Suggestions for Some MU's?

[Zylach]

Hi all. I've been playing a lot in FG 1v1 and finally found someone else that simply kicked my ass with several different characters that I felt I just couldn't counter and I was wondering if any other Zelda players could offer some advice on these MU's.

1. Diddy Kong: This was the hardest character for me to counter. He has so many guaranteed combos out of grabs and using his banana peels. I tried reflecting his bananas but I eventually became too predictable and got punished for it hard. My best match against Diddy was when I started spamming my dash cancelled pivot grab on his side-B approach but still ended up losing. I had a lot of trouble getting kill shots on him because he is so evasive and has little ending/landing lag on his moves so I can't consistently punish him.

2. Wario: I have a very similar problem facing Wario in that he is so aerially evasive that I can't land my killing moves on him. I feel more confident racking up damage on him though since he is easily punished while riding his motorcycle (which kills at around 80% when he lowers his wheelie. That's insane.). His command grab is really annoying since I shield so often though that's probably my fault. Every time I attempted a lightning kick, we would trade as he used his f-air which lingers a tad longer than Zelda's kicks and my u-air is risky since his d-air allows him to safely fast fall through me back to the stage. His d-air also trades with my u-smash (which is awful now) so I find it difficult to go against him in the air.

3. Lucario: Lucario is so much easier to deal with than the other two but as soon as I get him over around 60%, I can't outrange his side-B with anything and can't get any kills offstage against him because his recovery is probably the best in the game (I couldn't get offstage kills against either of the other two as well since their recoveries are so unpredictable and generally amazing). At one point, I had Lucario at 160% and was taking hits of 30%. Luckily, reflecting his aura sphere gives me some hope for this MU but its not a perfect strategy.

From what I've heard, these three characters are going to be on the high end of the roster though I hesitate to complain about a tier list that doesn't exist and also one that will probably be more balanced than past incarnations of the franchise. I'm just curious as to whether other people think Zelda might have a disadvantage here and what I might be able to do against them whether I'm at a disadvantage or not because I feel like Zelda is a solid contender against them. I just need to learn how to do that. Thanks in advance for any help. It's much appreciated.

 

[Rickster]

Well, Zelda generally has a hard time with fast characters and getting juggled. So Wario's air game gives her a bad day. Diddy's speed AND good air game really wreck her.

For Lucario, I usually play a little differently. When he's at 100% or so, I try not to use as many damage racking moves (tilts, throws, etc) because he'll only get stronger. So you're basically fishing for a Fsmash or Dsmash (near ledge), a kick, or an Uair. Possibly a fully charged Phantom, too. Try not to sit in shield too much, or you might get Force Palm grabbed. Watch out for Double Team too. Both are crazy strong at high aura. Lucaro is tall, so a whiffed DT can be punished with a short hop kick, of you're fast enough. His FP blast can also be reflected. Other than the blast, his range is somewhat short, so take advantage of that. Oh, and don't bother trying to gimp him if he has aura. He'll come back anyways. Watch out for the Extreme Speed hitbox.

Diddyis a nightmare. The bananas are extremely disruptive. Reflecting isn't so useful, since the end lag on Nayru's prevents a followup, unless you read their wakeup. As for his SideB....I guess try rolling behind him if you expect it? Or maybe do a SH airdodge? I don't know a whole lot about Diddy. I guess you can try and vector away from his throw combos and Uairs.

Hardly know anything about Wario. Sorry.

Hope some of this helped! Typed on mobile, so typos and mispellings might pop up.

EDIT: Forgot to mention killing Lucario with the Farore's "Elevator" combo. Killing him at ~100% is great.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

3. Lucario: Lucario is so much easier to deal with than the other two but as soon as I get him over around 60%, I can't outrange his side-B

You can actually reflect Lucario's Side-B!

 

[Zylach]

I definitely didn't know I could reflect his force palm. That's really helpful!

