Tengu Man's Mountain - Tornado Hold Theorycraft and Discussion

[ChopperDave]

It seems like there's some interest in talking about the competitive potential of Tornado Hold, one of Mega Man's custom UpB moves, so I figured I would go ahead and get the discussion started. I don't want to claim this as the definitive guide for the move, but I'm happy to share what I've found so far in the lab. Let's get started!

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I. HOW THE MOVE WORKS (?)

Tornado Hold is... a complicated move. I've done my best to piece together how it works from both observation and the Hitbox Data that @ Indigo Jeans helpfully compiled.

On a clean hit (i.e., if you catch your opponent with the first strike of the move), Tornado will strike a total of 5 times for 6% in damage. The first 4 strikes will do 1% damage each. The last strike, a "strong finisher," will do 2% damage and has slightly stronger knockback and a different knockback angle. Whichever hit ends up being the last hit (most often the "strong finisher" but sometimes a "weak strike") sends the victim into a tumble state, and can stage spike, rarely.

We don't yet have strong frame data for the move. In general it seems roughly equivalent to Rush Coil, but a little slower on start-up and without the invincibility frames. According to @Doval's thread, Rush Coil sends you airborne on F9 and gives you IASA on F41, and Hatsune says that Tornado Hold's hitboxes are 8 frames apart. Interpret that how you will.

The Tornado Hold hitbox is both extremely large vertically (like, three Mega Mans in height) and deceptively small horizontally (unless you're right on top of someone, it generally won't hit). Where your victim ends up dependson where they are in the whirlwind" when they get hit last. There is a semi-predictable pattern to this, which I've tried to describe with the simple diagram below:

Here's what I've observed:

• If your opponent approaches the TH hitbox from the side and gets hit by the 1st or 2nd "weak strikes," he'll almost always get spat out diagonally up on the same side by the "strong finisher" (green arrows).

• If your opponent approaches the TH hitbox from the top and gets hit by the 1st or 2nd "weak strikes," he'll almost always get spat spat out diagonally up on the opposite side, usually by one of the "weak strikes" rather than the "strong finisher," so the trajectory will be a little different (purple arrows).

• If your opponent approaches the TH hitbox from the bottom (i.e. you drop it on top of him) and gets hit by the 1st or 2nd "weak strikes," he can get spat out diagonally up in either direction by the "strong finisher" (yellow arrows). It's kind of a wild card. Watch his motion in the whirlwind -- oftentimes you can predict where he'll get launched if you count out the strikes and see where he ends up before the "strong finisher" strike.

• If your opponent starts getting hit by the 3rd or 4th "weak strikes," what happens can get... unpredictable (red arrows). This typically happens when your opponent tries to airdodge through the hitbox but fails to avoid all the strikes, or uses a move with invincibility frames to get partially through the hitbox. Generally, he'll get launched by either a "weak strike" or the "strong finisher" before he reaches the top of the whirlwind, resulting in him getting spat out lower and much more horizontally than usual--usually on the opposite side of the tornado from where he entered.

The key takeaway here is that you generally want to use TH in such a way that you get a clean hit from the side, i.e. you want to set it up as a trap that your opponent runs, jumps, or recovers into. You can still work with the other types of hits, of course.

II. COMBOS AND FOLLOWUPS

Alright, so now that we've got some of the complicated stuff out of the way, how do we use the move?

One useful thing to keep in mind is that the move sends your opponent tumbling for a few precious frames after your IASA frame. This means that TH often gives us a free follow-up.

At low to mid-high percents, a clean hit ending with the "strong finisher" can almost always be chained into a double jumped bair, if you orient Mega Man in the right direction. (Use the b reversing technique to do this.) Double jumped fair and nair can also work, but the nature of bair's hitboxes make it your most reliable follow-up.

At high percents--or if your opponent DI's up and away--a double jumped Danger Wrap can be a followup to a clean hit ending in a "strong finisher." I think fall speed (h/t: @ Indigo Jeans ) may have something to do with this as well. For example, it seems we can pretty reliably hit Sheik from 80% onward with TH -> DJ -> DW, and it will usually kill her.

