The Duo Meta Proposal Thread

[Road Death Wheel]

There been arguments through out the forums of our smash community discussing the idea of a FD only meta game.
Now recently Nintendo had announced a invitation tournament. Which to many's dislike will probably have the same rule set as for glory mode. But then that got me thinking. I first thought about the smogon community in witch the community developed its own meta game. while still participating in the Nintendo related rule set tournaments as well.
So smogon has its standard doubles meta game following the rule set they developed over the years.
But they still discuss strategies and such for VGC the Nintendo doubles rule set. As well as partake.
So I thought why can't we as a meta for smash 4 have two meta's as well?
So i propose that we the community develop our self's further. Where we can discuss 2 separate meta games.

Yes this may be some work especially if nintendo decided to not support smash 4 in VGC as well but in the end i feel that now everybody can get what they want out of competitive smash.
Besides two different meta games with different tier list and viable character might get more people into the competitive scene know that perhaps the character they like might be good in one of them.( of course this might not be the case with all characters)

But in the end i don't think that there is any "cons" to having two meta's i feel everybody will have something they enjoy now and it will flourish our competitive scene as a whole.
So what do you think YaY or Nay? discuss.

 

[LancerStaff]

There been arguments through out the forums of our smash community discussing the idea of a FD only meta game.
Now recently Nintendo had announced a invitation tournament. Which to many's dislike will probably have the same rule set as for glory mode. But then that got me thinking. I first thought about the smogon community in witch the community developed its own meta game. while still participating in the Nintendo related rule set tournaments as well.
So smogon has its standard doubles meta game following the rule set they developed over the years.
But they still discuss strategies and such for VGC the Nintendo doubles rule set. As well as partake.
So I thought why can't we as a meta for smash 4 have two meta's as well?
So i propose that we the community develop our self's further. Where we can discuss 2 separate meta games.

Yes this may be some work especially if nintendo decided to not support smash 4 in VGC as well but in the end i feel that now everybody can get what they want out of competitive smash.
Besides two different meta games with different tier list and viable character might get more people into the competitive scene know that perhaps the character they like might be good in one of them.( of course this might not be the case with all characters)

But in the end i don't think that there is any "cons" to having two meta's i feel everybody will have something they enjoy now and it will flourish our competitive scene as a whole.
So what do you think YaY or Nay? discuss.

The biggest problem with having two metagames is that SSB tournaments happen IRL, and I doubt we're going to see many tournaments that support both rules.

 

[lami]

I don't think this is gonna be an issue outside of the Invitational. Nintendo probably won't host many tournies outside of this one which means the metagame will develop thanks to the community members. Should Nintendo have any more tournaments we use their rules and then continue on with the community's agreed set from then on.

 

[SnappyJ]

The biggest problem with having two metagames is that SSB tournaments happen IRL, and I doubt we're going to see many tournaments that support both rules.

This exactly. Inevitably one ruleset is going to be more heavily embraced by the community, while the other will most likely fade away. I don't see a big problem with trying two different stage selections initially. We don't know exactly how the all the new gameplay changes will affect the meta game. So for all we know, the For Glory mode stage selection could work quite well. Personally I would like some stages with platforms though.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This exactly. Inevitably one ruleset is going to be more heavily embraced by the community, while the other will most likely fade away. I don't see a big problem with trying two different stage selections initially. We don't know exactly how the all the new gameplay changes will affect the meta game. So for all we know, the For Glory mode stage selection could work quite well. Personally I would like some stages with platforms though.

Yeah i agree
This topic is only under the assumption that Nintendo hold a VGC tournament at leas once a year.

 

[Chauzu]

If Nintendo starts holding a real Smash VGC tournament (Oh My God plz do) then yes, I agree with two metas. Ideally we would just follow the official variant but the Smash community has been running apart from Nintendo for a long time so it's not going to happen.

 

[Aninymouse]

The biggest problem with having two metagames is that SSB tournaments happen IRL, and I doubt we're going to see many tournaments that support both rules.

Yeah, Pokemon is largely played competitively online nowadays.

It's not outlandish to have multiple metas for a Smash get-together: singles, doubles, crew, friendlies, etc. It's just that you can only accomodate so many metas at once in a room full of people with a set amount of TVs. So, realistically, playing "Smashboards Singles" (standard Smash rules) alongside For Glory at unofficial tournament venues is not likely to happen, unless both rulesets are similar enough that it doesn't matter. That remains to be seen, and isn't likely.

However, any official tournament venues that Nintendo decides to host will likely follow the For Glory ruleset, and it would be that meta that would be the standard for those events, with any other metas being an afterthought.

