Talk about a Matchup (MU)

[Ten of Nine]

So I haven't seen a thread like this in the general discussion and I think it would be interesting.

Basically just talk about anything involving a Matchup (MU) in Melee; could be something interesting you just learned about a MU, your general opinion and overview of a MU, What MU ratios mean to you, a surprising or rare MU, MUs you enjoy or hate, or some popular misconception / misinformation about a MU, etc...

PLEASE LIST THE PROPER NAME OF THE MU AS YOUR FIRST LINE SO PEOPLE CAN SEARCH OR FILTER MESSAGES IN THIS THREAD...sort of like tagging (So e.g. Falco v Fox, CF v Puff, Marth v Peach) And feel free to put the ratio as the second line of your message if you want (e.g. 40:60). Listing the MU alphabetically would also help a lot but I don't expect people to stick to that, so instead of Mario v DK it should be DK v Mario since D is before M, etc.

Let's all use these common abbreviations to make for more concise and accurate searching:
CF = Captain Falcon
ICs = Ice Climbers
DK = Donkey Kong
Puff = Jigglypuff
DM = Doctor Mario
YL = Young Link
G&W = Mr. Game and Watch
Ganon = Ganondorf (not as common, but I see both used still)


Alright I will start it off with a very interesting MU that people really don't seem to understand. It's probably just because it's rare. People on this site also get it really wrong, but still give their opinions having never seen the MU played out.

Kirby v Puff
40:60

When I do see this MU and commentators are present they always remark how Puff just flat out wins since obviously she is a better character. Not really true at all in this MU. Kirby has more kill power from neutral with his Bair / Uair, 2 incredible rest punishes (SS Hammer and Fully charged Up smash), a faster jump, faster OoS game, better WD, better roll, better Spot Dodge, far SUPERIOR normals, Better grab range, Kirby is heavier, etc. Both don't really have combos, set ups, or confirms off throws. Kirby actually can nullify a lot of Puff's usual range and weaving game in neutral with his WD, roll in > Tilt/Bair/grab, and crouching. It really is just a spacing and zoning game, almost even. The only reason there is a 10 difference in the ratio is attributed to the major gap between how easy it is for Puff to get back to stage as well as her easier edge guarding.

Expect medium-long matches, but it's surprisingly fun and interesting to watch somehow (perhaps since both still die early). There is a great VOD with Triple R against a Puff main Dairy on YouTube that went on for about 19 minutes, never really got boring for me. it's a pretty good representation of what this MU should look like on a higher level.

 

[iAmMatt]

Kirby v Puff
40:60

Puff's bair outspaces every single one of kirby's moves. Any moves that barely match bair in terms of spacing have too much startup lag or ending lag

 

[Ten of Nine]

Puff's bair outspaces every single one of kirby's moves. Any moves that barely match bair in terms of spacing have too much startup lag or ending lag

This in incorrect, I'll assume you have no experience in the MU.

At least watch some sets before forming some fictional opinion or debating something. Bair is only active for a very small window of time, simple noob tactics like roll in and tilt/grab can trump a Puff that just AC Bairs at you (Kirby can crouch it as well). Kirby also has frame traps that Puff does not, a Bair to Utilt she can nothing about as well as a Ftilt or Dtilt on shield, Fair landing hit shield pokes her.

I have pretty much never seen Triple R or Cereal Rabbit lose against a Puff that was on the same level, but still I would say the MU is in Puff favor as I just stated. As stated Triple R has gone to Finals / Grands with Dairy (puff player) a few times and it's always been close or it's been a 2-0 or 3-0 with exception of 1 tournament where Triple R was playing objectively worse.

There are many misunderstood MUs like this. G&W v Puff is another good one, near even but people with no clue would no doubt think Puff wins by a landslide. Same goes for Kirby v Sheik, I hear commentators all the time say it's 10:90 or 20:80, I'd say it's more 35:65. Kirby doesn't have as easy of a time but he's got things that work on Sheik that no other character has.

 

[iAmMatt]

simple noob tactics

This is exactly what they are, noob tactics, which is why they wouldn't work on someone more experienced.

it's always been close or it's been a 2-0 or 3-0

Can you link these sets? I'm sure the only reason Triple R wins so consistently against puff is because he has practice against her at his same level. Otherwise, I'm sure the puff matchup is one of the hardest for other kirby mains.