Diagonally thrown Hyper Bomb will hit at almost all percents, so it can be a nice and reliable followup option if you take it, though the knockback isn't as strong as bair and Danger Wrap. I also find that fast falling under your opponent into a uair, while not strictly a combo, can often be an effective surprise and sometimes results in roof KOs.

III. CANCELLING TORNADO HOLD'S LANDLAG (h/t @ mega4000 )

It's possible for Mega Man to cancel the landing lag from all his UpBs, an Tornado Hold is no exception. I illustrate a few useful ways to do this in the video below.

In short, Metal Blade, Danger Wrap, Leaf Shield, 3-lemon barrage, and fast falled single lemon (what I call the "lemon drop") are all very solid options for cancelling the landing lag from Tornado Hold. Even autocalncelled fair, bair, and uair can shorten the landing lag, slightly. You really should never land on the stage after a Tornado Hold without doing something to reduce or cancel the landing lag.

IV. LEDGE CANCEL

One important property of Tornado Hold is that it can be cancelled into a ledge grab... once.

Basically, Mega Man gains the ability to grab the ledge about halfway up the tornado. The tornado hitbox does not go away or get shortened at all when he does this. This means that you can run off stage, fast fall, and drop a gigantic vertical hitbox in front of the ledge, preventing your opponent from getting a ledge grab and giving yourself a lot of follow-up options. This is pretty awesome.

What's more, because you "cancelled" Mega Man's rising animation, he can act sooner than TH's normal IASA frame, using any of his ledge options. Nice!

The developers must have realized that this could be pretty abuseable, so there's a catch: you can't ledge cancel twice in a row. If you try to drop from ledge and pull the same trick again, Mega Man will miss the grab and you'll be forced to land on stage. No bueno. The only way that Mega Man will regrab the ledge out of a second Tornado Hold is if he hits the ledge closer to the apex of the tornado rather than the middle.

One thing I've noticed when using Ledge Cancelled Tornado Holds is that it not infrequently spits your opponent out into the stage, leaving him vulnerable to a jab lock. If you're quick enough, you can actually double jump nair from ledge -> ftilt -> jab -> utilt, which is always awesome when you manage to pull it off.

V. LEDGE GUARDING OPTIONS

Alright, so the utility of the move should be getting pretty obvious at this point.

One of the best uses for the move is to create a giant vertical hitbox wall between your opponent and the stage. If he gets hit, you follow up with double jumped bair or Danger Wrap, then use Mega Man's solid horizontal air speed to maneuver safely back to the ledge and get ready to seal the stock. At this point your opponent will probably either be dead (if at kill percentages or easily gimped) or without his double jump and at your mercy.

There are a lot of ways you can use TH in concert with your other moves. Z-drop a metal blade to create one "hitbox wall," then use TH to create another wall right behind it. Send up a Danger Wrap to force your opponent to recover low, then shut off that route with a tornado wall. (Tornado Hold has crazy good synergy with Danger Wrap. You can time the attacks do that even if your opponent manages to airdodge the DW, the TH will still nail him.) Use a diagonally thrown Metal Blade or Leaf Shield toss to rob your opponent of his double jump, then give him no choice but to move into your waiting tornado.

VI. FREE FOLLOW-UP #1: LEDGE TRUMP

Tornado Hold seems to be one of the most effective and most consistent follow-ups to a ledge trump that Mega Man has. Simply trump, drop from ledge, TH, bair. There's little your opponent can do to get around this.

One thing he might do is actually move away from the stage, maybe while air dodging, in an attempt to avoid the tornado. If you condition your opponent to do this, you can start punishing it with a bair from ledge.

