Tech Chasing with Falco

[WulyahmK]

I feel as if most people just soft read a tech in place or missed tech with dair, and then if the dair missed b/c the opponent rolled, the falco would follow them with another dair. This doesn't feel optimal, though.

How do you guys do it? Also, has anyone ever looked at the frame data to see what the most optimal tech chasing is?

 

[redcometchar]

What is your setup?
Dair is a pretty optimal way of doing it if you begin right on top of the tech position because you can cover basically every option just by changing your initial dash input before your short hop. Whereas falco is not fast enough to do dash regrabs like shiek or falcon on reaction, if he does a dash and short hop he can get there in time.. On top of that because of dair hitting meaty you will basically always get shine afterwards or grab, depending on how late you do the down air.
But it depends on your setup.

tech in place is vulnerable for basically everyone 21-26, and rolls are vulnerable 21-40. no techs are vulnerable for 26 frames
With a 200ms reaction (12 frames)
dash sh dair comes out frame 23 and lasts until frame (43?) fast enough to cover tech in place or no tech but stays out long enough to cover rolls, all you have to do is change your initial dash direction (if there is one at all)

If you do immediate short hop ff dair on tech in place at super low percent and hit the first possible frame you cant combo into shine i don't think but your pretty close to frame neutral so you can do shine or shine grab and its a mixup, but at least opponent cant cc. They can sdi the dair after tech in place but that's pretty next level. In that situation you could do a different late aerial as a mixup and get the same result. It also does not jab reset no tech so they cant sdi up after a jab reset to escape.

But getting to tech away like this in time is dependent on you being right on top of their tech, like after a dthrow so it depends on your setup.

But falco is so slow he does not have a ton of good tech chase option coverage stuff at least against characters with good tech rolls. Other than jumping with aerials. I don't know of any other reliable setups that cover every option.

I guess in the same instance if you shined frame 21 to cover no tech and tech, and then did a wd grab or shine / short hop bair os you could cover tech, no tech and tech in one direction (along with tech towards a ledge if your close enough) without even having to react. This setup would also give you 20 frames to position yourself correctly, which means it will work in more instances.

I think the input would look like this

21--Shine
22--Shine cooldown / Shine hitlag if hits (beginning to input jump here will give you jump on the next frame if shine didnt hit)
23--Shine jc window begins and jump squat begins / Shine hitlag if hit
24--Jumpsquat continues / Hitlag continues
25--Jumpsquat continues / Hitlag continues
26--Jumpsquat continues / Last frame of hitlag
27--Last frame of jumpsquat / Shine cooldown (Begin to input your wavedash here so if shine didn't hit you will begin chasing tech roll)
28--Airdodge lag begins / Shine jc window begins (Begin to input jump again now so if shine actually hit jump will begin
29--Airdodge lag continues / Jumpsquat begins
30--Airdodge lag continues / Jumpsquat continues
31--Airdodge lag continues / Jumpsquat continues

And so on. You can get a shine out of the wd if your distance was perfect and you will shine a tech in place or missed tech. The problem with this is it only covers 3 options if you aren't at ledge and its harder to do, But it does give you 20 frames to position yourself at the tech site which the previous setup does not allow.

These are the only methods i know of. You might be able to dash grab techs away on platforms so maybe there is more potential for platform tech chases that way but dair is really good so i think using that is best.

 

[WulyahmK]

What is your setup?
Dair is a pretty optimal way of doing it if you begin right on top of the tech position because you can cover basically every option just by changing your initial dash input before your short hop. Whereas falco is not fast enough to do dash regrabs like shiek or falcon on reaction, if he does a dash and short hop he can get there in time.. On top of that because of dair hitting meaty you will basically always get shine afterwards or grab, depending on how late you do the down air.
But it depends on your setup.

tech in place is vulnerable for basically everyone 21-26, and rolls are vulnerable 21-40. no techs are vulnerable for 26 frames
With a 200ms reaction (12 frames)
dash sh dair comes out frame 23 and lasts until frame (43?) fast enough to cover tech in place or no tech but stays out long enough to cover rolls, all you have to do is change your initial dash direction (if there is one at all)

If you do immediate short hop ff dair on tech in place at super low percent and hit the first possible frame you cant combo into shine i don't think but your pretty close to frame neutral so you can do shine or shine grab and its a mixup, but at least opponent cant cc. They can sdi the dair after tech in place but that's pretty next level. In that situation you could do a different late aerial as a mixup and get the same result. It also does not jab reset no tech so they cant sdi up after a jab reset to escape.

But getting to tech away like this in time is dependent on you being right on top of their tech, like after a dthrow so it depends on your setup.

