Striking, Banning, and Counterpicking as Spacies

[burgerkong]

Hey everyone! I'm a new player to the SSBM competitive scene, dual maining Fox/Falco. Having just started playing SSBM seriously a couple of months ago, my tech skill isn't perfect yet, but I'm still looking to improve. I think that Falco is my better character atm, given I can pillar semi-consistently and SH laser consistently, but I prefer Fox vs. floaties and Sheik.

While my tech skill is still improving, I was hoping to also obtain some game knowledge, and maybe spark some discussion. Given that the Falco matchup thread is somewhat outdated (a couple years old, still has stages like KJ64, Brinstar, and Rainbow Cruise mentioned), I was hoping I could get advice on stage selection in a tournament setting, given that there will likely be a local tourney next month which I will likely be attending for the first time.

So here's my take on neutral strikes, Bo3 bans, and counterpicking against some of the popular characters, though I'm mainly picking characters that are common in my region (GTA in Canada):

VS - I would play in the neutral
Striking: FD would definitely be my first strike due to chaingrabs. Second strike would probably be Yoshi's, small stage and low ceiling mean easy shinespike gimps and up-smash/up-air kills, respectively. Smaller stage also makes lasering slightly harder.
Ban: FD. Chaingrabs
My Counterpick: Dreamland; big stage and high ceiling, basically opposite to Yoshi's. FoD would probably be my second counterpick, 2nd highest ceiling and the platforms allow for some nice combos and mess up Fox's aerial approach (and my lasering sometimes, but I think it's a worthy tradeoff). Stadium would be a final counterpick; the large stage means more lasering and lack of platforms make pillaring easier. Janky stage transformations can ruin your day, but Falco I think does well here, could go either way
Their Counterpick: Would probably go Fox mirror on all other stages (Yoshi's, Battlefield, FD).

VS - I would play in the neutral
Basically inverse of the Fox matchup. For some reason I don't like playing the mirror on the neutral stage, idk.

VS - I would play in the neutral
Striking: FoD seems to be the most popular Sheik stage; M2K seems to love picking this stage against spacies after FD, so I'm taking his word for it. The moving platforms can mess up both Fox and Falco's aerial game, and the small stage means easier gimps. Dreamland would be my second strike so that she doesn't live as long.
Ban: FoD.
My Counterpick: Stadium and Yoshi's for quick star KOs, FD to remove Sheik's platform game. Stadium and FD also have the advantage of having a larger stage so Fox can take advantage of his speed and get gimped less.
Their Counterpick: Would play Falco on pretty much all of their main counterpicks (Dreamland, FoD), since I feel he performs better there. FoD's smaller horizontal blastzones suit him better and he can at least use the platforms, and Dreamland allow him to laser and stuff better.

VS - Would likely play in the neutral.
Striking: FD FD FD. And FoD, for similar reason as Sheik.
Ban: I give you guys 3 guesses (hint: it starts with F and ends in D)
My Counterpick: As would counterpick Stadium, and as would probably counterpick Dreamland. Both are large stages to take advantage of Fox's speed and Falco's lasering respectively.
Their Counterpick: I feel Falco does better on all of Marth's main counterpicks. FD at least lets you laser to your heart's content, FoD at least lets you get quick horizontal kills and gives you a solid platform game. Battlefield I would however give to Fox; the ceiling isn't too high, and Fox shinegimps are brutal if you can get them under Battlefield.

VS - is an easy pick here. Upthrow up air, jab upsmash, etc. etc.
Striking: Dreamland and FoD are easy bans here. They have the highest ceilings
Ban: Dreamland, highest ceiling.
My Counterpick: Stadium, Yoshi's and FD. Stadium is Fox's dream stage (large for mobility, 2nd highest ceiling), while Yoshi's has the highest ceiling but opens you up more for edgeguards. FD is laser camp heaven and no platforms for tech-chase Rest platform shenanigans.
Their Counterpick: Fox all the way. Considered Falco on Dreamland after seeing PP's performance against HBox @ Tipped Off 9, but I guess Fox is just more consistent/requires less work.

VS - Again is king vs. floaties. Waveshine upsmash, up throw up air, nothing new here
Striking: FD chaingrabbing is an obvious first. Dreamland is probably second for survivability.
Ban: FD, chaingrabs
My Counterpick: Stadium and Yoshi's are easy counterpicks for identical reason to Jigs.
Their Counterpick: And again, Fox all the way.