VI. FREE FOLLOW-UP #2: EDGE SLIP

Tornado Hold seems to be a guaranteed followup against most characters after an edge slip, whether it happens off a platform or off the stage. Simply run off the platform after your opponent and drop a tornado on him. This will usually set you up for a free bair follow-up, and will sometimes even stage spike for a kill. I've seen this happen a few times now and I've been too stupid to save a replay even though it is totally great when it happens.

This can make Mega Man's ledge pressure pretty nasty. If you corner your opponent and manage to push him off a platform using sweetspotted jabs, TH -> bair will tack on another 18% damage and send him far from the stage, sometimes without his double jump if he panicked and tried to jump out of the edge slip.

VII. JUGGLING

By using the landing lag cancelling techniques described above (particularly, Metal Blade and Lemon Drop), you can use Tornado Hold to juggle characters while in advantage. This is super great for Mega Man, as he normally has trouble maintaining juggles after one or two uairs.

For one juggle approach, try using Tornado Hold from standing, throw a Metal Blade from the apex, then land (closing the distance as necessary with a dash) and Tornado Hold again.

For another juggle approach, try using Tornado Hold, Danger Wrap to cancel the landing, then Tornado Hold again.

For yet another juggle approach, simply use Lemon Drop to chain Tornado Holds into each other until you land a clean hit that gives you an opportunity for a bair or Danger Wrap followup.

One of my favorite things to do is send up a Danger Wrap in one direction, a uair up the other, then Tornado Hold up the middle. Using autocancels and landing lag cancels, you can really string these moves together to apply some nasty vertical pressure and make recovering to stage difficult.

Another handy application is to use Tornado Hold as an anti-juggle. If your opponent relies on uairs and usmashes for kills (hello, and ), this can be a nice way to turn the tables on them as soon as they commit. Keep in mind that you can still double jump and use your landing lag cancel techs afterwards, so all is not lost if you miss a read.

VII. STAGE CONTROL AND OTHER ON-STAGE APPLICATIONS

Because Tornado Hold basically drops a giant vertical barrier that reaches up past most characters' full hop heights, it can be very, very good for stage control. Simple dropping a tornado then Lemon Dropping behind it can be a good and rather safe way to create some space between you and your opponent.

One of my favorite uses of Tornado Hold is as a roll punish. If your opponent often tries to roll behind you or otherwise get up in your space, dropping a Tornado Hold will often punish him. Even when it doesn't, dropping a Tornado Hold and using Lemon Drop to cancel the landing is useful for resetting into neutral.

Another on-stage application is to use Tornado Hold Out of Shield. While Tornado Hold isn't Mega Man's quickest OoS option, it can still be very good against certain approaches--particularly dash grabs and dash attacks that would otherwise cross you up. Against playerswho like to use empty hops and spaced aerials to pressure and harass (hi there, , , and) , Tornado Hold can make them think twice.

Similarly, you can use the move aggressively as an anti-shield grab. If you're closing in and you expect your opponent might try to shield grab you, jump over him and drop a TH on his head. A direct hit against a shielding opponent will keep them locked down for quite some time--oftentimes long enough for you to Lemon Drop behind them and continue to pressure them.

VIII. A NOTE ON RECOVERY

I'm not going to sugarcoat this: Tornado Hold is Mega Man's worst recovery move. If you take it, you're going to die earlier than you would with Rush Coil or Beat. Always DI upwards when hit away from the stage. Beware low knockback moves like Mario's dsmash.

There is a silver lining here, though, and it's an obvious one. Tornado Hold gives you a big ol' hitbox that reaches above you, and will stop quite a few gimp attempts in their tracks. If you think your opponent is going to try to stage spike you, lure him under the stage, tech the hit, then punish it with your Tornado Hold as you recover to ledge. Who knows... you might even get a stage spike! That'll show him for being greedy.

VIII. CONCLUSION

I hope you guys find this a helpful launching point for more exploration into this move. I personally think it's been underdeveloped and could potentially make Mega Man's edgeguarding game even scarier than it already is. As always, if people have some data, observations, or applications that I missed, I'll happily add it to the OP and give you a credit!