But falco is so slow he does not have a ton of good tech chase option coverage stuff at least against characters with good tech rolls. Other than jumping with aerials. I don't know of any other reliable setups that cover every option.

I guess in the same instance if you shined frame 21 to cover no tech and tech, and then did a wd grab or shine / short hop bair os you could cover tech, no tech and tech in one direction (along with tech towards a ledge if your close enough) without even having to react. This setup would also give you 20 frames to position yourself correctly, which means it will work in more instances.

I think the input would look like this

21--Shine
22--Shine cooldown / Shine hitlag if hits (beginning to input jump here will give you jump on the next frame if shine didnt hit)
23--Shine jc window begins and jump squat begins / Shine hitlag if hit
24--Jumpsquat continues / Hitlag continues
25--Jumpsquat continues / Hitlag continues
26--Jumpsquat continues / Last frame of hitlag
27--Last frame of jumpsquat / Shine cooldown (Begin to input your wavedash here so if shine didn't hit you will begin chasing tech roll)
28--Airdodge lag begins / Shine jc window begins (Begin to input jump again now so if shine actually hit jump will begin
29--Airdodge lag continues / Jumpsquat begins
30--Airdodge lag continues / Jumpsquat continues
31--Airdodge lag continues / Jumpsquat continues

And so on. You can get a shine out of the wd if your distance was perfect and you will shine a tech in place or missed tech. The problem with this is it only covers 3 options if you aren't at ledge and its harder to do, But it does give you 20 frames to position yourself at the tech site which the previous setup does not allow.

These are the only methods i know of. You might be able to dash grab techs away on platforms so maybe there is more potential for platform tech chases that way but dair is really good so i think using that is best.

Very nice and thorough information. I was just looking at dash wd turn around uptilt reaction tech chasing. I'll make a new post on this thread talking about what I think I've found out.

 

[WulyahmK]

For reaction tech chasing, the rest of what I post is in assumption that you (falco) are right on top of where the opponent is about to land:

Missed tech: Jab reset into uptilt
Tech in place: uptilt
Tech right or left:
Frame 1: Dash right/left input
Frame 2: Turnaround or Jump input (If you're facing the opposite way that the opponent rolled, so you have to take an extra frame to turnaround before the dash.)
Frame 3: Jump input or "-"
Frame 4: -
Frame 5: -
Frame 6: -
Frame 7: -
Frame 8: Shoulder trigger input + control stick direction for wd (This is for a perfect wd; I'm not sure how frame precise this has to be to work, but I tested this frame perfect dash wd input trying to tech chase falco's tech roll. The uptilt at the end of the tech chase barely hits falco after he tech rolls, but the inputs are probably more lenient for other char's. It depends on how long the char's tech rolls are.)
Frame 9: (from here on you can start putting the control stick to the point at which it makes falco turn around. It basically buffers it, so you just have to do it by frame 18)
Frame 10: -
Frame 11: -
Frame 12: -
Frame 13: -
Frame 14: -
Frame 15: -
Frame 16: -
Frame 17: -
Frame 18: -
Frame 19: Uptilt
Frame 20: -
Frame 21: -
Frame 22: -
Frame 23: Uptilt hitbox comes out

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What your reaction time has to be to accomplish this tech chasing based on the opponent being falco:

Missed tech: 23 frames AKA 0.3833s (Missed tech is noticeable by frame 1 and lasts 26 frames. Jab comes out on frame 2.)
Tech in place: 19 frames AKA 0.3166s (Tech in place is noticeable by frame 2 and lasts 26 frames. Uptilt comes out on frame 5.)
Tech roll right or left: 15 frames AKA 0.2500s (Tech roll is noticeable by frame 2 and lasts 40 frames. The dash wd turnaround uptilt sequence has the uptilt hitbox come out on frame 23.)

 

[redcometchar]

Just some stuff i want to point out
Up tilt doesn't break asdi down crouch cancel until like 60 ish percent i think so until then they can just hold down and punish you.
There isn't much reason to jab reset here if your just gonna up tilt. raw up tilt would be easier to do on reaction since its simpler, and it would give them fewer oppertunities to escape via sdi up.

 

[WulyahmK]

Just some stuff i want to point out
Up tilt doesn't break asdi down crouch cancel until like 60 ish percent i think so until then they can just hold down and punish you.
There isn't much reason to jab reset here if your just gonna up tilt. raw up tilt would be easier to do on reaction since its simpler, and it would give them fewer oppertunities to escape via sdi up.

