Still Need CRT's?

[SSS]

So obviously for Melee and Brawl (and 64? probably?) a CRT is needed to avoid lag. Will this be the case with the Wii U or will flat screens be viable? I know other games like Street Fighter and stuff use flat screens without a problem, so I was wondering if this new system could allow the HD input (or I guess output).

 

[Renji64]

This is a HD game so you will need HD tvs.

 

[Fishbowl]

That raises an interesting question that I'm also curious to know: does every game lag on an HD TV or are Gamecube games especially prone to that lag?

 

[SSS]

That raises an interesting question that I'm also curious to know: does every game lag on an HD TV or are Gamecube games especially prone to that lag?

Brawl (and therefore Project M) lag on HD TVs.

This is a HD game so you will need HD tvs.

You won't NEED HD TVs to play this game. It might look better, sure. But you don't NEED it.

 

[Raijinken]

Why aren't HD CRTs a thing yet? Kinda like how we have gaming mechanical keyboards.

That said, computer monitors may be a bit better (dunno for sure) since many are designed with gaming in mind.

 

[Big-Cat]

Why aren't HD CRTs a thing yet?

Why should they?

 

[SSS]

Pretty sure that by definition there can't be a HD CRT.

 

[Fishbowl]

It's just that.... CRTs are so heavy
Why can't there be a best of both worlds!?

 

[Vann Accessible]

There are HD CRT tvs. I have a Sony Trinitron that's HD. It isn't 1080p and only accepts component cables, but it is HD.

But I think flat screen LCD tvs are fine for the Wii U.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

HD games don't lag on HD tv's it's when you connect your wii to your HD tv when it lags
anything that uses color cord on a HD tv mean lag. HDMI? no lag then.

 

[WritersBlah]

This monitor had an article written on it on Shoryuken's front page. Apparently, it's a sub-1ms HD monitor with visual presets made especially for fighting games. You guys may want to give it a look.

 

[SSS]

This monitor had an article written on it on Shoryuken's front page. Apparently, it's a sub-1ms HD monitor with visual presets made especially for fighting games. You guys may want to give it a look.

Why would i buy a $230 tv that might not work with Melee when I could get a $15 CRT at Good Will?

 

[Roko Jono]

Why would i buy a $230 tv that might not work with Melee when I could get a $15 CRT at Good Will?

Some people play other games other than melee and would like to experience them lag free in HD. Also makes a good computer monitor :D

I use a 2ms monitor (HDMI port) when me and my friends record competitive fighters (including melee) and I don't see why anyone would want to complain with refresh rates that low. 1 frame in a 60 FPS game takes 16.7ms to render. The FGC community is fine with less than 1 frame response time on those kinds of monitors and I hope the smash community will be fine with it too.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Wii U uses HDMI so it shouldn't be a problem right?

Wont't be a problem for me at least. 3DS only here.

 

[Khao]

Why would i buy a $230 tv that might not work with Melee when I could get a $15 CRT at Good Will?

I don't know, why buy expensive entertainment systems when there's plenty games you can play on a piece of paper for free?

It might not be worth it depending on the person, but if you want it and can afford it, what else would you need?

 

[TerminalMontage]

What is CRT?

 

[infomon]

Be careful, lots of information out there is wrong, including in this thread.

CRT = Cathode Ray Tube, the technology behind regular "old" fat bubbly TVs. Get thee to the wikipi!

To understand lag in the context of TVs and fighting games, read @Fizzi 's fantastic article:
http://meleeiton.me/2014/03/27/this-tv-lags-a-guide-on-input-and-display-lag/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/26got5/quick_followup_to_miom_lag_article/

I use a BenQ RL2460HT as recommended earlier in this thread. What's interesting about it is that it has an HDMI out, so that if you want to use a capture device to record/stream matches, it doesn't have to sit in-between the console and the TV (where it could introduce its own lag). It can get its signal from the tv's HDMI Out, so that the TV can get the fastest possible input.

We as a community should probably start to whitelist specific HDTVs as valid for competitive play because their performance is equivalent/indistinguishable from CRTs (proven, not going off people's "perceptions" / johns).

The Wii-U has HDMI out which helps things immensely. The Wii only has component/composite via its AV cables, so to get this input into the best lagless "gaming monitors" you need to convert it to HDMI. Fizzi's follow-up mentions a few adaptors you might use. I have the Sewell Wii2HDMI. It slightly distorts the colours (over-gamma, so black becomes dark-muddy-gray), and is possibly a source of lag although I have no idea if it's at all a relevant amount. Anyway, this is not ideal, but the Wii-U should be absolutely fine to use with a high-quality and properly-configured gaming monitor like the RL2460HT.

 

[infomon]

One of the reasons why we need to migrate to gaming-monitors over CRTs is the aspect-ratio. Playing on 16:9 is different enough from 4:3, and so obviously intended as the default mode for this game, that I recommend we allow it (if we can't outright require it) for tournaments. Unfortunately the lagless HDTVs are prohibitively expensive so most tournaments will be stuck using 4:3 CRTs for most matches, for the foreseeable future.

But let's be careful not to view the world in a strictly CRT vs HDTV light.

