The ideal patch: Palutena

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Palutena suffers from many flaws, most notably poor ground frame data and low usefulness specials. As such, she is often considered a lower low tier, so hopefully these buffs will help to change that. (note: this thread is part of a series of threads i am doing to create a theoretical finalised balance patch for the game).

Air speed: 0.91 -> 1.06
Gravity: 0.105 -> 0.1
Jab 1 hitbox acive: 8-10 -> 6-8
Ftilt (hit 1) hitbox active: 17-24 -> 13-20
Ftilt (hit 2) hitbox active: 25-39 -> 20-36
Ftilt FAF: 68 -> 60
Utilt (loop) hit rate: 5 -> 6
Utilt (loop) SDI multiplier: 0.3 -> 0.28
Utilt (final) damage: 2.5/1.5 -> 2.5
Dtilt hitbox active: 14-24 -> 12-22
Fsmash hitbox active: 18-19 -> 16-19
Fsmash FAF: 67 -> 62
Fsmash windbox WBKB: 40 (clean) 26 (late) -> 45 (full duration)
Fsmash windbox sizes: 12.0 -> 12.6
Dsmash hitbox active: 17 -> 15-17
Dsmash FAF: 72 -> 60
Bthrow KBG: 70 -> 78
Nair (loop) hitbox size: 3.4/3.4/3.4/3.4 -> 3.6/3.6/3.6/3.6
Nair FAF: 52 -> 49
Fair hitbox active: 9-11 -> 7-9
Fair FAF: 45 -> 42
Bair KBG: 92 -> 95
Uair (loop) rehit rate: 5 -> 6
Uair (loop) SDI multiplier: 0.7 -> 0.65
Dair (spike) hitbox size: 4.0 -> 4.2
Dair (spike) BKB: 20 -> 30
Autoreticle projectiles generate at: 29, 35, 41 -> 25, 30, 35
Autoreticle projectiles damage: 2.9 -> 3.5
Autoreticle projectiles size: 2.3 -> 2.6
Reflect pushbox size: 3.5 -> 3.8
Reflect pushbox WBKB: 35 -> 38
Counter window: 10-31 -> 8-33
Counter (attack) BKB: 40/20 -> 40
Counter (attack) KBG: 75/65 -> 82

 

[sjb.dario]

Hmm. It's true that Palutena needs some buffs, but I think there are some changes that can be made to this list that will help Palutena directly answer some of her problems.

It's always important to know what any characters' current strengths and problems are when it comes to balancing/buffing/nerfing them. Palutena's current strengths are her decent offstage game, good range in attacks, and decent (not great) ability to rack up damage. Her weaknesses are her lackluster frame data (which prevents her from having a great ability to rack up damage and escape/challenge rushdowns effectively), unreliable OoS game, lack of reliable kill setups/options, and lack of good zoning game. I think her design was focused on having good range in attacks and being able to rack up damage well while having a good offstage game.

• Air Speed: I think giving her a small air speed buff like you posted won't hurt.
• Gravity: Dunno
  
• Jab 1: Considering how Jab 1 is a very important setup move, it would be great to have that 2 frame buff on the jab. Obviously, it should end that much faster, too.
• F-Tilt: F-tilt as of now is stupidly useless. Your buffs are nice, but I still think it would not be good enough. I think it should act more like Ryu's shield-breaking F-tilt with similar frame data to his medium f-tilt (albeit slightly slower). Then, it will actually have some practical use to it
• U-tilt and D-tilt: They're fine as it rn, but having those buffs you mentioned would be tasty.
• F-smash: The problem with Palu's f-smash is that it comes out slow, is active for too short of a time, doesn't reach as far as it should, and ends too slow. It would help to give Palu more active frames AND make the hitboxes have longer sourspots. It should also end at around frame 62.
• D-Smash: This move is tremendously bad. It comes out too slowly, is active for far too short of a time, and ends too slowly. This move should just be bigger and have more active frames while ending faster (about 50 frames).
• B-Throw: Having a b-throw with the KBG value you offered would be great. I do think that giving her more KBG on u-throw would be good, too. This would give her a little more answer with not being able to kill reliably.
• F-Air: I'm not sure about the KBG change, considering how f-air right now can be a useful combo tool sometimes. However, I wish it came out faster, considering how there are other f-airs with more range and power that come out faster than Palutena's.
• U-Air: Dunno. The values you offered seem nice tho.
• D-air: I wish this move had 1-2 more active frames along with that size buff and BKB value you offered. It would also be nice to have it end a bit faster.
• Nair: You haven't mentioned this, but I feel n-air should be bigger and rotate faster. This would make the move bigger and end faster. This means that she'll be able to use nair in neutral a little more, allow her to have a better and more reliable offstage game (considering how her nair is a pretty popular offstage option), and even allow her to act OoS with it. This would make her OoS game decent.
• Autoreticle: Nothing to add to what you said. Your values seem good.
• Reflect: Ditto
• Counter: I think your counter window is fine.

