Streaming Melee With Input Lag ?

[Quartzeye]

So I recently purchased an Elgato HD, and I like to stream SSBM occasionally as it is a game I really enjoy playing. I notice a very small amount of input lag when capturing through the Elgato to the TV. I was wondering though, at big events like EVO and APEX, do they get any input lag while streaming it to Twitch.TV? If anyone knows whether or not they do, or if there are any work-arounds for the input lag, I'd love to know! Thanks

 

[Ultimate Mooch]

Bump please

 

[EPsilon933]

So I recently purchased an Elgato HD, and I like to stream SSBM occasionally as it is a game I really enjoy playing. I notice a very small amount of input lag when capturing through the Elgato to the TV

Because you're playing on an HDTV. See if you can get a CRT at a thrift store. They don't lag. They cost like $5-$10

I was wondering though, at big events like EVO and APEX, do they get any input lag while streaming it to Twitch.TV? If anyone knows whether or not they do, or if there are any work-arounds for the input lag, I'd love to know! Thanks

I think for most streamers, the stream packets gets transmitted 30 seconds after what actually happens on the capture preview. The TVs they play on don't lag

 

[Quartzeye]

Because you're playing on an HDTV. See if you can get a CRT at a thrift store. They don't lag. They cost like $5-$10



I think for most streamers, the stream packets gets transmitted 30 seconds after what actually happens on the capture preview. The TVs they play on don't lag

Oh alright, I see. The Elgato HD only has HDMI as an output though. Do you know what they use at APEX or EVO to actually stream it? Is it like, a splitter cable for the Component? Some other sort of Capture Card?

 

[EPsilon933]

Oh alright, I see. The Elgato HD only has HDMI as an output though. Do you know what they use at APEX or EVO to actually stream it? Is it like, a splitter cable for the Component? Some other sort of Capture Card?

I don't know what EVO does to stream Melee. VGBC uses Wii component cables that then go to a splitter. 1 split side captures the signal which gets streamed. The other split side goes to a component-to-composite converter which goes to the TV. Beyond that, I pretty much don't know anything about how they stream

I recommend reading this guide for learning how to set up an easy stream. It's for cheap capture cards like EasyCAP and Dazzle http://smashboards.com/threads/how-...-in-pseudo-hd-60-frames-second-easily.333301/

 

[Quartzeye]

I don't know what EVO does to stream Melee. VGBC uses Wii component cables that then go to a splitter. 1 split side captures the signal which gets streamed. The other split side goes to a component-to-composite converter which goes to the TV. Beyond that, I pretty much don't know anything about how they stream

I recommend reading this guide for learning how to set up an easy stream. It's for cheap capture cards like EasyCAP and Dazzle

Well thank you very much for the support! I appreciate it. Your insight definitely helps

 

[Kadano]

Oh alright, I see. The Elgato HD only has HDMI as an output though. Do you know what they use at APEX or EVO to actually stream it? Is it like, a splitter cable for the Component? Some other sort of Capture Card?

VGBC might use component → composite downsampling, but that’s really not the best setup altogether. Its recording quality is as good as possible, but the player CRT will have interlaced flicker. By using a 480p-capable Sony PVM CRT (180$-ish) you can display 480p component and feed its amped outputs to your Elgato. By doing so, you won’t make use of the Elgato’s HDMI output at all.

 

[Quartzeye]

VGBC might use component → composite downsampling, but that’s really not the best setup altogether. Its recording quality is as good as possible, but the player CRT will have interlaced flicker. By using a 480p-capable Sony PVM CRT (180$-ish) you can display 480p component and feed its amped outputs to your Elgato. By doing so, you won’t make use of the Elgato’s HDMI output at all.

So you're saying that the best way to stream would be buying a PVM CRT (Is there a difference between that and a regular CRT?) Having the GC / Wii plugged into the TV by AV cables, and then using output cables from the TV and putting those into the input on the elgato?

 

[MekBEASY]

So you're saying that the best way to stream would be buying a PVM CRT (Is there a difference between that and a regular CRT?) Having the GC / Wii plugged into the TV by AV cables, and then using output cables from the TV and putting those into the input on the elgato?

Yes. I personally use a Dazzle, which is a cheap solution. But I have the GC running into the CRT via component, and the TV has an output that I run to the Dazzle. Previously I was using a whacky set up with a Component to Composite jumper to a 4 base splitter into an HDMI output and it was about 100ms latency on the signal and the audio fell out of sync.

 

[Quartzeye]

Yes. I personally use a Dazzle, which is a cheap solution. But I have the GC running into the CRT via component, and the TV has an output that I run to the Dazzle. Previously I was using a whacky set up with a Component to Composite jumper to a 4 base splitter into an HDMI output and it was about 100ms latency on the signal and the audio fell out of sync.

I guess my only question would be, how standard do output, channels come on CRT's and do they come standard on HDTV's ? I don't really know how much lag is coming from my TV. I would imagine it's roughly, 100-200ms ? That's AV to the Elgato and then HDMI out from there to the TV, but when I'm hooking up the Wii straight to the HDTV, I can barely notice any input lag at all (I also have a lack of experience playing on a CRT). I was looking for a solution for an HDTV... but the way it see it a CRT seems to be the best and or only solution. [These questions are probably easy enough to find on Google, but I wanted to get an answer from the Smash community, so thanks!]

 

[Kadano]

So you're saying that the best way to stream would be buying a PVM CRT (Is there a difference between that and a regular CRT?) Having the GC / Wii plugged into the TV by AV cables, and then using output cables from the TV and putting those into the input on the elgato?