True, the asdi down crouch cancel would put a wrench in the uptilt. But, the tech chase knockdown doesn't really start until 45%, so the 15% in between 60% isn't too much of a deal breaker. Also, chars with smaller tech rolls than falco can probably have this tech chase replace turnaround uptilt with crouch shine. About the jab reset, I chose jab reset there b/c it comes out on frame 2 instead of 5 for uptilt, so the reaction time would be 3 frames more lenient. But it is probably more optimal to uptilt in that scenario, esp. since we're talking in terms of assuming this tech chase is going on somewhere >60% now.

 

[AndyT0073]

SHL to cover rolls

 

[WulyahmK]

SHL to cover rolls

1v1 me SPECs only

 

[krazyzyko]

Dash > SH > waveland covers a lot of horizontal ground compared to his run speed.

 

[WulyahmK]

Dash > SH > waveland covers a lot of horizontal ground compared to his run speed.

You're right that it does cover more space, but I think it takes a lot more time to do. The reason that would be better than dash wd would be if it sacrificed less than 4 frames, because the extra distance would allow shine to be used instead of uptilt which comes out on frame 5 compared to shine's frame 1.

 

[AndyT0073]

Dash > SH > Laser/Dair (Shorter tech rolls)
I feel like this is the most consistent way to cover roll away on reaction

 

[WulyahmK]

Dash > SH > Laser/Dair (Shorter tech rolls)
I feel like this is the most consistent way to cover roll away on reaction

That does seem like it works and is easy, but can't they shield/shine after the laser hits them?

 

[AndyT0073]

Space your grab around shine after laser. I think then all they can do is roll or spotdodge the grab which you can adapt to.

 

[StrayDog]

Maybe this is scrubby, but I like dash attack as a tech chase option. You can usually do it on reaction. Just dair at their tech in place location and dash attack towards the direction they roll on reaction. Dash attack confirms into jump shine (out of which you can combo or shine bair,) uair at kill percents on floaties or dair if they go offstage, depending on DI of course. I'm sure it's not the best option but it seems pretty reliable, at least at my level.

 

[AndyT0073]

Dash attack is pretty cool. Only problem is cc at low percent and if you do it too much your opponent might start to asdi down getup attack at higher %'s. If your opponent doesn't do these things it's pretty reliable, however, I feel like it isn't used much at top level of play because of these reasons.

 

[SandwichSundays]

I found that on one end of a platform if you shine turn around and jump you can drift and put a b-air anywhere on the platform. So if you get a shine under a platform you can shine where they land on the platform immediately, then turnaround + jump, and drift wherever you need to for the b-air if they tech or roll away.

Not sure how practical it is, but I wanted to throw that out there 'cause it seems relevant.

 

[SandwichSundays]

That does seem like it works and is easy, but can't they shield/shine after the laser hits them?

The idea is to do it fast enough that the laser is extending the amount of time you have for the punish. Falco typically can't dash fast enough to cover a tech roll away on the first tangible frame. In this scenario, the laser just gives you a few extra frames of hitstun to work with while approaching. Also, if you get the laser low enough you can get the juicy laser reset - > fsmash on a missed tech.

 

[WulyahmK]

Space your grab around shine after laser. I think then all they can do is roll or spotdodge the grab which you can adapt to.

Dash shl takes about 25 or 26 frames asap, so the opponent has a tun of time to prepare for the laser (to ps or cc turnaround utilt or whatever). Not talking frame data wise though, shl'ing in place is probably a good option bc it covers tech in place, missed tech, and 1 roll direction. If they tech in place or miss the tech, a shine punish is pretty guaranteed. The 1 roll away direction isn't really covered though, bc they have plenty of time to act after getting hit with the laser.

 

[WulyahmK]

I found that on one end of a platform if you shine turn around and jump you can drift and put a b-air anywhere on the platform. So if you get a shine under a platform you can shine where they land on the platform immediately, then turnaround + jump, and drift wherever you need to for the b-air if they tech or roll away.

Not sure how practical it is, but I wanted to throw that out there 'cause it seems relevant.

That's an interesting idea, and using that same logic you can also shield drop shine for the tech in place/missed tech then waveland shine afterwards. Although, both that idea and the falling bair idea are probably too slow for opponent's to get hit by.

For the runoff shine turnaround bair, you could run off SPEC (Shorten Platform Edge Cancel) instead. If the run off is timed right it can cover all options, and once you edge cancel you can dash back and do whatever you want. Fun fact: battlefield's platforms can be SPEC'd on by both Falco's 2/4ths shorten and his 3/4ths shorten.