EDIT: It's also very hard to base a specific matchup for a character based on the results of two players. You have yet to provide any other evidence besides Triple R vs Dairy

 

[Ten of Nine]

This is exactly what they are, noob tactics, which is why they wouldn't work on someone more experienced.

Can you link these sets? I'm sure the only reason Triple R wins so consistently against puff is because he has practice against her at his same level. Otherwise, I'm sure the puff matchup is one of the hardest for other kirby mains.

EDIT: It's also very hard to base a specific matchup for a character based on the results of two players. You have yet to provide any other evidence besides Triple R vs Dairy

I don't think think there is much of a point in discussing this with you, it would be a massive waste of time.

You are asking for proof to something you have no real opinion or experience with. Where is your proof aside from one shallow hypothetical point that a stream monster might use to debate.

I've seen your posts around here and there; a lot of what you say doesn't seem to carry much weight, experience, or knowledge. So proving something to you isn't much a priority nor will it have any meaningful progression to this MU.

If you'd like to talk about a matchup you have experience with or something you've observed enough to give an opinion on that would be ideal.

Otherwise I'm 100% fine with you thinking I'm wrong and you're right about the MU (even though you've never really given it any thought before now, never played it personally, haven't even watched the sets I talked about). This is behavior common on these boards unfortunately.

 

[iAmMatt]

I don't think think there is much of a point in discussing this with you, it would be a massive waste of time.

You are asking for proof to something you have no real opinion or experience with. Where is your proof aside from one shallow hypothetical point that a stream monster might use to debate.

I've seen your posts around here and there; a lot of what you say doesn't seem to carry much weight, experience, or knowledge. So proving something to you isn't much a priority nor will it have any meaningful progression to this MU.

If you'd like to talk about a matchup you have experience with or something you've observed enough to give an opinion on that would be ideal.

Otherwise I'm 100% fine with you thinking I'm wrong and you're right about the MU (even though you've never really given it any thought before now, never played it personally, haven't even watched the sets I talked about). This is behavior common on these boards unfortunately.

Let's stick to the thread topic.
The fact of the matter is that puff>kirby for a reason. I feel as though I've already pointed out some of those reasons. If you think what I say has no validity, I'd like to see your kirby take on a puff.

 

[Ten of Nine]

The fact of the matter is that puff>kirby for a reason. I feel as though I've already pointed out some of those reasons. If you think what I say has no validity, I'd like to see your kirby take on a puff.

No you really haven't at all. You said one thing that someone who's played this game a week could say. Something I considered years ago before actually playing and watching this MU for the first time. In contrast, I actually wrote 2 paragraphs about the MU.

So at this point I'm fine with you believing what ever you like, I'm not here to change your mind.

There are plenty of examples to back up my analysis, simply stop being lazy and search on youtube. There have been many streams as well but they weren't archived. Prince Abu's Puff being beat by Ginger's Kirby (he also beat his Falco, there is a VOD of that) and Cereal Rabbit beating plenty of Cali Puffs on stream. But I use the Dairy example because he has actually played the character Kirby plenty of times, it was at Finals/Grands (meaning he's a good player), and he's played Triple R a lot....So MU and player ignorance can't invalidate as easily as Triple R or some other Kirby just wrecking a much better player who has never played a Kirby (which happens a lot when he travels).

 

[iAmMatt]

Puff's bair outspaces every single one of kirby's moves

There's one reason why puff>kirby.
I also took a look for myself and I couldn't find a single one of the sets you were talking about. I found sets of the players you mentioned playing but Ginger was only playing falco and cereal rabbit wasn't playing against any puffs.
Another thing you might want to take into account is that patronizing people because you don't agree with them is extremely childish. I'd like to keep this conversation mature, please

 

[Ten of Nine]

What's childish are people who argue about or speak on things they don't know anything about.

I'm not sure what it is about this site, but a lot of inexperienced players seem to feel alright discussing things they are clueless about. Perhaps that is just boredom or it's just young kids not knowing any better. This is probably why the top players who used to be active here aren't anymore.

I'm not trying to be patronizing, this is just the truth.

 

[iAmMatt]

speak on things they don't know anything about.