@ Rickster the advice for Lucario is much appreciated. I'm usually scared of fishing for kill shots just because of the threat of getting punished but anything beats getting annihilated by a 100+% Lucario. Throwing out some F-smashes in hopes that I can kill him around 90--100% is probably a better bet. I'm hesitant about using Farore's Elevator. I absolutely love it but when it misses, Zelda gets super-punished which is why I like to use it OoS but staying out of shield to avoid FP is safer I imagine. It's an awfully tricky match.

As for Diddy, rolling behind him during his side-B would definitely get me out of it but then I have to worry about it from the other side. I'm curious whether I can use a jab or F-smash to hit him in the middle of it instead. As of right now, I feel like Zelda's safest answer to his side-B is her dash cancelled pivot grab. I still feel like it's not enough to save me from all of his options. I feel like that MU is naturally an uphill battle for Zelda. If only his u-air didn't kill as early as it does, I feel like I might have more of a chance just because it seems like that u-air is guaranteed out of his down throw. I've never been able to get out of it whether I VI it, air dodge, or use any attacks.

 

[Rickster]

I definitely didn't know I could reflect his force palm. That's really helpful!

@ Rickster the advice for Lucario is much appreciated. I'm usually scared of fishing for kill shots just because of the threat of getting punished but anything beats getting annihilated by a 100+% Lucario. Throwing out some F-smashes in hopes that I can kill him around 90--100% is probably a better bet. I'm hesitant about using Farore's Elevator. I absolutely love it but when it misses, Zelda gets super-punished which is why I like to use it OoS but staying out of shield to avoid FP is safer I imagine. It's an awfully tricky match.

As for Diddy, rolling behind him during his side-B would definitely get me out of it but then I have to worry about it from the other side. I'm curious whether I can use a jab or F-smash to hit him in the middle of it instead. As of right now, I feel like Zelda's safest answer to his side-B is her dash cancelled pivot grab. I still feel like it's not enough to save me from all of his options. I feel like that MU is naturally an uphill battle for Zelda. If only his u-air didn't kill as early as it does, I feel like I might have more of a chance just because it seems like that u-air is guaranteed out of his down throw. I've never been able to get out of it whether I VI it, air dodge, or use any attacks.

Glad to help. I'm kinda going off things I already know about Lucario, since I haven't fought many. The ones on FG I have fought weren't that good, lol. Keep in mind that you don't have to fully commit to the Elevator. If you feel that it won't connect, just teleport in place or away. And yes, this MU is very weird. Lucario makes everyone play differently, especially with the aura buffs.

Sorry I couldn't help with Diddy much. I have almost no experience with them. I got destroyed by Nakat's Diddy a few days ago. I think we can hit him out of his SideB...not sure if it has intangibily frames or not. If we can, Nayru's could also be a risky option, along with the pivot grab. As for his Uairs, air dodging is useless. You'll just get hit again right when it ends. I'm wondering if we can Farore's before the Uair to either escape or Elevator them....risky, but it could get a KO for us that close to the ceiling.

If "Elevator" catches on just LOL. Thank you Keitaro and Gunblade.

 

[Einyuri]

I can't say I've fought against Wario much so I can't give much insight on the MU for Zelda/Wario.

But I've played against Diddy Kong's and I usually end up winning my matches. The way I play the match up is I just play a spacing game of sorts. From the Diddy's I've faced, they try to get in a lot and keep pressure with the banana to setup strings or just continue pressure, but like I said I've learned that spacing helps against the matchup.

What they don't expect sometimes is the random Phantom Slash that you can send out towards them to keep your spacing game going, surprisingly against diddy's that like to pressure with the banana the phantom slash helps as it eats the banana and allows you to punish off of that.

As for Lucario; I've only faced a small handful of them but usually from what I've seen that works is.. surprisingly keeping pressure on them. Oh, and knowing when to use Nayru's Love. Like Erotic said Lucario's side-b is able to be reflected using Nayru's love, and of course his aura ball that he sends out. Though watch out for high percentages. With how light Zelda is you'll get sent flying if he manages to get a good hit on you if you're around the 70% area.

