The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Calebyte]

I suggest DK.

Donkey or Diddy? I wouldn't mind either.

 

[mars16]

lets discuss Donkey Kong

 

[HeroMystic]

Donkey or Diddy? I wouldn't mind either.

Jackass Kong.

 

[mars16]

Jackass Kong.

...........................................LOL

Donkey kong in this battle, is he's slower and A big target for Fireballs


But he does have that helps him in this fight is...he is one of the fast super heavys
He has good range and good
Ko power....I think
Also he's way Heavier.

 

[Inferno3044]

DK has a crapload of range. I think the most range but I'm not 100% sure so don't take my word for it. A disadvantage though is that nothing of his has disjoints so we can trade hits. His range is really good to keep us out for a bit. He also has very good KO power and can kill us around 100% fresh. His kill moves aren't hard to land also so it's something to keep in mind. He lives for way too ****ing long thanks to his UpB momentum break making him the heaviest characters in the game horizontally.

Mario on the other hand has some good advantages as well. Due to DK's big size, fireballs are very good against him. You can easily outcamp him also since he has no projectile. Fireballs can lead to an opening and can be followed up with fast moves like ftilt or jab. Dair can put a nice hole in his shield also. Once you get inside of him, it's combo time. It's really easy to rack damage on him. Like insanely easy. Mario is much faster than DK and once he gets in, range doesn't matter. Racking damage should be no problem. Cape evens out his UpB breaking and DK isn't hard to edgeguard and gimp. Don't use FLUDD though because DK's UpB beats it.

Pierce thinks Mario beats DK, but that's just his opinion. I'm not fully sure myself.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wasn't it even before the DK mains discovered Up-B Momentum Break?

 

[hippiedude92]

i have played this matchup to hell (so has kirin, i think me and him have the most experience since Will is the metagame of DK ;D)

matchup is like even on paper

in battle its like 55:45 or 6/4 DK

DK can do sooooo much gay stuff to mario, of course mario can compete with his fireballs, and his combo game u'll probably need to look for a gimp on DK for all of his stocks lol

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I used to think this matchup was even too.

But then June remembered that Mario was low tier... and reminded me that he was low tier. And I got my *** kicked.

DK wins. It just isn't fun anymore ;~;

I agree with Hippie.

 

[Inferno3044]

i have played this matchup to hell (so has kirin, i think me and him have the most experience since Will is the metagame of DK ;D)

matchup is like even on paper

in battle its like 55:45 or 6/4 DK

DK can do sooooo much gay stuff to mario, of course mario can compete with his fireballs, and his combo game u'll probably need to look for a gimp on DK for all of his stocks lol

What does DK have that's gay on Mario?

 

[vato_break]

Bair and ftilt out range everything. cpae jumping works great in this matchup and fsmash is also very good vs dk

 

[HeroMystic]

Cape Jump doesn't work too well, tested this myself. DK's F-Tilt lols @ CJ.

 

[Ripple]

since Will is the metagame of DK ;D)

I don't think so. yes he is good though


fireballs aren't the saving grace you make them out to be.

cape happens like once a game against good DKs

DK is the best punisher in the game. d-smash kills mario at 100% and is a very reliable kill move OOS.

mario can't kill reliably at all since mario has no reliable kill moves and DK is overall the heaviest character in the game

6/4 at least

 

[Inferno3044]

I used to think this matchup was even too.

But then June remembered that Mario was low tier... and reminded me that he was low tier. And I got my *** kicked.

DK wins. It just isn't fun anymore ;~;

I agree with Hippie.

You sound like you got mindgamed.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Nah.

:[

We're like 1-2 now D:

 

[Chaosgriffin]

I don't think so. yes he is good though


fireballs aren't the saving grace you make them out to be.

cape happens like once a game against good DKs

DK is the best punisher in the game. d-smash kills mario at 100% and is a very reliable kill move OOS.

mario can't kill reliably at all since mario has no reliable kill moves and DK is overall the heaviest character in the game

6/4 at least

Like Ripple said fireballs are not that great, any move that DK can do on the ground will cancel out the fireball, along with powershield, and SA. But it can put pressure on DK.