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Incredible stuff! I knew about it comboing into BAir and FAir, but I hadn't thought of Danger Wrap or even Hyper Bomb.

By the way, on the topic of weight factoring into it, I suspect its actually closer to (fast) fall speed and gravity (HOW QUICKLY the character reaches their max fall speed, now how quickly they fall at that speed). Sheik has always had pretty high gravity despite being relatively light (she sits below the 100 benchmark, at 85. This is lighter than Smash Shulk which is a pretty big deal). So besides Sheik, I'm sure Falco, Fox, and Greninja can get nailed by Danger Wrap out of Tornado Hold.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Tornado Hold is pretty great and I use it on rare occasions when I feel like using a custom Mega Man. As stated, it makes for a great edge guard and a great anti-juggling tool that doesn't take away any of your other options after using it.

 

[p1ay6ack]

this thread needs megaman videos of tornado hold being used in combos. tornado hold is an awesome move offensively, and it has led me to some pretty cool combo setups.

 

[mega4000]

I was waiting for this, I hope you keep posting about this weapon because Tornado Hold, Danger Wrap and Metal Blade are the future of the mega mans meta game. Shields are interchangable, but those 3 weapons are the best of the best. Gimping with Tornado Hold is epic.

 

[AnchorTea]

Are you god, or Dr. Light himself? Because you make the best guides out there.

 

[mega4000]

Are you god, or Dr. Light himself? Because you make the best guides out there.

He is almost Dr. Light status. When he makes a guide about plant barrier (which he will do in the future, because he will hit the lab with that weapon and starting realize the difference between leaf shield and plant barrier) and he does a beat guide, he will achieve that goal and become the true megaman creator xDD

 

[ChopperDave]

One thing we discussed over on the customs thread (h/t: @ mega4000 ) that I haven't touched on here is TH's interaction with Mega Man's downB moves, i.e. Leaf Shield, Plant Barrier and Skull Barrier.

If you use a downB move immediately after TH, it will cancel the landing lag for TH. Essentially, you give up your ability to fast fall and airdodge in exchange for a bunch of hitboxes/reflectboxes rotating around you and the ability to act (e.g shield, crouch, dash, grab) as soon as you touch down on the ground. This is often a pretty worthwhile trade. Keep in mind that you can b-reverse Mega Man's downB activations to make them extra unpredictable.

The neat thing here is that you can use TH to help you safely get up a downB. By dropping a tornado on the stage, you'll stuff your opponent's approach attempts. If they someone manage to get around it and try to punish your landing with a dash attack or projectile, you can either let your shield/barrier block or reflect it, or you can double jump over it and still land relatively safely with yor shield/barrier up. This can make for pretty amazing stage control against certain characters. It's also pretty effective when your opponent is hanging from the ledge--drop a TH off the ledge to force a reaction, hit them with a bair or Danger Wrap if you catch them in the tornado, fire up LS and grab them if you don't.

One important thing to note is that while Mega Man's downBs will cancel TH's landing lag, you still have to deal with the downB'a startup lag. This generally means that you can to do TH->PB at full hop height or higher, TH-LS at short hop height or higher, and TH->SB at pretty much any height off the ground.

 

[mega4000]

One thing we discussed over on the customs thread (h/t: @ mega4000 ) that I haven't touched on here is TH's interaction with Mega Man's downB moves, i.e. Leaf Shield, Plant Barrier and Skull Barrier.

If you use a downB move immediately after TH, it will cancel the landing lag for TH. Essentially, you give up your ability to fast fall and airdodge in exchange for a bunch of hitboxes/reflectboxes rotating around you and the ability to act (e.g shield, crouch, dash, grab) as soon as you touch down on the ground. This is often a pretty worthwhile trade. Keep in mind that you can b-reverse Mega Man's downB activations to make them extra unpredictable.