Another good way to beat a Lucario is to pressure them when they try to build up a quick aura ball to try to space with. Sending out a Din's Fire to create some pressure helps against that though.

Sorry that I can't help with the wario match up much. I just don't see him a lot online. Hope I was able to help.

 

[Zylach]

This was all really helpful. Hopefully more Wario experience will happen soon since it seems like few people are familiar with this MU.

@ Rickster I have a bit of a timing issue with Farore's Elevator. Backing out of it when I expect the opponent to go up is difficult for me since I don't feel like I have the reaction time. It's just something I have to practice more.

@ Einyuri Good advice against Diddy. I've always been afraid of the endlag on quick phantoms but with how aggressive Diddy plays, this sounds more viable than I originally thought. Good strat.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

when Wario isn't bike abusing you fight Wario like you fight Jigglypuff, its all a spacing game. you want to bait him into doing something and stop him from getting inside. Killing will happen eventually, but try to focus on not getting baited and juggled because Zelda doesn't have much of a defense in the air.

learn to replace Usmash with Utilt. unless they have a sword or are some immovable object (kirby stone) Zelda can Utilt almost any attempts at jumping on top of her. learn to time it better and save Usmash for those rare moments you feel it can get a big hit/kill.

If diddy pulls out a banana you want to try and get a hold of it if you can, or just avoid it. its better than reflecting because you can't really do much to him if you reflect the banana.

 

[Meek Moths]

whenevr diddis is pulling out bananas hit him with FW but time it well ;pppppppp

 

[CommanderPepper]

Whenever I fight fast characters like Diddy I try to stay just out of their sweet spot range. Like Diddy wants to apporach with his side B so I stay just outside of it. When they come near me I will put up a shield and throw out a neutral B. Also try putting out your neutral A when you see a side B from Diddy it can beat or trade with it.

 

[Zylach]

Good advice. I didn't realize how strong an anti-air Zelda's u-tilt was. If only the circle pad wasn't so sensitive I could use it more consistently. Definitely looking forward to the Wii U version. I also didn't realize that jab was so good against Diddy's side-B. Awesome stuff.

 

[KoeBigS8]

So guys, what about Sonic? There's so many of them online and I can't find a way to approach or even what to do when I recover, everything in his arsenal is faster than what I can dish out.

 

[Zylach]

I've definitely had problems against good Sonics. For me, it's all a game of patience. I'll shield through his full combo unless he screws it up which gives me a chance to punish him. As soon as he finishes his down-B->jump->something->something->d-air->spring whatever, I'll actually have a chance to do something. Zelda can actually trade with his down-B by using Nayru's Love interrupting his rhythm and giving us some breathing room at the very least, though you'll take more damage than him during the trade. I've found that timely use of her phantom is also good for breaking through his down-B as it pushes him away and should hopefully hit him out of his roll. Mostly, it's a game of keeping him out and off rhythm.

He's really really fragile too which should give us early kills on him. I have yet to try initiating Zelda's Farore's Elevator when he's in mid roll though. I wonder if we would just cancel it or if we would actually hit him up into the second hit. That might be worth a shot given you feel comfortable timing that. He tends to be in the air a lot if he's not rolling around in his down-B and our Nair is pretty disruptive to his aerial game. If spaced properly, it'll hit him out of his dair, nair, and I think it trades with his fair. That being said, it's not an easy matchup since a well-played Sonic will almost never give you breathing room which Zelda needs and you need to keep calm in order to stand a chance.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

nayrus eats through direct spin roll hits. You can also dtilt them and I think his dash attack to stop his approach. Sonic has very few moves that leave him open so you kind of just have to be patient and wait till an opening arrives. Fsmash is unpunishable though so if you see it you can try a back port faroes, or just wait.