Cape is a threat but if we save our jump while we are recovering you will not find an opening to hit us will cape. Cause we can turn around with headbutt, then come back to the stage with bair's which also prevents gimping.

Mario has combos on DK, so if you want to get us anywhere near killing range, which will not be for a while, make sure you get in there and us those up tilts, and up airs. But good luck getting in there, with our bair, and ftilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's Sliding Up-smash kills heavyweights at around 125ish% and is not hard to land at all from juggles since DK doesn't have a projectile to stop Mario from doing Sliding Up-smashes, and Up-angled F-smash has massive range (outranges DK's F-smash) and kills at 120ish%. Mario's KO power is not to be underestimated.

Mario has Fireballs and FLUDD in addition to Cape to disrupt DK's recovery, and it is very difficult for DK to recover safely when all these options are used intelligently.

 

[vato_break]

yeah fludd will push DK really far if he tried to turn around/stall with headbutt since he's momentumless..

 

[daisho]

Mario has Fireballs and FLUDD in addition to Cape to disrupt DK's recovery, and it is very difficult for DK to recover safely when all these options are used intelligently.

FLUDD does nothing to DKs recovery. Cape will only happen if the DK doesn't know the matchup and tries to recover low. Otherwise you won't be getting it more than 2x a set.

yeah fludd will push DK really far if he tried to turn around/stall with headbutt since he's momentumless..

No experienced DK will stall with headbutt when the enemy is level horizontally to him. Usually DK is much higher therefore that would never happen (edit: that would never happen meaning DK would never get FLUUDed during a headbutt stall). Though, if it did for some reason then it should be an easy cape gimp.


I'm not all too experienced in the matchup so that's all I'll say.

 

[HeroMystic]

With all this mind, I'd say Mario's best kill move for this MU is D-Smash. Not because of kills, but because it's the only move with enough knockback to set up a gimp kill.

Though, that means for punishing, you'd have to save D-Smash, and use Jabs.

 

[BSP]

Fsmash can kill too, but I think it's better off used in this MU to punish DK's spacing mistakes. Save usmash. At most, fludd could set up for a cape, but it probabaly won't happen.

 

[Matador]

I'd probably say 55:45 DK's adv to even. Easy to combo DK, gimping isn't terribly difficult if you set him up properly, even KOs aren't that hard since Fsmash outprioritizes the majority of his attacks and he's a huge target.

However, he outranges us severely, can kill us low in percent, and can live extremely long especially if the stage supports his survivability.

Simply put, Mario has to play **** near perfect to reliably get inside DK's range, avoid gamebreaking KO moves like Fsmash and his neutral B, and KO him when he reaches killing percentages the entire set to come out on top.

DK, on the other hand, needs to wall Mario out, prevent being gimped early, and punish where he needs to for victory.

 

[Inferno3044]

fireballs aren't the saving grace you make them out to be.

Saving grace is not what I'd use. I'd say they're help. It pressures DK and forces him to approach. Big thing in brawl.

cape happens like once a game against good DKs

That's a big plus for Mario to say on average we should gimp him once per game. Us being able to gimp DK that easily really evens this out.

DK is the best punisher in the game. d-smash kills mario at 100% and is a very reliable kill move OOS.

Sonic has the best punish game. Also Bowser's UpB OOS is better.

mario can't kill reliably at all since mario has no reliable kill moves and DK is overall the heaviest character in the game

Mario has reliable kill moves but since this is DK, they won't kill for some time.

6/4 at least

I highly disagree.

Nah.

:[

We're like 1-2 now D:

Its Junebug though. I'll be honest that I've never seen his DK but I heard it's good.

Cape is a threat but if we save our jump while we are recovering you will not find an opening to hit us will cape. Cause we can turn around with headbutt, then come back to the stage with bair's which also prevents gimping.

Well really to recover there are mainly two choices for DK to do. I will also state what Mario can and should do in these situations.

1. Recover high. This will put DK in a freefall state and it's an easy way to get in more damage.
2. Recover low. Expect a cape and a possible gimp.

Since you're DK, of course you'd rather take damage than get gimped at some low percent. Mario wants to keep DK off stage to rack up damage by edgeguarding and gimping.