VS - This one I'm not so sure about. I like going here since it's so easy to pillar > death him, but Fox can get those quick shinespike gimps and waveshines. They both dominate him in the matchup anyways.
Striking: Dreamland seems to be a common first, large stage is a boon for Falcon's mobility and high ceiling helps him survive off the top a lot more proportionally. Knee will still wreck you too, so it doesn't hurt his kill potential too much. Second ban would likely be Battlefield, but that might just be because Hax seemed to do very well there (vs. Javi @ Apex 2013 comes to mind)
Ban: Dreamland I would think.
My Counterpick: FoD seems to be the anti-Falcon stage (Fountain of Dead Dreams let's go), though I dunno if I would rather play Fox or Falco there. Would counterpick to FD and Stadium as Falco for sure as well, since Falco pillars, lasers and combos him very easily there. Fox on Yoshi's also seems good, since small stage constrains Falcon's movement and quick shinegimps are definitely a possibility; low ceiling makes upsmash kills more viable.
Their Counterpick: Falco on Dreamland for sure. Would likely pick Fox on Battlefield for shinegimps under Battlefield.

VS - seems to do better here. Shine splits them up, and his quicker movement makes getting grabbed out of dashdance and the like less likely. Shinegimping Nana is also a thing. I think Falco does fine vs. ICs, but Fox seems to just do better IMO
Striking: FD and FoD. FD has no platforms to escape to and is relatively big making gimping Nana slightly harder, and FoD seems to be a bad spacies stage overall given their emphasis on their aerial game (inversely, ICs emphasize the ground game).
Ban: FD
My Counterpick: Yoshi's and Stadium as Fox I think are pretty good counterpicks for quick star KOs on ICs, and the latter has a small stage for gimping Nana. Battlefield also doesn't seem bad either.
Their Counterpick: I would likely stay Fox for all stages. If anyone has any suggestions for when to use Falco, let me know, but it seems like Fox is preferable here most of the time.

VS - again seems preferable here.
Striking: FoD and Dreamland. FoD just seems to be an anti-spacies stage; Samus has platforms here for her upB and dies slower off the top, and the smaller stage means her lacklustre dash isn't as big a deal.
Ban: FoD
My Counterpick: Yoshi's and Stadium as Fox, and FD as Falco. Yoshi's and Stadium allow Fox quick star KOs, and Falco's laser game is super annoying on FD and no platforms to make upB safer.
Their Counterpick: Would use Falco on FoD and Dreamland, and Fox on Battlefield. Falco can at least take advantage of FoD's smaller horizontal blastzone, and can laser camp on Dreamland.

VS - Yet again, I like here as my neutral pick. Falco does extremely well here too obviously, but Ganon dies very quickly from upsmash and upairs due to his slow air speed, and Fox has slightly more room for error off random Ganon hits.
Striking: FoD and Yoshi's. Bigger stages really let's you take advantage of Ganon's ass movement, and these 2 also conveniently have the smallest horizontal blastzones as well.
Ban: Probably FoD. Yoshi's at least provides me the advantage of quick ceiling kills as Fox, while FoD doesn't really have any notable advantages (moving platforms mess up Fox's aerial > shine game at times, small horizontal blastzones).
My Counterpick: Stadium as Fox and FD and Dreamland as Falco scream out to me as easy counterpicks. Big stage for abusing Ganon's bad mobility.
Their Counterpick: Fox on Yoshi's for quick up kills, Falco on FoD. Battlefield seems to be equally good for Fox or Falco, but I'd likely pick Fox for survivability (he can eat an extra fair or two :D)

Sorry for the SUPER long-winded post, but I'm hoping some more experienced players can help me out and advance my game knowledge, and hopefully spark up some debate. Thanks in advance!

 

[La_Popo]

Last I remember, if you counterpick Marth to Yoshi's Story, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[burgerkong]

I dunno, nowadays Yoshi's seems to be a predominantly Fox stage, at least from what I've heard on commentary.

Extremely low ceiling allows kills on Marth from high 80s - 90s from upsmash and upthrow up air, and small stage allows shine spike gimps relatively easily if you can get them off the ledge.

The platforms also cover quite a bit of the level, so while you get ***** from below through the platform by uptilts and tippers, at least you aren't getting chaingrabbed as often.

The downside is his sword covers more of the stage proportionally, but if you can play the spacing game then Fox seems to do very well here on paper.