The neat thing here is that you can use TH to help you safely get up a downB. By dropping a tornado on the stage, you'll stuff your opponent's approach attempts. If they someone manage to get around it and try to punish your landing with a dash attack or projectile, you can either let your shield/barrier block or reflect it, or you can double jump over it and still land relatively safely with yor shield/barrier up. This can make for pretty amazing stage control against certain characters. It's also pretty effective when your opponent is hanging from the ledge--drop a TH off the ledge to force a reaction, hit them with a bair or Danger Wrap if you catch them in the tornado, fire up LS and grab them if you don't.

One important thing to note is that while Mega Man's downBs will cancel TH's landing lag, you still have to deal with the downB'a startup lag. This generally means that you can to do TH->PB at full hop height or higher, TH-LS at short hop height or higher, and TH->SB at pretty much any height off the ground.

Testing this more, I've concluded that you were right and leaf shield is way better in this combo than plant barrier, because you can use this as a gimp tool with the fastest startup, no landing lag and of course throwing it if he trys to run away. Also you should mention two things about tornado hold: 1 every single b move after any up b will get phantom lag if it was used to cancel the landing lag so you should use short hop pellet on your next jump. 2 you can do a tornado hold> nair fast fall> tornado hold to use tornado hold in succesion a lot of times without landing lag (I will look like you are activating another tornado hold without touching the ground. This thing can make your opponent gets nuts if he doesn't know how to move between every tornado hold.

 

[ChopperDave]

Testing this more, I've concluded that you were right and leaf shield is way better in this combo than plant barrier, because you can use this as a gimp tool with the fastest startup, no landing lag and of course throwing it if he trys to run away. Also you should mention two things about tornado hold: 1 every single b move after any up b will get phantom lag if it was used to cancel the landing lag so you should use short hop pellet on your next jump. 2 you can do a tornado hold> nair fast fall> tornado hold to use tornado hold in succesion a lot of times without landing lag (I will look like you are activating another tornado hold without touching the ground. This thing can make your opponent gets nuts if he doesn't know how to move between every tornado hold.

Ooooh, that's neat. I would have never thought to Tornado Hold, then fast fall a single pellet to cancel into another Tornado Hold.

I think there may be a way to use the fast fall nair trick to get rid of our landing lag from TH almost entirely. I can do it sometimes and fail to do it others, so I need to lab this a little more to figure out the proper timing.

 

[mega4000]

Ooooh, that's neat. I would have never thought to Tornado Hold, then fast fall a single pellet to cancel into another Tornado Hold.

I think there may be a way to use the fast fall nair trick to get rid of our landing lag from TH almost entirely. I can do it sometimes and fail to do it others, so I need to lab this a little more to figure out the proper timing.

I've done this perfectly since a long time ago xDD I thought you already knew that because you really know way more about this weapon than me. The timing is just doing tornado hold, then the nair and at last the fast fall, then start mashing another tornado hold. We should have a match in order to share tech about tornado hold someday . I've a lot of tech that maybe most people don't know, but It's really difficult for me to explain without videos and I don't have a capture card

 

[ChopperDave]

Alright, I labbed this a little more over my lunch break and I have some really neat findings.

1) All B moves cancel Tornado Hold's landing/phantom lag, if used on TH's IASA frame. It's not just limited to the downB. That means you can Tornado Hold, throw a downward angled Metal Blade, land, and immediately do any of your moves from neutral position. You can even buffer a utilt or usmash on landing. HOWEVER, if you double jump at all before you land, you'll once again get some lag when you touch down ("phantom lag"). Unless....

2) If you use nair to fire a single lemon and fast fall, you will cancel some or nearly all of Tornado Hold's landing/phantom lag. I'm going to call this "Lemon Cancelling." Basically, what you're doing here is replacing TH's lag with the lemons' end lag, which is much lower. How much of a "cancel" you get depends on how high you are. If you TH from ground and Lemon Cancel your landing, you'll get a few frames of lag, though still much better than the normal TH landing lag, and you can still jump. If you short hop -> TH -> Lemon Cancel, you'll get negligible frames of lag. If you full hop -> TH -> Lemon Cancel, you can almost seamlessly do any of your moves from neutral position.