So really, it depends on who the TO is (Nintendo or otherwise), the venue, yadda yadda. "Smashboards Singles" can peacefully coexist alongside For Glory, in all likelyhood, because the two metas will be managed by different parties. Only balance patches could throw monkey wrenches into this relationship, but that remains to be seen.

Really, the case for having official For Glory meta tournaments at unofficial venues only gains relevance if Nintendo does not push their own meta. If For Glory ends up being different from standard rules and yet also competitively viable and fun, that builds a case for making room for it at places like EVO or MLG or yadda yadda. That's a lot of "what ifs," though.

 

[RODO]

The whole reason behind building a meta game is fairness. We already know that stages with platforms are viable due to having played on them for the past 3 smash games. There is no reason to have a meta built only around FD just because that's how Nintendo views competitive play. It would also be pretty boring imo.

 

[SnappyJ]

The whole reason behind building a meta game is fairness. We already know that stages with platforms are viable due to having played on them for the past 3 smash games. There is no reason to have a meta built only around FD just because that's how Nintendo views competitive play. It would also be pretty boring imo.

I agree, we don't need to pare down the stage list to FD only, but I totally see why Sakurai is doing that for their online mode. I've always enjoyed a wider variety of stages, and stages with platforms have always meshed well with my play style. But who knows, maybe we'll find something in Smash 4 that will make the FD clone stages the most logical selection. Honestly I'm satisfied that the online mode even has a competitive playlist!

 

[mimgrim]

From what I understand in competitive Pokemon. Smogon focuses more on 1 on 1 team of 6 while Nintendo/Gamfreak focus more on 2 on 2 team of 6.

As such. It would be rather funny if Nintendo started doing VGC Smash tournaments and they focused more on doubles instead of singles as opposite of what we do lol. That could definitely work though. Not to sure if both focused on single though.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think it's a major stretch to just assume that Nintendo's invitational is going to use "For Glory" style rules, especially since that would seemingly be time mode matches which would raise major objections from basically all strong players. If Nintendo gets involved as a major player in the tournament scene, we'll certainly have to take note and work with them, but it's premature to either assume they'll do that or to assume they'll use any given ruleset. For now, let's wait and see on that front.

Also, we really shouldn't be looking to the Pokemon people for any sort of guidance; as far as I can tell, most of them don't even actually play Pokemon if by "Pokemon" we mean "Pokemon" and not "computer program that infringes on Pokemon's copyrights and trademarks". Their methods of making rulesets are also just dreadful and there are many other very dire issues there; I don't want to whip out the big anti-smogon rant here, but I'll just say that that is not a good direction for our community.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

The competitive scene isn't something that can be planned in advance. It will evolve organically around the desires of the community. The best thing we can do is experiment; if it turns out that certain facets of the game lend to a more interesting metagame, people will use them. If we end up with more than one popular style, people will want to play them. There's no need to force it.

 

[Aninymouse]

I think it's a major stretch to just assume that Nintendo's invitational is going to use "For Glory" style rules, especially since that would seemingly be time mode matches which would raise major objections from basically all strong players. If Nintendo gets involved as a major player in the tournament scene, we'll certainly have to take note and work with them, but it's premature to either assume they'll do that or to assume they'll use any given ruleset. For now, let's wait and see on that front.

Also, we really shouldn't be looking to the Pokemon people for any sort of guidance; as far as I can tell, most of them don't even actually play Pokemon if by "Pokemon" we mean "Pokemon" and not "computer program that infringes on Pokemon's copyrights and trademarks". Their methods of making rulesets are also just dreadful and there are many other very dire issues there; I don't want to whip out the big anti-smogon rant here, but I'll just say that that is not a good direction for our community.

Hey AA, nice to see you around these parts.

I do agree that Smogon is not something to look to in the case of Smash.

And yeah, "wait and see" is once again the best approach, here.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think it's a major stretch to just assume that Nintendo's invitational is going to use "For Glory" style rules, especially since that would seemingly be time mode matches which would raise major objections from basically all strong players. If Nintendo gets involved as a major player in the tournament scene, we'll certainly have to take note and work with them, but it's premature to either assume they'll do that or to assume they'll use any given ruleset. For now, let's wait and see on that front.

Also, we really shouldn't be looking to the Pokemon people for any sort of guidance; as far as I can tell, most of them don't even actually play Pokemon if by "Pokemon" we mean "Pokemon" and not "computer program that infringes on Pokemon's copyrights and trademarks". Their methods of making rulesets are also just dreadful and there are many other very dire issues there; I don't want to whip out the big anti-smogon rant here, but I'll just say that that is not a good direction for our community.

trust me i know how painful their rule making system is and i really don't want that here. im just saying that if Nintendo supports tournaments for VGC (not not unlikely) in for glory stand point which i think is likely it might just be a good think to think about in this point in time. Balancing to meta's shouldn't be to hard.