I think you had a decent idea of what Palutena needs, but I hope the ideas I presented kind of give you a better idea of what strengths and weaknesses Palutena has and what changes can make her a potentially great character.

Oh yeah, btw, it may not seem like it, but Palutena is pretty mid-tier :v. I understand that you think she's a super low-tier considering how she has no reps and doesn't function as fluidly as other high-tier (and even mid-tier) characters at first. But, I'll let you know that Palutena is a decent character with a range-focused moveset with grappling capabilities (her d-throw is a very useful combo tool). Her b-air and her dash attack also helps her challenge opponents' moves a lot (considering how her b-air and dash attack makes her invincible for a VERY short while). Her jab is huge and very disjointed, making it very useful as a setup for grab, and for nair and u-air when opponent's % is high. There are other aspects that make her decent, but I digress.

Anyways, that's all. I'm curious as to what other Palu players would say if they ever choose to post their thoughts on your list, too. I hope my post was helpful to you.

 

[Duplighost]

I'm not exactly sure how to demonstrate what I want to say using numbers and data, so instead I will provide written descriptions. I apologize if I restate any of the above.

• Forward tilt: unanimously known as the most useless tilt in Palutena's moveset (and perhaps most useless move in general). Like sjb.dario stated above, this tilt having properties like Ryu's f-tilt would be beneficial. However, since this moves intended use was probably for catching rolls, the most realistic buff would be to remove the large amount of lag after it and increase its knockback.
• Up tilt: a kill move at a lower percent than it already is would be nice. I'd say a more important buff is to make it have hitboxes on the sides of Palutena that will lift the opponent into the main part of the move.
• Neutral air: Little to no landing lag. You'd better be able to fastfall combo with it and use it as a spacing tool without having to worry about being punished for it. A little more kill power would be nice but not necessary.
• Forward throw: Power similar to Bayonetta's forward throw?

Though my suggestions may not be very helpful or seem baseless, I'll be sure to add more as I think of it.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Hmm. It's true that Palutena needs some buffs, but I think there are some changes that can be made to this list that will help Palutena directly answer some of her problems.

It's always important to know what any characters' current strengths and problems are when it comes to balancing/buffing/nerfing them. Palutena's current strengths are her decent offstage game, good range in attacks, and decent (not great) ability to rack up damage. Her weaknesses are her lackluster frame data (which prevents her from having a great ability to rack up damage and escape/challenge rushdowns effectively), unreliable OoS game, lack of reliable kill setups/options, and lack of good zoning game. I think her design was focused on having good range in attacks and being able to rack up damage well while having a good offstage game.