I've been playing this game for years, I think I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what it is about this site, but a lot of inexperienced players seem to feel alright discussing things they are clueless about.

You're patronizing a huge community of people by saying this. I'm going to leave this thread alone now because we've strayed too far from the topic and I fear it's turning hostile.

 

[Ten of Nine]

I've been playing this game for years, I think I know what I'm talking about.

You're patronizing a huge community of people by saying this. I'm going to leave this thread alone now because we've strayed too far from the topic and I fear it's turning hostile.

A wise decision probably from the start it would have been better to not engage at all.

It doesn't matter if you've been playing this game for years. I know plenty of people that have been playing since the game came out and they are still terrible or they are terrible at theory-crafting and talking about MUs/characters. What really matters is how much Kirby you've actually played, how much you know about the character, and how much Kirby v Puff you've played. Since you decided to debate me about the MU, that's pretty relevant I'd say. So honestly how much do you know?

It's like back when even top players used to laugh about Yoshi being a threat in Melee at all. Everyone can be wrong, from the novice to the most experienced. 90% had never even played a Yoshi or used the character for more than an hour. They think that the ONLY person that is currently repping the character is the best there will ever be (V3ctorman). These are all mistakes even top players have made on this site, you need to stop incorrectly using the word patronizing. It is the truth based on legitimate repeated behavior of arrogant people.

 

[iAmMatt]

A wise decision probably from the start it would have been better to not engage at all.

It doesn't matter if you've been playing this game for years. I know plenty of people that have been playing since the game came out and they are still terrible or they are terrible at theory-crafting and talking about MUs/characters. What really matters is how much Kirby you've actually played, how much you know about the character, and how much Kirby v Puff you've played. Since you decided to debate me about the MU, that's pretty relevant I'd say. So honestly how much do you know?

It's like back when even top players used to laugh about Yoshi being a threat in Melee at all. Everyone can be wrong, from the novice to the most experienced. 90% had never even played a Yoshi or used the character for more than an hour. They think that the ONLY person that is currently repping the character is the best there will ever be (V3ctorman). These are all mistakes even top players have made on this site, you need to stop incorrectly using the word patronizing. It is the truth based on legitimate repeated behavior of arrogant people.

I have refuted every single one of your points and you continue to run in circles, saying the same thing over and over. All you do is patronize me and insist that kirby v puff isn't as one sided as everyone thinks without providing any actual evidence. There's little to no argument here. The only thing I can agree with is that kirby is not the worst character in the game. I'm not going to argue with someone who has nothing to argue, consider yourself blocked.

 

[Cyn]

Please keep this discussion civil. There is nothing to be gained by attacking another person's experience with a certain match-up. People are allowed to disagree, but please do so in a manner that is not aggressive. Thank you.

 

[Raycu]

A wise decision probably from the start it would have been better to not engage at all.

It doesn't matter if you've been playing this game for years. I know plenty of people that have been playing since the game came out and they are still terrible or they are terrible at theory-crafting and talking about MUs/characters. What really matters is how much Kirby you've actually played, how much you know about the character, and how much Kirby v Puff you've played. Since you decided to debate me about the MU, that's pretty relevant I'd say. So honestly how much do you know?

It's like back when even top players used to laugh about Yoshi being a threat in Melee at all. Everyone can be wrong, from the novice to the most experienced. 90% had never even played a Yoshi or used the character for more than an hour. They think that the ONLY person that is currently repping the character is the best there will ever be (V3ctorman). These are all mistakes even top players have made on this site, you need to stop incorrectly using the word patronizing. It is the truth based on legitimate repeated behavior of arrogant people.

I'm going to go out of my way and point out you've still not provided any evidence to prove your point, and have instead attacked the person's counter example, and personality, (Once more without any concrete evidence, but instead anecdotal evidence which is only tangentially related). If you want to prove that Kirby has the advantage in this matchup, why not link some sets of experience players instead of talking about ones you've seen once or twice before.

P.S. I find it ironic that you would talk of his inexperience when you aren't a long standing member of this forum, and in fact haven't proven at all that you have any longterm experience worth noting.

This doesn't mean I should ignore your ideas though. After all, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know as much as even the top 200 in my area, but that doesn't mean that every single idea I have is invalidated. And if you do attack my level of experience, it will just reveals that you don't actually have a counter argument, and you're grasping for straws..