There are only a couple of PVMs that do 480p over component, and getting a 20" model of these for less than 200$ requires quite a bit of luck. Occasionally, these are sold locally for as little as 50$, but again, you can’t count on that.
The ones I know about are the PVM-20L5 and the PVM-20M7MDE, as well as the models @ShortFuse listed here.

I have two 480p CRT recording / streaming stations. The secondary one uses a Sony PVM-20M7MDE, which is fed by a softmodded Wii with (inofficial) YPbPr (“component”) video cables. The PVM’s amplified video passthrough is then sent to my Avermedia H727 internal video capture card.
The main one uses a couple of top-of-the-line CRT PC monitors (among them the Panasonic DiamondTron 2070SB, which was also sold as “NEC 2141SB” and “LaCie electron Blue IV”), which are fed by a RGBHV (“VGA”/D-SUB HD15 connectors) distribution amplifier that respectively is fed by Gamecube VGA cables. One of the dist amp’s output goes to my newer internal capture card, the StarTech PEXHDCAP (rebrand of the Yuan SC-500N1), which has much better quality than the Avermedia card.

My primary setup is what I recommend to everyone who wants to play and stream in the highest possible quality. The only downsides are:
1. Gamecube VGA cables are usually sold for a high price nowadays (90+$), unless you get lucky as I did
2. If you live in a PAL region, you need to mod your Gamecube to be able to force 480p, which is much more work than softmodding a Wii and requires opening the Gamecube and soldering in the modchip.

There are Wii VGA cables sold by Mayflash, but their video output is non-standard and can’t be dist-amped. It should be possible to use Wii YPbPr cables and a YPbPr→RGBHV converter, though. (I’ll buy one and report back.)

when I'm hooking up the Wii straight to the HDTV, I can barely notice any input lag at all (I also have a lack of experience playing on a CRT).

It might seem fine to you now, but eventually you or other people will be put off by the lag. And it is 100% sure that there is lag, the only thing that’s unsure is whether it’s somewhere around 8 milliseconds or 20+. But both are a couple of thousand times the lag of a CRT (670 nanoseconds), so I really don’t see a reason why you would not to go the reference standard way. Especially considering that 480p60-capable CRTs can be had for free nowadays.

 

[Quartzeye]

There are only a couple of PVMs that do 480p over component, and getting a 20" model of these for less than 200$ requires quite a bit of luck. Occasionally, these are sold locally for as little as 50$, but again, you can’t count on that.
The ones I know about are the PVM-20L5 and the PVM-20M7MDE, as well as the models @ShortFuse listed here.

I have two 480p CRT recording / streaming stations. The secondary one uses a Sony PVM-20M7MDE, which is fed by a softmodded Wii with (inofficial) YPbPr (“component”) video cables. The PVM’s amplified video passthrough is then sent to my Avermedia H727 internal video capture card.
The main one uses a couple of top-of-the-line CRT PC monitors (among them the Panasonic DiamondTron 2070SB, which was also sold as “NEC 2141SB” and “LaCie electron Blue IV”), which are fed by a RGBHV (“VGA”/D-SUB HD15 connectors) distribution amplifier that respectively is fed by Gamecube VGA cables. One of the dist amp’s output goes to my newer internal capture card, the StarTech PEXHDCAP (rebrand of the Yuan SC-500N1), which has much better quality than the Avermedia card.

My primary setup is what I recommend to everyone who wants to play and stream in the highest possible quality. The only downsides are:
1. Gamecube VGA cables are usually sold for a high price nowadays (90+$), unless you get lucky as I did
2. If you live in a PAL region, you need to mod your Gamecube to be able to force 480p, which is much more work than softmodding a Wii and requires opening the Gamecube and soldering in the modchip.

There are Wii VGA cables sold by Mayflash, but their video output is non-standard and can’t be dist-amped. It should be possible to use Wii YPbPr cables and a YPbPr→RGBHV converter, though. (I’ll buy one and report back.)


It might seem fine to you now, but eventually you or other people will be put off by the lag. And it is 100% sure that there is lag, the only thing that’s unsure is whether it’s somewhere around 8 milliseconds or 20+. But both are a couple of thousand times the lag of a CRT (670 nanoseconds), so I really don’t see a reason why you would not to go the reference standard way. Especially considering that 480p60-capable CRTs can be had for free nowadays.

Sorry for the late response! But thank you very much for the input. I didn't realize the amount of effort that had to be put in to get a stream with 0 lag. So in short, I'm going to need a 480p CRT, get a YPbPr cable for my wii, run the Wii to the dist amp, and then have one line going to the CRT, as well as one heading into the capture card (which in my case is the Elgato HD)? Or does the Wii get connected directly to the CRT, and then an output channel from the CRT is connected to the Elgato? Sorry if I'm being redundant, or if you answered that and I missed it. I'm still a bit confused as to how the actual setup would work. I really appreciate the help, though!

 

[Kadano]

Sorry for the late response! But thank you very much for the input. I didn't realize the amount of effort that had to be put in to get a stream with 0 lag. So in short, I'm going to need a 480p CRT, get a YPbPr cable for my wii, run the Wii to the dist amp, and then have one line going to the CRT, as well as one heading into the capture card (which in my case is the Elgato HD)? Or does the Wii get connected directly to the CRT, and then an output channel from the CRT is connected to the Elgato? Sorry if I'm being redundant, or if you answered that and I missed it. I'm still a bit confused as to how the actual setup would work. I really appreciate the help, though!

The Wii is connected directly to the PVM. The PVM has an in-built distribution amplifier.

Using standard 480i CRTs has no lag either, but 480p looks much better both for streaming and playing. At least 90% of the Melee setups use 480i, which is easier to get the equipment working for.