponent with an attack, try getting used to jumping and using z-air immediately, and again right before landing.
 

Octagon

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Nov 24, 2014
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I find Lucas's Zair not worth it. Sure it has no lag but pk fire has more power and is good for spacing. Especially backwards pk fire in the air, that catches the opponent rly well
 

A Polar Bear

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
187
Location
North Pole
I find Lucas's Zair not worth it. Sure it has no lag but pk fire has more power and is good for spacing. Especially backwards pk fire in the air, that catches the opponent rly well
It's good, but it's a lot more potential for punish, especially for fast characters like Sheik or Falcon who can just shield and dash grab. Z-air is fast and consistent enough to control space better, at the expense of damage that isn't really that important when it comes down to controlling space and choosing the engagement. But you're right, PK Fire can work really well, just not as good as, say, ROB gyro or Diddy peanut gun.
 

JesterJaded

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
264
The thing with Lucas is that while he has projectiles, they're all incredibly mediocre, and carry great risk in using them within a certain range due to their noticeable end lag, even PK Fire. I don't find myself using PK Fire much as a zoning tool, much more as a damage racker or offstage finisher, because I feel it's too slow, but I have seen players use jump back PK Fire to great effect. PK Fire is more effective used in the air as you're landing because it pushes you back, putting a bit more distance between you and a speedy character in case it gets blocked or avoided. But I would suggest always using it near or outside of its maximum range to minimize chances of a punish. And as annoying as it may be, if you short-hop spam PK Fire, it can actually be quite useful.

Z-air I prefer over everything. In Brawl, I based a lot of my playstyle from Mekos, who uses Z-air to land laglessly, and in this game I pretty much always land or short hop with Z-air. It's uncancellable and destroys incoming projectiles, has stupid good range, and has negligible landing lag so it isn't punishable. If you get into the habit of using z-air all the time you literally can't be "outzoned", and sometimes I use it as a mixup and empty hop to bait out shields or rolls and punish accordingly. The few ways to get past Lucas z-air spam is to jump over or roll, both of which can be taken advantage of. When you're not jumping with the intention of chasing down your opponent with an attack, try getting used to jumping and using z-air immediately, and again right before landing.
This. This was precisely what I was looking for.

As a Toon Link main, I used my zoning to study my opponent's habits while in a favorable neutral position, limit their approach options to a spare few, and nab easy preemptive reads. The problem with Tink was the lackluster reward, whereas a hard read for Lucas means nabbing a stock.

I can easily see reading the jump and answering with a Nair > footstool > loop shenanigans being a powerful trap in Lucas's toolset, and a roll habit will make for an easy grab. Even mixing up PK Fire with Zair can be an interesting mindgame to confuse your opponent with fluctuating spacing.

Do you have anything to add on weaknesses to the Zair wall or other potential options the opponent can use, like Sheik's needles perhaps?

I answered the first part, but not the second part. My bad lol.

Um I do have trouble zoning out projectile based users like Mega Man. I do fine vs characters like Rosa, Falcon, Grabuigi, and some other rush downs without projectiles that can't be absorbed. The thing is, you have to PK Fire smartly or you will be punsihed such as retreating PK Fires or PK Fire their get ups because you can't really spam it all day.

Characters I can't zone out with PK Fire:

Mega Man
Toon Link
Link
Sheik
Duck Hunt
Diddy Kong
Mario
Somewhat Sonic

And probably more. I have the hardest times with Zoners.
As a zoner main, I don't usually have issues against other zoners, but considering Zair eats most projectiles I would assume Lucas is an excellent anti-zoner.
 
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KaptenFullkorn

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Nov 26, 2014
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Falköping, Sweden
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Magnetgoat
... try getting used to jumping and using z-air immediately, and again right before landing.
Do you have time for two zairs in a FJ or did i just misunderstand you? I tend to favor zair aswell due to the endlag on pk fire, zair can also set up for ftilt, dashattack, grab, jc magnet, jab etc, retreating with zair aint shabby either. The thing to watch out for would be characters as Marth or Sheik with a low hurtbox when they dash. You can still hit them with your zair, but you'll have to delay the input on the zair just a tinybit.

PK fire i use mainly to punish rolls or getupoptions, basicly no idea to use this while grounded if you do not want to get punished. Totally fine while retreating with shorthops, if you're even concidering moving in with a pk fire a wavebounced pkfire can help you get some ground inbetween you and your foe.
 

A Polar Bear

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
187
Location
North Pole
Do you have anything to add on weaknesses to the Zair wall or other potential options the opponent can use, like Sheik's needles perhaps?
The problem with z-air "wall" is that its execution is an exploitable pattern, the fastest way to throw it out is short hop z-air, over and over. Unfortunately you can't do 2 full z-airs with one full hop, because Lucas has a pretty bad first jump. Opponents can beat it by closing the distance between z-airs, shielding a hit, and reacting to what you'll do once you land. The safest option for Lucas then is to throw out a jab, which'll beat grab attempts, but that can be exploited too. Stay mobile in the air, move back and forth with the opponent's position on the stage, keep them at snake length distance, but don't be content doing that over and over, because they can get in, and Rope Snake doesn't do enough damage to be an overly intimidating obstacle.

Sheik's needles have a good chance of sneaking by to hit you when fully charged, take note of it. If it comes down to a spacing game, don't let her charge needles, stay in range of z-air hitbox to force her to shield, because single needles can be beaten by z-air, and don't do enough stun or knockback to let her take advantage and approach. Sheik's best advantage in this case is her speed, jumps, and occasionally vanish, which can all be used effectively to take advantage of a Lucas that's content with jumping and z-airing constantly.

Transcendent projectiles is probably the best 'direct' spacing counter to z-air, like ROB's laser. Otherwise most other character's projectiles are a bit too slow to sneak past Rope Snake, so they'll have to get smart.
 
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