 

[Geoffrey Lee]

I feel like spacies vs Marth on Yoshi's story is kind of just like magnifying any skill gap there might be between the players. Platforms mean that Marth may have great setups for juggles and tippers, but Marth also gets combo'd so hard on this stage. It boils down to whoever can control the rhythm of the game better.

 

[Oskurito]

VS - I would play in the neutral
I think this match up depends a lot in the skills of the particular player, I feel like picking stages that can reduce fox's vertical killing potential and gimp opportunities is always a good idea but I wouldn't ban FD, FD seems pretty even to me, while fox has a lot of room for chaingrabs and whatnot you also have a lot of space to laser and combo the hell out of him, I think this depends a lot on the player abilities and how confident he feels about the match up, for example.. I personally like picking Yoshi's as well because I can stay close and personal and have lots of combo opportunities.

VS - I would play in the neutral
I guess you don't feel that confident in your falco skills, picking fox against falco requires you to have some solid DI, know how to combo him and chain grab him, and of course how to gimp falco early on with shine spikes. Practicing to shine spike falco when he uses side B is very useful, u-tilt / up smash and d-tilt work good as well against side B, shine spiking him while he's up Bing is sort of easy because his fire doesn't hurt you, if he shield pressures you don't try to challenge him, unless your confident on your shine oos then just roll away with the c-stick.

VS - I would play in the neutral
Up throw + uair and up smash are the best thing you can do against sheik, so picking stage that has low ceiling works well in your favor, your stage choices + counter picks seem pretty solid to me.

VS - Would likely play in the neutral.
Fine, everything else that is not FD is Ok against marth, CGs are a big pain.


VS - is an easy pick here. Upthrow up air, jab upsmash, etc. etc.
I thought FoD had a pretty low ceiling, everything else is fine.

VS - Again is king vs. floaties. Waveshine upsmash, up throw up air, nothing new here [...]
You got it, but I think a good peach can wreck fox pretty much anystage, depends on the player, the stages you listed give you the advantage though, be aware of peaches trying to sdi your uair.

VS - This one I'm not so sure about. I like going here since it's so easy to pillar > death him [...]
If you haven't played a good falcon you're in for a world of pain lol, a good c.falcon is not afraid of spacies in any stage, sure you can combo the hell out of him on FD but once he gets a grab on you you're dead or at least out of the stage, I would personally pick a stage with platforms so I can reduce his tech chase opportunities and still be able to combo him.

VS - seems to do better here. Shine splits them up, and his quicker movement makes getting grabbed out of dashdance and the like less likely [...]
The thing is.. falco's laser don't really disrupt ICs much, plus they can still use their own neutral B, you can still combo nana or gimp her if your fox really easy because she has dumb cpu DI, if I would have to play falco I would pick stages where ICs dont have much room to move, this can be kind of counter productive though because one grab may lead to dead, but I guees I'm confident on my comoability and pressure game. Fox seems a safer choice, shine spiking, camping overall seems safer.

VS - again seems preferable here [...]
You can gimp and kill samus too on FoD. What about going straight for BF? It kind of messes up her recovery and it has a relatively low ceiling as well.

VS - Yet again, I like here as my neutral pick. Falco does extremely well here too obviously [...]
I dont think ganon has bad mobility, maybe you haven't seen ganons moving quickly yet, I would strike FoD and Yoshi's to get rid of Ganons insane horizontal killing power, his fair power is brutal. But again, you may feel confident about gimping / comboing him theres so... Anyway, Stadium and FD seem solid choices, the problem with DL is its big ceiling that gives ganon more survivability, BF seems kind of neutral to me, but the ledge may mess up your sweet spotting chances a bit.

 

[burgerkong]

@ Oskurito

VS / - This is extremely player-dependent, so it's very subjective IMO. I'm really just going off of my own preference and a bit of stage knowledge, but it really changes depending on their playstyle (i.e. balls-to-the-wall aggressive like Mango vs. more analytical Dr. PP style would definitely influence your counterpicking decisions).

VS - FoD has the 2nd highest ceiling behind Dreamland. IIRC, in order of lowest to highest ceiling height:
Yoshi's < Stadium < FD < Battlefield < FoD < Dreamland

VS - While Peach does destroy Fox if there is skill differential, it's hard not to argue that Fox has the advantage in the matchup with his waveshine, shine gimps, and quick kills with upsmash and up air. And it's also hard not to argue FD is arguably the worst stage for spacies due to the CG, and Armada frequently counterpicks it against spacies.