Mario has combos on DK, so if you want to get us anywhere near killing range, which will not be for a while, make sure you get in there and us those up tilts, and up airs. But good luck getting in there, with our bair, and ftilt.

It's a risk for us, but we just gotta camp. That should help us a bit since you won't use ftilt that much for approaching I think. Bair will still be a problem for us though.

FLUDD does nothing to DKs recovery. Cape will only happen if the DK doesn't know the matchup and tries to recover low. Otherwise you won't be getting it more than 2x a set.



No experienced DK will stall with headbutt when the enemy is level horizontally to him. Usually DK is much higher therefore that would never happen (edit: that would never happen meaning DK would never get FLUUDed during a headbutt stall). Though, if it did for some reason then it should be an easy cape gimp.


I'm not all too experienced in the matchup so that's all I'll say.

You're Jewish.

 

[mars16]

I think its 55:45 dK

Its hard to kill him\\\
Mario doesn't really have that much kill power
DK kills us at low Percentages
and has more range

Still though Mario has the Projectile and Fludd

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you play correctly, the only two moves that DK really should kill you with are U-air or D-smash (or B-air from respawn). He can save U-air for "failed" edgehog attempts, and his D-smash is overall best KO move in terms of speed and range. His D-smash does kill at respectable percents uncharged, but if that's the only move he's killing you with, he's not winning KO power by by a landslide, when you consider the stuff that Mario can set up onto him virtually safely from even generic juggles.

I personally think the matchup is merely technical for Mario and neutral in high level play, as most of playing against DK is merely learning the matchup in person for yourself so that you teach yourself to not get owned by basic stuff like airdodge -> u-tilt, arbitrarily charged Smashes, and DK's <100% getup attack, and these things above anything else DK can do will wreck you as a player if you have little DK experience or get sloppy. Mario by all means entirely has the tools to be perfectly competent in this matchup in terms of zoning, spacing, pressure, and finisher options. DK doesn't have Marth's extremely safe forward approach and he's also a fairly limited character in terms of what punish options he has when you pressure him. His shield also sucks, which you should be able to see the obvious advantages of.

 

[HeroMystic]

Haven't seen much talk about CP stages.

Final Destination and Frigate are definitely the best ones, but what about to avoid/ban?

 

[Famous]

I'd probably say 55:45 DK's adv to even. Easy to combo DK, gimping isn't terribly difficult if you set him up properly, even KOs aren't that hard since Fsmash outprioritizes the majority of his attacks and he's a huge target.

However, he outranges us severely, can kill us low in percent, and can live extremely long especially if the stage supports his survivability.

Simply put, Mario has to play **** near perfect to reliably get inside DK's range, avoid gamebreaking KO moves like Fsmash and his neutral B, and KO him when he reaches killing percentages the entire set to come out on top.

DK, on the other hand, needs to wall Mario out, prevent being gimped early, and punish where he needs to for victory.

I agree...The thing about DK is that he can rack up your damage pretty fast...When your damage get racked(lets say to about 75%) your initial strategy changes from aggro to campy....Word of advice, stay campy the entire match...Use fireballs every way possible (to approach and to retreat)

Getting insides DK attack range and pressuring his shield is also something you should do at low percents.


@SmashGod-The reason your losing is because you must be approaching DK wrong...If you approach a DK the wrong way you will die in no time...You can;t just run up on him, you have to work your way in gradually

Also, DK can Bair Fireballs so make sure you don't shoot any if he's approaching you with Bair, Cape instead...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly I don't think stages really affect this matchup much at all.

Frigate really doesn't give Mario or DK a noticeable edge from my experience.

RC is probably the best CP against him imo.

FD vs BF...imo those stages really depend on your own playstyle against him, although I guess I would give the nod to FD overall.

 

[HeroMystic]

Nah, I can definitely tell from fighting Veggi's DK that stages need to be picked wisely here.

 

[Micaelis]

Eh, this match-up is really dependent upon whether the DK knows how to recover or not imo. The gimps are the only thing that saves Mario in this MU really, that and well spaced fireball edge gaurding in some cases.

