Swiss Format Instead of Double Elimination?

[ElectricCitrus]

For those not in the know read up on the Swiss format here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

Now, I know we all know and love the Double Elimination format. It's relatively quick, has higher stakes and is tradition. But what if, what IF we considered moving Smash 4--at least 3DS--to a Swiss System? Other competitive games already use it, namely card games like Pokemon and Magic the Gathering, Clash Tournaments ran their first Smash 3DS tournament using this system, and the advantages include:

-Doesn't eliminate anyone meaning players are guaranteed to play all rounds which can help grow the scene by a large margin.
-Results are a bit more accurate of the actual strengths/weaknesses of the players involved due to a comprehensive breakdown of their matches.


However there is definitely one huge disadvantage and that's it can easily end up to where a player has such a huge points lead that they will win the tournament regardless of whether or not they win/lose their last game. This pretty much means the tournament would be over before it's over. Meaning there wouldn't be a hype climactic battle like in the traditional double elimination style.

To be perfectly frank I don't really care either way, because I just want to play competitive smash but I think it's worth discussing our possible options with the dawn of a new era coming soon. Share your thoughts.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I saw on a stream this past weekend that did a Swiss tournament, then finished with a double-elimination bracket using the top 8 players. That sort of fusion could address your runaway lead concern.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Interesting, that would definitely make for a pretty intense/diverse tourney. I think using that hybrid new players would be satisfied that they got to play all the swiss rounds which circumvents the issue of people stopping after their first tourney because they got completely bodied and only got to play four games across two sets.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Interesting, that would definitely make for a pretty intense/diverse tourney. I think using that hybrid new players would be satisfied that they got to play all the swiss rounds which circumvents the issue of people stopping after their first tourney because they got completely bodied and only got to play four games across two sets.

If the TO wanted, they could even adjust for scale by increasing it to the top 16 or 32 players. (Would that be practical?)

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Honestly at that point you may as well have just run a double elimination bracket to begin with. Top 8 to Top 4 would be ideal for a hybrid-system.

 

[Boy Jordan]

I know that the boys at Tourney Locator have been huge advocates for Swiss in 3DS tournaments. If either version between Wii U and 3DS best suits Swiss, it'd be 3DS, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best option. I don't see Smash 3DS tournaments gaining more than 16 to 32 entrants as far as weeklies and biweeklies go. The main benefit of Swiss and Round Robin (pooled) is to efficiently manage a larger sized tournament (typically 48+ entrants). Having two separate events for smaller tournaments, such as a Swiss bracket that leads into a Double Elimination bracket, adds more hassle than is necessary, both to the tournament organizer and the players. In a larger tournament, I'd personally prefer having a Round Robin event lead into Double Elimination over Swiss. But to each his own. Swiss could definitely work. I just see more advantages in other formats.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

The main issue with Round Robin is logistics. In Round Robin everyone plays everyone else, meaning once you get into the higher numbers of tournament entrants things get very messy very quickly. Swiss avoids this by operating in the same mindset as Round Robin, but making it so it's actually logistically feasible to run and complete a large tournament in a timely fashion.

As for adding extra stress on the TO, it's really not that much extra work. Thanks to the age of things like Challonge, you can create a Swiss into Double Elimination bracket in a very short amount of time. You wouldn't even have to treat them like separate events; rather you'd treat them like two phases of one event. Going so far as to only have one payment. I say this both as player and TO.

All the hybrid system would try to accomplish is overcoming the one apparent, and very major, flaw that a Swiss tournament has: An early lead that's so insurmountable that the rest of the tournament becomes trivialized.

 

[Boy Jordan]

The main issue with Round Robin is logistics. In Round Robin everyone plays everyone else, meaning once you get into the higher numbers of tournament entrants things get very messy very quickly. Swiss avoids this by operating in the same mindset as Round Robin, but making it so it's actually logistically feasible to run and complete a large tournament in a timely fashion.

Pools, my friend.

As for adding extra stress on the TO, it's really not that much extra work. Thanks to the age of things like Challonge, you can create a Swiss into Double Elimination bracket in a very short amount of time. You wouldn't even have to treat them like separate events; rather you'd treat them like two phases of one event. Going so far as to only have one payment. I say this both as player and TO.

Hassle in further implementation of rules and procedure more than anything else. Not a huge thing, just unnecessary when double elimination already gets the job done for smaller tournaments.

All the hybrid system would try to accomplish is overcoming the one apparent, and very major, flaw that a Swiss tournament has: An early lead that's so insurmountable that the rest of the tournament becomes trivialized.

I could definitely see either Swiss or Round Robin being used as a preliminary event in tournies with 48+ entrants. This sort of matter is up 100% to the respective tournament organizer, and no one can really dogmatically claim one method is best. I'd personally have fun attending different tournies with different formats. Was just giving my two cents earlier.