 

[AndyT0073]

Dash shl takes about 25 or 26 frames asap, so the opponent has a tun of time to prepare for the laser (to ps or cc turnaround utilt or whatever). Not talking frame data wise though, shl'ing in place is probably a good option bc it covers tech in place, missed tech, and 1 roll direction. If they tech in place or miss the tech, a shine punish is pretty guaranteed. The 1 roll away direction isn't really covered though, bc they have plenty of time to act after getting hit with the laser.

You dash sh laser to cover rolls on reaction. It's decent cuz you'll be mixing up what happens after the laser alot and eventually will get a big punish (flaco combos) with a proper read. Better than that stupid utilt stuff you were talking about earlier

 

[WulyahmK]

My b, for some reason I thought tech rolls were a lot shorter than 40 frames. It's actually really good then

 

[WulyahmK]

My b, for some reason I thought tech rolls were a lot shorter than 40 frames. It's actually really good then

You dash sh laser to cover rolls on reaction. It's decent cuz you'll be mixing up what happens after the laser alot and eventually will get a big punish (flaco combos) with a proper read. Better than that stupid utilt stuff you were talking about earlier

Although 1v1 me

 

[Dr3amSm4sher]

Just some stuff i want to point out
Up tilt doesn't break asdi down crouch cancel until like 60 ish percent i think so until then they can just hold down and punish you.
There isn't much reason to jab reset here if your just gonna up tilt. raw up tilt would be easier to do on reaction since its simpler, and it would give them fewer oppertunities to escape via sdi up.

Utilt breaks ASDI down and causes a knockdown at like 20% before the utilt. If they do hold down you just do double utilt. Because even if they tech it will pretty much always be tech in place. (unless they are on that next level stuff... which no one is) Leffen, Westballz, and Crush love using this. If they SDI up it combos better. If they hold down just do 2. However, if you let them actually crouch it becomes punishable.

The closest I've gotten to doing an actual reaction tech chase with Falco is you do turnaround utilt/grab for tech in place and do dash sh dair to cover rolls at low% and dash attack at higher %s. This is a true reaction tech chase though. You have to place yourself on tech in place with wavedash or dash (if you are good at doing full dash into instant turnaround utilt)

However, he doesn't have the falcon luxury of being able to do complete option coverage until ASDI down vs dash attack is off the table. (about 72% for fox) And even then his "option coverage" isn't even actual option coverage. It's still a reaction tech chase, albeit much easier.

The way you do that one is you have to short hop right before they hit the ground (you want to space it so that you land where they would tech in place. I personally space it with wavedashes and shield stops but it can technically be done out of a dash or even run.) and don't do anything (not even fastfall) until they tech. Then you have to determine which one it was and act accordingly.

If they missed tech or tech in place do dair and then fastfall*. (depends on your shorthop timing. sometimes you don't even have to fastfall until after the dair hits them.) Surprisingly enough hitting cstick down in reaction to tech is actually pretty easy.

If they tech roll you want to just fastfall the short hop (don't do anything. not even laser *more on this later.) and then dash which way they go and then dash attack. It's not instant dash attack though and the timing depends on a couple factors like initial sh spacing and tech roll length.

Okay now for a couple little tidbits with this technique:

1. It's hard. Falco doesn't have a sheik dthrow or falcon dthrow to set these situations up. So you have to get good at doing the Plup style of tech chasing where you identify when you can set up a tech chase whenever combo'ing and use movement to set yourself up for success.
2. The dash short hop dair takes much more time in comparison to boost grab/dash jc grab and therefore covering rolls on true reaction is a little difficult. Still possible though
3. You cannot shot a laser to cover tech in place and then cover other things because if your laser is properly timed for tech in place it will actually hit them out of their roll away and they will be actionable much earlier and will be able dash back.
4. However if you accidentally misreact and dair when they teched rolled then you can shoot a dash shield stop laser to continue the pressure. (don't do full dash laser only because by the time it comes out you've already hopped into their wakeup utilt.) This is countered by wakeup dash in aggression though.
5. Make sure you hit with strong dash attack. Weak dash attack loses to ASDI down tech in place till like 125%. The only thing is also make sure you don't do the strong dash attack at too early of a % cause they can also ASDI down tech in place shine very reliably until 72% (they can still double stick DI tech strong dash attack till like 88% but it gives them a roll which you can chase with shield stop laser anyway.)
6. If you are playing vs a character with mediocre tech rolls you can fastfall the SH and fsmash their tech roll in.

This hasn't been tested frame by frame in every scenario but it seems to work well enough from my mediocre testing.

One little addition. the "NO LASER" rule can be broken if they land too far for your shorthop to reach them in general. If that is the case go right ahead and cover that tech in place with laser.