DK's outranges Mario both ground and air. Our Bair basically ignores fireballs and sets up for good chain combos/damage. Most of Mario's approaches can be shut down with reverse Utilt and Bair and his camp can be easily broken since he has no reliable way to get around DK without taking damage once he's pressured onto an edge. And edge cornered is where DK loves a person to be.

A notable thing in this match up that I want to mention, with my experience playing a very decent/intelligent Mario player, Bair edge gaurding Mario in this MU just ***** him. I don't know how many times I've D-Cargo'd a Mario off and just edge gaurd Baired him to death. If spaced right I don't believe Mario has an option since he's forced to recover so lower already.

On a high level play where both know the MU I think maybe 55:45 DK. But in most circumstances 60:40 DK sounds better.

 

[vato_break]

also i would like to note if dk recovers more VERTICALLY if hes a bit below the stage....Capeing him would do nothing but a simple edge hog will do the job

 

[Veggi]

Matchup discussions are stupid and I don't like participating in them now, but there are some things that need to be adressed.

Mario's fireballs as a camping tool are a joke, switching around between power shielding and ftilting them is one of the ways I amuse myself and is a fun game at parties. After that Mario is at the edge, bam look at that.

FLUDD halts him in the air during his invincibility, which allows Mario more time to cape his up b. I've done it multiple times, it works.

DK can avoid the cape by using up b early or using saving his second jump to jump over him. He doesn't always have the option, but hitting up b early and trucking as far as you can saves your life and only gives you a minimal punish if anything.

Stages are important, namely Yoshi's Island and Jungle Japes against Mario. Hope Japes is already banned or he'll live forever due to up b break being more useful the larger the blastzones are. After that DK can fall in the water, land on a platform that is hard to maneuver to or grab one of the many ledges. Plus Mario is sooo bad at getting out of the water. DK can drop from farther than the leftmost edge and kill himself off the ride side using only the water and the power of ambition if he **** well pleases.

Yoshi's Island DK can just up b Mario's hat off with both invincible and super armor up b extension depending on his mood.

 

[Famous]

Eh, this match-up is really dependent upon whether the DK knows how to recover or not imo. The gimps are the only thing that saves Mario in this MU really, that and well spaced fireball edge gaurding in some cases.

DK's outranges Mario both ground and air. Our Bair basically ignores fireballs and sets up for good chain combos/damage. Most of Mario's approaches can be shut down with reverse Utilt and Bair and his camp can be easily broken since he has no reliable way to get around DK without taking damage once he's pressured onto an edge. And edge cornered is where DK loves a person to be.

A notable thing in this match up that I want to mention, with my experience playing a very decent/intelligent Mario player, Bair edge gaurding Mario in this MU just ***** him. I don't know how many times I've D-Cargo'd a Mario off and just edge gaurd Baired him to death. If spaced right I don't believe Mario has an option since he's forced to recover so lower already.

On a high level play where both know the MU I think maybe 55:45 DK. But in most circumstances 60:40 DK sounds better.

DK edgeguarding Mario isn't all that great if the Mario knows what he's doing...D-Cargo Throw is nothing since if you hold Up on the controller while DK walks off the ledge it auto-breaks...and if the Mario knows how to tech he get's a free cape afterwards...

Bair can be avoided and it's just plain stupid to stay inside DK's range while he's doing Utilt...I almost never get hit by that move...


@Veggi-Did you know that we can stop DK's invincible up b with fireball and USmash? If you Usmash it you can try to follow up with something else...Invincible Up-B=Yoshis

 

[Veggi]

Show me where you got the information that up smash and fireballs stop DK's up b. DK's cargo also won't auto-break if you hold up when he goes offstage. Holding up will input one button command for every frame. It breaks out fast, but depending on percentage it isn't always fast enough. I've held up when I was around 120% and a DK still cargo spiked me when I was close to the edge.