 

[Conda]

In a fighting game with such a distint focus on the strengths and weaknesses of certain characters, Swiss could pose some issues. If ZSS is hard countered by Bowser, and a ZSS got lucky enough to not have to face a Bowser player - due to the opponents they had to face and the opponents they didn't have to face - that could pose an issue. Unless I'm missing something

 

[Trickerhere]

I think you should use swiss format to determine Top 16 then double elimination.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

@ Conda Not very likely, because as Swiss progresses those who win more points face people of equal point value. Meaning the ZSS would likely have to face the Bowser. Unless said Bowser wasn't very good at which point it wouldn't even matter.

 

[Conda]

@ Conda Not very likely, because as Swiss progresses those who win more points face people of equal point value. Meaning the ZSS would likely have to face the Bowser. Unless said Bowser wasn't very good at which point it wouldn't even matter.

Ah yes, it's par the course that I'd miss something obvious like that. Thanks

 

[Chilex]

RR pools are better IMO. Perfectly accurate, plus more games for every player.

 

[JayceJa]

New to smash, but as a card game player, I can attest to Swiss format's advantages: the problem with round robin groups is that all your opponents are decided from the get go, rather than in Swiss where it actually places players that are doing well against each other as the tournament progresses.

The card game I play(yugioh) uses Swiss into a top 4/8/16/32 cut single elimination depending on the tournament size

 

[Raijinken]

I support the hybrid tournament style. It's nice being able to watch people keep trying even after they lose a few rounds.

 

[Dooms]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-possibility-of-going-swiss.338078/

http://smashboards.com/threads/swiss-bracket-discussion.346807/

Not sure if you can see both of those, but multiple of us shared a lot of thoughts on going swiss in that thread and in that group.

 

[Chiroz]

It's possible to do swiss with the 3DS version, some daring TOs could try it out and see how it feels. I don't think swiss will ever be possible on Wii U unless there's a small number of players.

 

[Dooms]

It's possible to do swiss with the 3DS version, some daring TOs could try it out and see how it feels. I don't think swiss will ever be possible on Wii U unless there's a small number of players.

The ratio would have to be 1 tv per 2 players if you would want to finish it in a timely fashion (which is the main purpose of swiss). If you have any less, you probably will be taking longer than you want to finish the tournament, so you might as well just go full out and do pools/bracket imo.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i od think it will help the scene grwo and keep people in the game. especially people who get late in the scene

 

[SerodD]

However there is definitely one huge disadvantage and that's it can easily end up to where a player has such a huge points lead that they will win the tournament regardless of whether or not they win/lose their last game. This pretty much means the tournament would be over before it's over. Meaning there wouldn't be a hype climactic battle like in the traditional double elimination style.

This is not how swiss works for other games, in card games they use swiss to divide a top 8/16/32/... from the other players (it depends on the number of players) and then they play a single elemination match to determine the tournament winner.

If people want to start doing this for smash we should do the same except for double elemination for top instead of single.

 

[Xenesis]

Going Swiss (for the 3DS version) should be a real no-brainer if it's at all doable.

It ensures that everyone gets to play lots of matches, if you're not setup limited it takes less time to run than Round Robin/Pools/Double Elimination and you can still get those final thrills by seeding into a Top4/Top8 or whatever.

 

[Rakath]

What about Swiss into Round Robin? You use the Swiss to narrow down a Top 4, and then that top 4 Round Robins to determine First, Second, Third, and so close yet so far placements?

 

[Metal B]

The Swiss-System would also make the matches more aggressive and faster paced, if you introduce draws.
The winning player gets 3 points and the losing player gets 0 points. But if both players go over time and the set ends in a draw, both only get 1 point. This doesn't help the players in the long run of the tournament. This makes a match also a fight against the clock and forces the player to play much more aggressive. I guess, this will also carry over to the elimination round, since people will not likely have to different play-styles.

I would also introduce following rules for the elimination rounds:

• The top 4/8/16/etc. players get into the Elimination Round. No Double Elimination.
• The player at first place gets to choose his first opponent first, then then the second players gets to choose and so on until everybody is paired. If a players is already set to another player, he can't change his opponent.
• The brackets are set after the order of the places of the players in the beginning.
• Then the player with the lowest place can change the order of one pair of the brackets first, then the player at the second lowest place and so on until it reaches the player at first. He is the last player, who can change the order of the brackets.
• The matches are now Best-of-5. ( in the Swiss-Phase it's Best-of-3 other more fast paced rules to have more different match-ups for each player).

With those rules the player at first place gets a great reward for winning the first round. Since he has the most control of his first and possible second opponent. This control and Best-of-5 also eliminate the need for Double Elimination, which in return makes the Elimination Round much more exciting.

 

[Conda]

The ratio would have to be 1 tv per 2 players if you would want to finish it in a timely fashion (which is the main purpose of swiss). If you have any less, you probably will be taking longer than you want to finish the tournament, so you might as well just go full out and do pools/bracket imo.

Exactly, 1 TV per 2 competing players at a venue is massive.