This lets you cancel the phantom lag from double jumping after TH! So for example you can short hop, TH, toss a Metal Blade downward, double jump, Lemon Cancel, then do anything you want.

HOWEVER, the important thing to note here is that Lemon Cancelling only works when you land during the nair animation. Normally this isn't a problem. But if you're really high and attempt to Lemon Cancel, and the nair animation finishes before you touch the ground, TH's phantom lag will come back. You can generally avoid this by firing two pellets rather than one, or by falling to the correct height before Lemon Cancelling.

3) These techs work with Rush Coil and Beat, too. The thing is, those moves don't create a giant vertical hitbox, but TH does!

I'm super excited about the potential these cancel techs create. These improve TH's on-stage viability massively. You can actually use it for stage control and juggling now! Thanks for clueing me into these, @ mega4000 .

 

[mega4000]

Alright, I labbed this a little more over my lunch break and I have some really neat findings.

1) All B moves cancel Tornado Hold's landing/phantom lag, if used on TH's IASA frame. It's not just limited to the downB. That means you can Tornado Hold, throw a downward angled Metal Blade, land, and immediately do any of your moves from neutral position. You can even buffer a utilt or usmash on landing. HOWEVER, if you double jump at all before you land, you'll once again get some lag when you touch down ("phantom lag"). Unless....

2) If you use nair to fire a single lemon and fast fall, you will cancel some or nearly all of Tornado Hold's landing/phantom lag. I'm going to call this "Lemon Cancelling." Basically, what you're doing here is replacing TH's lag with the lemons' end lag, which is much lower. How much of a "cancel" you get depends on how high you are. If you TH from ground and Lemon Cancel your landing, you'll get a few frames of lag, though still much better than the normal TH landing lag, and you can still jump. If you short hop -> TH -> Lemon Cancel, you'll get negligible frames of lag. If you full hop -> TH -> Lemon Cancel, you can almost seamlessly do any of your moves from neutral position.

This lets you cancel the phantom lag from double jumping after TH! So for example you can short hop, TH, toss a Metal Blade downward, double jump, Lemon Cancel, then do anything you want.

HOWEVER, the important thing to note here is that Lemon Cancelling only works when you land during the nair animation. Normally this isn't a problem. But if you're really high and attempt to Lemon Cancel, and the nair animation finishes before you touch the ground, TH's phantom lag will come back. You can generally avoid this by firing two pellets rather than one, or by falling to the correct height before Lemon Cancelling.

3) These techs work with Rush Coil and Beat, too. The thing is, those moves don't create a giant vertical hitbox, but TH does!

I'm super excited about the potential these cancel techs create. These improve TH's on-stage viability massively. You can actually use it for stage control and juggling now! Thanks for clueing me into these, @ mega4000 .

No problem! Seriously, we should share tech playing online someday, because I think every tech I've discovered you can use it and discover way more because your analysis method. Seriously as one guy said you make the best guides!

 

[CopShowGuy]

Fun stuff, guys!

 

[ChopperDave]

I made a quick video to explain some of these landing lag cancelling techs. These techs will work for Rush Coil and Beat, too, but I think Tornado Hold has the most exciting potential applications.

 

[Creativion]

Dude for the follow up hit, Slash Claw is super useful. If you use Tornado Hold while right above them, they'll get sent up. While they're still being brought up, you'll probably be out be then. So, if you move correctly, you can use your Slash Claw to hit them. And since Slash Claw is a K.O. move, it can launch them off the stage at high percentages.

 

[ChopperDave]

I went ahead and updated the OP with some of the stuff discussed above. Using all these handy landing lag cancelling tricks makes Tornado Hold far more useful for juggles and stage control than I initially thought.

 

[Locke 06]

How do you edge guard against someone using Tornado Hold? The tornado is a transcendent disjoint that covers his sides and continues even when he grabs the ledge. Is the only weakness from above or projectiles?