 

[Ten of Nine]

I'm going to go out of my way and point out you've still not provided any evidence to prove your point, and have instead attacked the person's counter example, and personality, (Once more without any concrete evidence, but instead anecdotal evidence which is only tangentially related). If you want to prove that Kirby has the advantage in this matchup, why not link some sets of experience players instead of talking about ones you've seen once or twice before.

P.S. I find it ironic that you would talk of his inexperience when you aren't a long standing member of this forum, and in fact haven't proven at all that you have any longterm experience worth noting.

This doesn't mean I should ignore your ideas though. After all, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know as much as even the top 200 in my area, but that doesn't mean that every single idea I have is invalidated. And if you do attack my level of experience, it will just reveals that you don't actually have a counter argument, and you're grasping for straws..

Re-read what I have written and what iammatt has written. Everything in your comment makes no sense at all. Either that, you can't read, or skimmed over it all. I've provided 3 paragraphs about the MU and all the info to find all the VODs related to this MU. Streams that aren't archived can't magically be viewed now. A lot Kirby stuff doesn't get archived (or even streamed) since no one like the character and he's rare.

Sadly I kind of expected this from here, I think Reddit may seem like the better place to go from now on...
Using join date as your only leading argument; then a hypocritical comment right after, not very smart.. I've been reading this site since 2007. Join date only means one thing: when you decided to create an account, it means nothing else. Doesn't signify how long you've been playing, how many smash games you play, or how good you actually are.

Ironic and patronize guys....look them up they don't mean what you think they mean.

 

[Raycu]

Re-read what I have written and what iammatt has written. Everything in your comment makes no sense at all. Either that, you can't read, or skimmed over it all. I've provided 3 paragraphs about the MU and all the info to find all the VODs related to this MU. Streams that aren't archived can't magically be viewed now. A lot Kirby stuff doesn't get archived (or even streamed) since no one like the character and he's rare.

Sadly I kind of expected this from here, I think Reddit may seem like the better place to go from now on...
Using join date as your only leading argument; then a hypocritical comment right after, not very smart.. I've been reading this site since 2007. Join date only means one thing: when you decided to create an account, it means nothing else. Doesn't signify how long you've been playing, how many smash games you play, or how good you actually are.

Ironic and patronize guys....look them up they don't mean what you think they mean.

It's ironic that you would attack someone's date of joining when yours isn't substantial at all. That is irony because you have no place to talk about it. Irony: "A state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result". I don't know about you, but I don't expect a newer member to attack an older members experience.

Now, let's go over what's been said so far in a summarized format:

Ten of Nine: Puff loses to Kirby

IAmMatt: But Puff's bear outspaces Kirby

Ten of Nine: But what if they roll around it? Bair has a short window? "This in incorrect, I'll assume you have no experience in the MU." (This is known as being patronizing, or speaking down to someone by the way. Something I will freely admit I'm doing right now! c
There's frametraps too! What if they dtilt (a very laggy move which can be punished very easily) What about bair to up-tilt! (Something any smart player would notice is a frame trap after the first usage) I've also seen kirby mains beat puffs before, nevermind the fact that it was probably because no one has any experience playing against puff mains.

IAmMatt: Any smart kirby can get around them rolling into uptilt, what are you talking about? Also, can I please see these sets you're talking about? Do you have more than two players as examples, that's a rather small testing pool.

Ten of Nine: You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, asking me for evidence. Maybe talk about something you have experience with, you're just like everybody else here. You talk about stuff you know nothing about. (Once again, making assumptions about and condescending to the entirety of smashboards doesn't come off very well)

IAmMatt: I do have experience though. Please stop talking down to me and everybody here. I'm going to stop talking because this thread is being derailed.

Ten of Nine: Hah, since you know nothing you shouldn't have even tried to debate. After all, I know tons of people who have experience and yet still are terrible at theory crafting. (This is what's known as anecdotal evidence, and once more you attack his personality, but not his ideas. This is no as ad hominem, which is when someone fails to attack an argument, and instead chooses to attack the person making it. It is generally frowned upon in debates because it contributes nothing, and often seeks to enrage one, or multiple parties, or deflect from the argument at hand).

IAmMatt: I keep on providing counter examples, yet all you do is attack me personally and repeat things.