 

[R0Y]

Wii U doesn't have a full RGB range setting like it's fellow HD competitors so this will look weird, but you could use a high refresh monitor instead. I wonder if tourneys will. 1920x1080 of course with an HDMI input.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I play GC Games on my HDTV all the time. I just got some 5 dollar component cables and play GC games via usb. Lagless. Even Melee.

Playing Melee without a CRT isn't that hard or expensive. Got rid of the that heavy ass box a long time ago.

I'll miss them, though.

 

[R0Y]

I play GC Games on my HDTV all the time. I just got some 5 dollar component cables and play GC games via usb. Lagless. Even Melee.

Playing Melee without a CRT isn't that hard or expensive. Got rid of the that heavy *** box a long time ago.

I'll miss them, though.

Some people, not you or I, seem to be hypersensitive to input lag. Beyond that, there also seems to be a small subset that like to John if the input lag is over an extremely low number. I'm not accusing most hypersensitive people of Johning though. Realistically I doubt most of the community notices or cares.

 

[D-idara]

Yeah, 16:9 VS 4:3 will always be reason enough.

 

[LancerStaff]

I play GC Games on my HDTV all the time. I just got some 5 dollar component cables and play GC games via usb. Lagless. Even Melee.

Playing Melee without a CRT isn't that hard or expensive. Got rid of the that heavy *** box a long time ago.

I'll miss them, though.

I have the expensive, official GC component cables and the lag is tremendous on my HDTV. Try playing a platformer on your GBA then sticking in a GBA player. The picture won't be any worse, but the imput lag makes games like Megaman Zero outright unplayable. Haven't tried Melee, but F-Zero GX isn't any easier. Wii U games are basically lagless compared to the GC, and that's with wireless controllers.

 

[speakerbox]

It must still be able to hook up to crts

 

[MrPanic]

Just look up what other fighting game tournaments use for their HD screens. Surely this whole "What HD-tv to use for competitive" dilemma has been solved a lot of times.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I have the expensive, official GC component cables and the lag is tremendous on my HDTV. Try playing a platformer on your GBA then sticking in a GBA player. The picture won't be any worse, but the imput lag makes games like Megaman Zero outright unplayable. Haven't tried Melee, but F-Zero GX isn't any easier. Wii U games are basically lagless compared to the GC, and that's with wireless controllers.

Nintendo's cables are ass.

The ones I got for. 5 bucks work very well. I'll post a link.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003L14Y9I

These haven't let me down.

 

[Chiroz]

There are HD CRT tvs. I have a Sony Trinitron that's HD. It isn't 1080p and only accepts component cables, but it is HD.

But I think flat screen LCD tvs are fine for the Wii U.

Component cables cannot do HD, the cables cannot transmit the data fast enough. It's the sole reason HDMI exists... Also I don't think it's possible to have HD CRTs, although I don't know what CRT technology really is so I am not sure.



I have already said this in many, many threads but...

Games that lag on HDTV is because either the game, the console or the cable does not transmit HD graphics and as such there must be a conversion into non-HD and then a conversion into a resolution the HDTV can understand. 2 conversions which take time and thus lag. (And there might be extra conversions if the game doesn't match the console or the console doesn't match the cable. But, normally games are made specifically for a console's resolution and the cables on the console are made specifically for the console's resolution, obviously).

The Wii U outputs in HD, Smash was made in HD, the HDMI cable was created to transmit the HD settings. As such as long as your TV is natively HD (meaning its not a cheap TV that only "upscales"), there will be no conversion for this game and thus there will be no lag.

Obviously it takes a lot longer to render 2073600 pixels than it does 384000 (almost 6 times longer!) but the time it takes to draw a pixel is very, very, very short. The lag always comes from conversion. So, no, Smash 4 won't lag on HDTVs.





Quite frankly if Sakurai did not make a 480p or less output option then using component cables on a CRT (or an HDTV for that matter) will actually lag the game. And it's very possible they did not include said option as gaming nowadays is completely in HD.

 

[the8thark]

There are HD CRT tvs. I have a Sony Trinitron that's HD. It isn't 1080p and only accepts component cables, but it is HD.

But I think flat screen LCD tvs are fine for the Wii U.

How can something be less than 1080p and still be considered HD? To me that's an impossibility. But I am sure someone here will prove me wrong.

 

[infomon]

720p, 1080i, and 1080p are all considered HD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdtv

 

[DraginHikari]

Why aren't HD CRTs a thing yet? Kinda like how we have gaming mechanical keyboards.

That said, computer monitors may be a bit better (dunno for sure) since many are designed with gaming in mind.

I'm no expert on the matter I would assume it's because their is a minimal market for them to have TV companies produce them as for 95% of things run fine on the current HDTV technology also they would have to be sold at specialist locations because of size and weight the comes with something like CRTs.

 

[Vann Accessible]

How can something be less than 1080p and still be considered HD? To me that's an impossibility. But I am sure someone here will prove me wrong.

720p, 1080i, and 1080p are all considered HD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdtv

There you have it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Nintendo's cables are ***.

The ones I got for. 5 bucks work very well. I'll post a link.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003L14Y9I

These haven't let me down.

Never had a third-party cable that didn't give out after a week. That, and one broke a port on my first GC. The official GC component cables are pretty thick, unlike the default cables.

Anyway, unless the cable is actively breaking, the difference in lag is unnoticable. The fact of the matter is that the GC will always lag on an HDTV.