Regardless, DK shouldn't be reliant on cargo spiking because it's techable. DK can walk off the edge and dthrow Mario, then he can't make it back up. Ramming into Mario with DK's up b after a dthrow, whatever. DK can also reverse his direction as he goes off of the edge, which lets him throw Mario under the stage with dthrow. DK can even screw up the timing of a normal stage spike to mess the Mario up, then even if the Mario techs and uses cape for whatever reason, it's highly dependent on positioning and is not likely to happen. DK can stage spike Mario with a late cargo dthrow timing as well. It isn't clear cut.

Also, for what A2ZOMG said earlier, any kind of read can get DK an fsmash or Giant Punch, Giant Punch goes through fireballs as well. Up smash can be landed off of tech reads and bair kills too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Japes is banned in most areas and like any committed approach, you can shieldgrab DK out of the invincible Up-B once it is over.

DK's F-smash and Giant Punch are too slow, although the latter is in fact safe on block. Up-smash is worse than ROB's, and B-air is never a kill move except from respawn. Fighting DK is mostly about matchup knowledge and watching out for gimmicks. He does progressively worse the more experience you have against him, since he only has a few reliable moves for covering his options.

 

[mars16]

Welll....................

Ready all the post above I'''''d say its

55:45 Donkey or 50:50

 

[Veggi]

Japes is banned in most areas and like any committed approach, you can shieldgrab DK out of the invincible Up-B once it is over.

DK's F-smash and Giant Punch are too slow, although the latter is in fact safe on block. Up-smash is worse than ROB's, and B-air is never a kill move except from respawn. Fighting DK is mostly about matchup knowledge and watching out for gimmicks. He does progressively worse the more experience you have against him, since he only has a few reliable moves for covering his options.

If you don't have a full shield, DK's up b will almost always shield poke and gives him an excellent option for getting back onto the stage safely.

Fsmashes and Giant Punches can be landed off of reads so easy. Soooo easy. It's cake, really. Explain how DK's up smash is worse than ROB's and how that relates to the discussion at hand at all. DK can platform tech chase people with that and get guaranteed up smashes, they kill early. It happens, that means it's worth doing. DK's bair isn't the only move he uses. It's not always stale. Even so, kills right after respawn are worth mentioning.

 

[Matt07]

DK's down smash is so stupid, beats all of our aerials LOL.

 

[Famous]

Yea...DK's like to SH Bair-Air Dodge-DSmash...It works so well...Always gotta look out for that when your in kill percentage

 

[A2ZOMG]

By read, that means he has to predict a mistake, and if you simply play conservatively and recover correctly, he's not landing F-smash or Giant Punch, since they're both easily avoided/blocked on reaction when you play intelligently. Trust me, I understand reads, since my playstyle is heavily read based.

DK's Up-smash has less range than ROB's, is slower, and he has no real trap into it (besides the headbutt, which is a very unsafe move, while ROB's Dash attack sets up into Up-smash nicely). ROB also baits the airdodge better when people deliberately avoid his Up-smash. ROB's Up-smash is a pretty bad move, but DK's for the most part is less applicable.

DK has B-air for hitting behind him, and F-tilt/grab for hitting in front of him. His other moves are significantly more situational.

Besides, Mario's KO power isn't exactly bad if you know what you're doing. He has a better reason to charge F-smash and Up-smash than Donkey Kong, and the latter can be very difficult for DK to avoid if you have the sliding Up-smash mastered.

 

[Veggi]

Up smash lands by performing platform tech chases and baiting airdodges. For both of these purposes it is fast enough to work because they can not avoid it. DK's up smash gets kills. Because they can both be used in the same situations (with DK's dash and fall speed being faster, so he can use it in more situations,) with DK's being stronger, it makes it better. I also don't think ROB's up smash has more range...DK's up smash outranges G&W's key. That also means that DK's up smash can be used if Mario challenges him from above...which it does.

Explain how Mario could play conservatively and not get read. If Mario does a move and I know he's going to do one, dead plumber. Good luck camping when it won't do any damage to me as I just walk by and perfect shield every fireball, which I can and consistently do in every match against a Mario that tries to camp me. If you can perform an action and I have a move that beats that option, that's where reading comes in.

Also, dtilt and down b are arguably better than ftilt. jc up b is better than ftilt.

DK can charge an fsmash or down smash to bait an airdodge or attack and then beat them.