The Cloud matchup

[TheRealSkid]

hi fellow mewtwo mains. So cloud is already giving me trouble. I don't really know what to say here, i even tried pit link and fox and all 3 just don't do too well against an even decent cloud player. I was playing this one scrub on FG who was noticeably bad and nearly beat me. Are there any tips for the matchup in general and maybe what counter picks to use?

 

[Sonicninja115]

MU inexperience and other then that it is too soon to say. We have a general MU forum, but It might be hidden pretty deep.

 

[Y2Kay]

MU inexperience and other then that it is too soon to say. We have a general MU forum, but It might be hidden pretty deep.

The MU thread has disappear into the gates of the Underworld. No finding it now

 

[TheRealSkid]

In that case, should we start a new one? Y2Kay

 

[Sonicninja115]

It is still usable I will post in it to bring it up for you

 

[Chiroz]

Back-Throw and then hit Cloud with any move and I mean any move (even baby Shadow Balls). That's mostly going to be the matchup for Cloud vs anyone. Just think of Cloud as a less severe Little Mac. He hits hard and fast, but not as hard or fast as Little Mac. He dies pretty easy and is very easy to gimp just like Little Mac.

Don't try to run at Cloud just because he's charging. Just charge yourself or make a methodical approach.

Everything else I would say it's still too early to really grasp anything.

 

[Ridel]

I wrote a long write-up in the official MU thread if your interested.

 

[Ryusuta]

I wrote a long write-up in the official MU thread if your interested.

Link, please?

 

[Ridel]

http://smashboards.com/threads/poke...l-matchup-thread.398034/page-15#post-20612404

 

[J2_]

I only have experience against some friends playing Cloud, but I've noticed a couple things that could help:

1. You can reflect his normal nB, but not his LB nB. RIP that stock.
2. Your Uair is basically rendered null and void for this MU with his Dair. It just has a bigger hitbox that's out too long; risk not worth the reward IMO. Stick to Bairs.
3. You can spike his upB if timed correctly. Not sure about his LB upB.

 

[meleebrawler]

Why exactly can't Mewtwo reflect Limit Blade Beam? I mean, it's certainly difficult with it's speed, but not impossible.

Don't bother trying to intercept Limit Climhazzard, it snaps too well and goes absurdly fast and far. Just be content that you've forced him to use his limit.

 

[J2_]

Why exactly can't Mewtwo reflect Limit Blade Beam? I mean, it's certainly difficult with it's speed, but not impossible.

Don't bother trying to intercept Limit Climhazzard, it snaps too well and goes absurdly fast and far. Just be content that you've forced him to use his limit.

Maybe it's breaking the limits of Mewtwo's confusion?

Or maybe it was just an oversight that'll be patched soon. Who knows?

 

[meleebrawler]

Maybe it's breaking the limits of Mewtwo's confusion?

Or maybe it was just an oversight that'll be patched soon. Who knows?

Or maybe your confusion timing is off. It takes over 50% to break Confusion.

 

[Ryusuta]

Wait, what? You absolutely CAN reflect LB Blade Beam. I've gotten some kills off of doing just that. I think you might be having a timing issue. ^^;

 

[Karsticles]

Fun fact: uncharged Shadow Ball folllowed by a reflected LB Blade Beam combos.

Anyway, I disagree with Raykz's approach. Charging Shadow Ball is a bad use of time in this matchup's neutral, because Cloud's LB attacks are WAY better than Shadow Ball. We need to pressure him constantly to keep him from charging, because his Final Attack KOs us at 55%, and LB side B has startup invincibility and KOs at around 75%. Letting Cloud charge Limit Break makes the matchup much more difficult, and he is defensive, so he's happy to shield-cancel Limit Break charging every time we get a charged Shadow Ball and play defensively until we let it go.

Here are two sets I've played against people learning Cloud. The first is better play from me than the second, but maybe they can act as a springboard for discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZoViV8qJfY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YglOqbPuFSM

 

[Chiroz]

Fun fact: uncharged Shadow Ball folllowed by a reflected LB Blade Beam combos.

Anyway, I disagree with Raykz's approach. Charging Shadow Ball is a bad use of time in this matchup's neutral, because Cloud's LB attacks are WAY better than Shadow Ball. We need to pressure him constantly to keep him from charging, because his Final Attack KOs us at 55%, and LB side B has startup invincibility and KOs at around 75%. Letting Cloud charge Limit Break makes the matchup much more difficult, and he is defensive, so he's happy to shield-cancel Limit Break charging every time we get a charged Shadow Ball and play defensively until we let it go.

Here are two sets I've played against people learning Cloud. The first is better play from me than the second, but maybe they can act as a springboard for discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZoViV8qJfY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YglOqbPuFSM

My approach doesn't come from playing Mewtwo, it comes from playing Cloud (the slight bit that I have).

Cloud's charge is cancelled in 1 frame and puts you back into neutral, which means that a Cloud that's charging just might as well be standing still not charging. You wouldn't just charge into an opponent who is just standing there on almost any scenario.

I can't tell you how many people eat 100+% before they understand that the fact that I am charging means in no way that I am vulnerable or have limited options (as Cloud).

I didn't say "don't approach", I said don't charge. Approach methodically and like you would any other char that's just waiting around.




Also I am coming back from a 3+ months hiatus AND I am also picking up Cloud, so I will probably suck, but... if anyone wants to practice the matchup I am all for picking Cloud and playing .

 

[Browny]

I thought I posted this here... oops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJagYXR55A

Clouds sideb and upb oos are completely nullified vs mewtwo. Hitting him out of sideb is easy, reacting to the upb oos in time with the correct choice of airdodge or far away is a bit trickier.

 

[Ryusuta]

From my experience, Mewtwo is definitely at the advantage, but not a massive one. I feel like he gets so much more out of neutral because Cloud has so few safe options and so many minus frames on shield. Cloud can also be hardcore gimped by Mewtwo offstage.

That said, Cloud's always got YOLO limit breaks and between Mewtwo's weight and Cloud's kill power, all it takes is two or three big mistakes and Mewtwo is flat-out dead, no ifs ands or buts.

 

[Browny]

Treat cloud like you do fox and shield camp at like, 60% onwards when he has limit break. The worst thing he can do is a throw which is completely non-threatening and gives you time to charge shadowball while recovering then return to neutral with FCSB in hand. You will eventually force cloud to sacrifice his limit break with his upb or if youre lucky theyll get desperate and waste it on blade beam that you reflect back.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that we should start off by admitting one thing; Cloud is overpowered, you may now presume to discharge your anger.
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Now that we're back, I'd say the best option when fighting a Cloud is to charge at them, yet not attack; to dash full speed at them, yet keep on dashing; reads, punishes, tactics... do whatever it takes to make sure you don't get hit, as doing such, is an absolute detriment to not only your stock, but to the match. It is of utmost importance that you employ dishonorable tactics when fighting Cloud; camp, shield-spam, throw-spam, shield-grab, even roll if need-be. Abuse the overtly defense game that is Smash 4. Though offense may be good, Smash 4 is like Brawl, which, in turn, is like Chess, or Cards; all strategy, no conflict. This, is how you beat Cloud; be contrary.