 

[ChopperDave]

How do you edge guard against someone using Tornado Hold? The tornado is a transcendent disjoint that covers his sides and continues even when he grabs the ledge. Is the only weakness from above or projectiles?

Some disjoints can safely slap Mega Man out of it. I've gotten punished by well spaced aerials by Ike and Shulk when using it in neutral.

I imagine that it's theory possible to use a disjointed aerial so that it stage spikes Mega Man out of Tornado Hold, but the timing would have to be pretty tight.

 

[Azazel]

Found an amazing combo with TOrnado hold. It is also uses the double danger warp glitch. it kills if bad DI and perfect spacing with the double danger warp, otherwise it does huge damage
F-tilt > Jab > Edgeslip > Tornado Hold > DJ Hard Knuckle > Double Danger warp > fair/Uair/Danger Warp/(Tornado hold > Bair/Dangerwarp)

Tornado hold > DJ > Hard Knuckle is a set-up for Double Danger Warp glitch, so it doesn't need precise timing.

This almost does 60%

The opponent can tech Dair after 45%, you are in a good position to tech chase, make a good prediction.

If you space the double danger warp so that Only 1 connects the other will float up and the opponent will fly into (Ofcourse DI can will affect whether or not it does) it resulting in a roofio.

I'll get a video out asap. And no slow motion this time Its pretty easy to do in real time. its hard to replicate the double danger warp roofio.

The Edgeslip is a set-up and the rest is a combo. it would have been possible to Utilt instead of Danger Warp if there wasn't the stupid phantom lag. :/

Tornado hold is best up special because it combos into Dair, even counters spikes likes rush coil. its not even a debate anymore.

 

[mega4000]

Found an amazing combo with TOrnado hold. It is also uses the double danger warp glitch. it kills if bad DI and perfect spacing with the double danger warp, otherwise it does huge damage
F-tilt > Jab > Edgeslip > Tornado Hold > DJ Hard Knuckle > Double Danger warp > fair/Uair/Danger Warp/(Tornado hold > Bair/Dangerwarp)

Tornado hold > DJ > Hard Knuckle is a set-up for Double Danger Warp glitch, so it doesn't need precise timing.

This almost does 60%

The opponent can tech Dair after 45%, you are in a good position to tech chase, make a good prediction.

If you space the double danger warp so that Only 1 connects the other will float up and the opponent will fly into (Ofcourse DI can will affect whether or not it does) it resulting in a roofio.

I'll get a video out asap. And no slow motion this time Its pretty easy to do in real time. its hard to replicate the double danger warp roofio.

The Edgeslip is a set-up and the rest is a combo. it would have been possible to Utilt instead of Danger Warp if there wasn't the stupid phantom lag. :/

Tornado hold is best up special because it combos into Dair, even counters spikes likes rush coil. its not even a debate anymore.

FINALLY! FINALLY SOMEONE SEES THE LIGHT! pls post video! :'(

 

[Azazel]

FINALLY! FINALLY SOMEONE SEES THE LIGHT! pls post video! :'(

Here you go

Inb4 that Dair is techable and this is a bad combo. Tornado Hold will either launch them toward or away from the stage. You either Spike them off stage or spike them onto a platform if the stage has platform (smashville and battlefield). It is very easy to tech chase on a platform.

If you are feeling confident, Nair (instead of danger warp) just b4 you hit the ground and hit them with the Jab/F-tilt hitbox and edgeslip > Tornado Hold again.

If they don't tech the dair, Bair is a guaranteed option as well.

it was done on lvl 9, they are good about using a get-up option as soon as possible. Edgeslips and footstools are untechable

 

[mega4000]

Here you go

Inb4 that Dair is techable and this is a bad combo. Tornado Hold will either launch them toward or away from the stage. You either Spike them off stage or spike them onto a platform if the stage has platform (smashville and battlefield). It is very easy to tech chase on a platform.