• Air Speed: I think giving her a small air speed buff like you posted won't hurt.
• Gravity: Dunno
  
• Jab 1: Considering how Jab 1 is a very important setup move, it would be great to have that 2 frame buff on the jab. Obviously, it should end that much faster, too.
• F-Tilt: F-tilt as of now is stupidly useless. Your buffs are nice, but I still think it would not be good enough. I think it should act more like Ryu's shield-breaking F-tilt with similar frame data to his medium f-tilt (albeit slightly slower). Then, it will actually have some practical use to it
• U-tilt and D-tilt: They're fine as it rn, but having those buffs you mentioned would be tasty.
• F-smash: The problem with Palu's f-smash is that it comes out slow, is active for too short of a time, doesn't reach as far as it should, and ends too slow. It would help to give Palu more active frames AND make the hitboxes have longer sourspots. It should also end at around frame 62.
• D-Smash: This move is tremendously bad. It comes out too slowly, is active for far too short of a time, and ends too slowly. This move should just be bigger and have more active frames while ending faster (about 50 frames).
• B-Throw: Having a b-throw with the KBG value you offered would be great. I do think that giving her more KBG on u-throw would be good, too. This would give her a little more answer with not being able to kill reliably.
• F-Air: I'm not sure about the KBG change, considering how f-air right now can be a useful combo tool sometimes. However, I wish it came out faster, considering how there are other f-airs with more range and power that come out faster than Palutena's.
• U-Air: Dunno. The values you offered seem nice tho.
• D-air: I wish this move had 1-2 more active frames along with that size buff and BKB value you offered. It would also be nice to have it end a bit faster.
• Nair: You haven't mentioned this, but I feel n-air should be bigger and rotate faster. This would make the move bigger and end faster. This means that she'll be able to use nair in neutral a little more, allow her to have a better and more reliable offstage game (considering how her nair is a pretty popular offstage option), and even allow her to act OoS with it. This would make her OoS game decent.
• Autoreticle: Nothing to add to what you said. Your values seem good.
• Reflect: Ditto
• Counter: I think your counter window is fine.

I think you had a decent idea of what Palutena needs, but I hope the ideas I presented kind of give you a better idea of what strengths and weaknesses Palutena has and what changes can make her a potentially great character.

Oh yeah, btw, it may not seem like it, but Palutena is pretty mid-tier :v. I understand that you think she's a super low-tier considering how she has no reps and doesn't function as fluidly as other high-tier (and even mid-tier) characters at first. But, I'll let you know that Palutena is a decent character with a range-focused moveset with grappling capabilities (her d-throw is a very useful combo tool). Her b-air and her dash attack also helps her challenge opponents' moves a lot (considering how her b-air and dash attack makes her invincible for a VERY short while). Her jab is huge and very disjointed, making it very useful as a setup for grab, and for nair and u-air when opponent's % is high. There are other aspects that make her decent, but I digress.

Anyways, that's all. I'm curious as to what other Palu players would say if they ever choose to post their thoughts on your list, too. I hope my post was helpful to you.

Sorry for taking ages to respond. I have added in some of your suggestions, however i thought that Palutena's Ftilt breaking shields would be a little out of place. Your comment was very helpful, as it is always useful to get feedback from people who actually main these fighters (as I can only do so much as a Jigglypuff main). Also i should probably explain the gravity change because it is quite complicated. In general, you want your gravity stat to be as close to average as possible, having one that is too low makes landing difficult, whilst having one that is too high has a whole set of problems, including making you far easier to combo, sustaining slightly higher hitstun (the reason for this is complicated), having a more easily gimpable recovery and a marginally worse horizontal survivability (due to the aforementioned hitstun increase). In Palutena's case, her gravity is above average, so lowering it would be beneficial.

 

[PHP]

Not to be a stick in the mud, but this discussion doesn't really help anybody. There are no more patches and even if you could mod these in they would still be illegal.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Not to be a stick in the mud, but this discussion doesn't really help anybody. There are no more patches and even if you could mod these in they would still be illegal.

There was a leak that the Switch port will have new DLC, if that is the case, then there will likely be a balance patch

 

[sjb.dario]

There was a leak that the Switch port will have new DLC, if that is the case, then there will likely be a balance patch

I think another thing that has to be mentioned is that even if the game gets patched, we're not even sure if Palutena would get buffs. There were many times when Palu mains hoped for some buffs whenever a patch was released, only to be disappointed with little-to-no changes.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Buffing up the knockback for f-tilt and Counter would probably be the biggest things that Palutena would want.