End

Does this seem accurate? Did you not patronize and condescend? Do you finally understand one of the many definitions of irony? Are you finally able to provide a new argument or provide evidence for your already weak beginning argument? Finally, you claim he must provide evidence for his questioninga and counter examples, which not only goes against the socratic method, but also seems to not understand burden of proof. Also known as, "If you assume something, it is on you to provide evidence, not on the skeptics"

Edit: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-kirby-match-up-thread-i-got-off-my-added-samus.155860/

Even other Kirby mains claim that it's a losing match up.

 

[Ten of Nine]

It's ironic that you would attack someone's date of joining when yours isn't substantial at all. That is irony because you have no place to talk about it. Irony: "A state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result". I don't know about you, but I don't expect a newer member to attack an older members experience.

Now, let's go over what's been said so far in a summarized format:

Ten of Nine: Puff loses to Kirby

IAmMatt: But Puff's bear outspaces Kirby

Ten of Nine: But what if they roll around it? Bair has a short window? "This in incorrect, I'll assume you have no experience in the MU." (This is known as being patronizing, or speaking down to someone by the way. Something I will freely admit I'm doing right now! c
There's frametraps too! What if they dtilt (a very laggy move which can be punished very easily) What about bair to up-tilt! (Something any smart player would notice is a frame trap after the first usage) I've also seen kirby mains beat puffs before, nevermind the fact that it was probably because no one has any experience playing against puff mains.

IAmMatt: Any smart kirby can get around them rolling into uptilt, what are you talking about? Also, can I please see these sets you're talking about? Do you have more than two players as examples, that's a rather small testing pool.

Ten of Nine: You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, asking me for evidence. Maybe talk about something you have experience with, you're just like everybody else here. You talk about stuff you know nothing about. (Once again, making assumptions about and condescending to the entirety of smashboards doesn't come off very well)

IAmMatt: I do have experience though. Please stop talking down to me and everybody here. I'm going to stop talking because this thread is being derailed.

Ten of Nine: Hah, since you know nothing you shouldn't have even tried to debate. After all, I know tons of people who have experience and yet still are terrible at theory crafting. (This is what's known as anecdotal evidence, and once more you attack his personality, but not his ideas. This is no as ad hominem, which is when someone fails to attack an argument, and instead chooses to attack the person making it. It is generally frowned upon in debates because it contributes nothing, and often seeks to enrage one, or multiple parties, or deflect from the argument at hand).

IAmMatt: I keep on providing counter examples, yet all you do is attack me personally and repeat things.


End

Does this seem accurate? Did you not patronize and condescend? Do you finally understand one of the many definitions of irony? Are you finally able to provide a new argument or provide evidence for your already weak beginning argument? Finally, you claim he must provide evidence for his questioninga and counter examples, which not only goes against the socratic method, but also seems to not understand burden of proof. Also known as, "If you assume something, it is on you to provide evidence, not on the skeptics"

Edit: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-kirby-match-up-thread-i-got-off-my-added-samus.155860/

Even other Kirby mains claim that it's a losing match up.

"Now, let's go over what's been said so far in a summarized format:

Ten of Nine: Puff loses to Kirby"

Okay so now we 100% know you can't read...the rest of your comment seems to back this up.

I never said Puff loses to Kirby I said the EXACT opposite. Right off the bat you have no clue what's going on, can't even comprehend simple sentences. Let's continue.

Ironic : using words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning.
Patronize : treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.

The words you were looking for are -
Hypocritical
&
Condescending

Different meanings, you can't just make up your own definitions to words. Not how language works. If you are going to make up definitions you should let other people know so they can understand your own made up version of English.

From the start I said it's a losing matchup, what does my MU ratio say? Kirby is losing, I even re-iterated this. Your ending paragraph is nonsense again. Check out the MU ratios for Yoshi, I bet those are still accurate as well.

Your paraphrasing and interpretation seem to be very strange and biased. In most of it you are leaving out complete thoughts and changing wording to suit your argument which you now see was fallacious. You probably should have never included yourself in an argument that had nothing to do with you. But again that is common on this site it seems. So, am I surprised? No.

 

[Cyn]

Since the definition of civility is lost here and the topic is not even being discussed, I am locking this.