VS - Sure FD does let him combo you and tech chase, but as FD lets you laser camp him to your heart's content, and 0-deathing him is especially easy on this stage. Either way, it's heavily in favour for spacies.

VS - Yeah, forgot her grapple is significantly gimped on BF, I'll keep that in mind. As for FoD, it's generally a bad stage for spacies IMO since it has a high ceiling for Fox and the moving platforms can mess up both spacies' aerial -> shine game whilst still giving Samus a safer upB ooS.

VS - It's very hard to argue he doesn't have bad mobility in comparison to most of the other top tier characters. And he also has no projectiles to mitigate his low run speed or to force approaches (a la Falco, Peach, and Samus), so it's especially glaring here.

 

[Oskurito]

vs Puff
Didn't know about the stages ceiling limits, I always felt like puff gets owned by fox's up smash pass 90% maybe except on dreamland (sry I'm kinda rusty against puff anyway, not many people play her on my city).

vs Peach
Yeah, def skip FD unless you want to camp her a lot and your confident on your defensive skills

vs Falcon.
This is a fun match up for me if the falcon is really good, basically, whoever gets the 1st hit (usually a grab in falcon's case) gets the momentum and the combo going. Just 2 guys comboing the hell out of each other all over the place lol, much more fun in falco dittos though (on a second thought, it may not be funny if the players are too campy).

vs Samus.
Yeah, FoD may be a bad choice because of the platforms letting her up B oos everytime she feels like it and the platforms make it safer for her and also grant her the possibility to ledge cancel it wich could lead to a bair/nair follow up to an edgeguard.

vs Ganon.
Yeah well, bad Ganons get owned, good Ganons can be difficult but you just need to learn the match up and really take into account what ganon can do like, fair, jab, uair, tech chase, etc. Just watch Kage vs westballz apex 2014.

 

[burgerkong]

@ Oskurito -

In general FoD seems like a bad spacies stage, though it seems the consensus seems to be that it's worse for Fox than Falco, though a common counterpick against both. Falco at least can take advantage of the platforms for combos and get quick kills off the small horizontal blastzones with fsmashes and stuff.



And with regards to the Kage vs. Westballz matchup, I watched it, and it was a close set. Westballz got hit in shield/coming out of shield by jab a lot and in the air a crapton due to bad spacing. Clearly underestimated Ganondorf's range and Kage's spacing, and Kage got a few good reads on him. Westballz was hitting punishes and the like, but he probably doesn't have much Ganon practice of Kage's level.

PP vs. Kage is pretty much the definition of how the matchup should go. Smart aggression, good spacing and abusing Falco's lasers and faster/higher priority aerials. Kage also missed a few edgeguard opportunities here (1st stock on Battlefield), but watching Westballz's match on BF followed immediately by PP's really shows how much patience and good spacing can make a difference.

 

[Oskurito]

Yes indeed, you're on the right track as a good player if you can tell why he lost and why PP won. Oh btw, if you would like to see certain techs, tricks and whatnot with falco then checkout my videos, I'm making a series of video to show different tricks you can do with falco (mostly for starters but it still has lots of advanced stuff as well). I'm not trying to promote myself or anything but I think that maybe it could help you.

 

[burgerkong]

Trust me, I'm not that good LOL, started playing only a couple of months back. I've been getting better at my tech skill and pillaring on flat stages (i.e. FD), but I still gotta practice shine waveland combos on stages with platforms (i.e. Battlefield, Yoshi's).

And thanks so much for the tech skill vids, I really appreciate it! The first one was great and very informative, and I definitely need to practice the platform drop lasers and the ledge jump lasers. Can't wait for the next ones!

As an aside, what do you usually do out of laser when it connects on approach? I usually shine, grab or nair depending on if they're blocking and go from there, but I guess it's situational/dependent on percentage.

Also, do you happen to know of any tech skill videos for Fox (or would you think about doing some ;D)? I imagine there are similar techniques, but stuff like SHDL is something Fox-specific IIRC.

 

[Oskurito]

After a laser I almost always grab, but if I catch them on the air or I happen to land right next to them I will shine or uptilt. The typical approach would be to nair or dair as most falcos do, wich is fine I guess, but it keep in mind that it can get predictable (not that is not viable, you could fake with a dd and whatnot).

Idk you could search on youtube I guess. Anyway, I'll make some fox techskill videos in the future, I'll like to finish the falco videos first though.