If you are feeling confident, Nair (instead of danger warp) just b4 you hit the ground and hit them with the Jab/F-tilt hitbox and edgeslip > Tornado Hold again.

If they don't tech the dair, Bair is a guaranteed option as well.

dammit..... holy crap.... OMG!!! THAT WAS FREAKING AMAZING!

 

[Azazel]

I forgot to mention, if you can Jab > edgeslip > Footstool > Tornado Hold if possible to ensure Tornado Hold lands. Adding a footstool gives you WAY bigger frame advantage then just a simple edgeslip..

if they are floaty it is always possible,
fast fallers you have to have perfect spacing and Jab them so they edgeslip the same time the end lag of jab ends and
for some them is impossible since they are fast fallers and they have high traction so they don't slide far.

Luigi is floaty and has low traction so it be ok to use F-tilt since he'll slide far anyway.
Jigglypuff has very high traction, you'd have to be very close to the edge and jabbing is a must.

I haven't labbed Jab > edgeslip very much so experiment for yourself.

I'd say Jab > edgeslip is practical since you can cover ledge options with jab.

 

[Azazel]

Dude for the follow up hit, Slash Claw is super useful. If you use Tornado Hold while right above them, they'll get sent up. While they're still being brought up, you'll probably be out be then. So, if you move correctly, you can use your Slash Claw to hit them. And since Slash Claw is a K.O. move, it can launch them off the stage at high percentages.

Don't forget, TH > Uair kills at ~63% (floatys only, Danger warp is better for fast fallers)
also just for damage, TH > Dair(non-spiking hitbox) is optimal

 

[CopShowGuy]

This is some serious stuff.

 

[mega4000]

Don't forget, TH > Uair kills at ~63% (floatys only, Danger warp is better for fast fallers)
also just for damage, TH > Dair(non-spiking hitbox) is optimal

dude, you are really one of those players who needs to make a guide for megaman. Seriously I think if you sum up and organize everything you know, your contribution to this character can be so big that everyone will be grateful.
Also, how do you connect tornado hold into danger wrap? everytime I try this opponent can move away very easily.

 

[Azazel]

You can combo into a jab lock with TH as well, although you need platforms, but it is interesting how much is possible through this move.

 

[ChopperDave]

dude, you are really one of those players who needs to make a guide for megaman. Seriously I think if you sum up and organize everything you know, your contribution to this character can be so big that everyone will be grateful.
Also, how do you connect tornado hold into danger wrap? everytime I try this opponent can move away very easily.

This is in the OP above, but against fast fallers, you can Tornado Hold -> double jump -> Danger Wrap within a certain percentage window (something around 70-100%) and it will KO. I still haven't tested for whether it's a true combo with DI.

 

[Azazel]

dude, you are really one of those players who needs to make a guide for megaman. Seriously I think if you sum up and organize everything you know, your contribution to this character can be so big that everyone will be grateful.
Also, how do you connect tornado hold into danger wrap? everytime I try this opponent can move away very easily.

I say Danger warp instead of uair on fast fallers because fast fallers are way less susceptible to dying to Uair and danger warp kills

Good set-up to kill immediately quick and dirty with no risk > guaranteed damage

This is why i recommend Uthrow instead of dthrow > fair since Uthrow does 1% less than Dthrow > fair but has a way better juggle angle, 90 degrees.

Spoiler

if you don't have a juggle game you don't have a megaman. Usmash and Uthrow are his go to juggling starter since they are prefcetly vertical

[/random juggling tangent]

 

[SimplyChrono]

so how do you double danger wrap again?

 

[Azazel]

so how do you double danger wrap again?

Land just as the danger warp leaves mega man. also works with ice slash
You'll notice i shoot 2 danger warps here using this glitch. Unfortunately i didn't realize i had strange spacing where one connects and the other doesn't and couldn't show off doing something silly

 

[SimplyChrono]

that sounds pretty easy to do, which is weird because i don't see too many people use it, i guess the timing is pretty strict

 

[CopShowGuy]

Super strict timing.