Status on MELEE challengers for smash 4

[Auramaniji]

Stop me if you've already seen this, but apparently Sakurai stated that melee characters (because of their data) have to be built from the ground up for the new game.
You can read more about it here:
http://mynintendonews.com/2014/09/2...ash-bros-melee-is-difficult-due-to-aged-data/
UPDATE! DLC IN GAME!
September 24 2014
http://nintendonews.com/2014/09/download-stages-super-smash-bros-3ds/

 

[cmbsfm]

But hasn't he stated he builds every character from scratch? What's wrong with doing the same with melee?

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

But hasn't he stated he builds every character from scratch? What's wrong with doing the same with melee?

He probably meant something else. Like, maybe they mostly re-did the characters, but still used Brawl as a base? But for the unique Melee characters, it sounds like they'd have to completely re-create them. I.E. They'd take just as much time to re-create as it would to make a newcomer.

 

[Auramaniji]

But hasn't he stated he builds every character from scratch? What's wrong with doing the same with melee?

Melee has aged a ton.
13 years of old data that doesn't use the same formats as modern day game is a challenge to the development team, as they can not handle the old formats as good as the new ones. Also because of a new development team that is inexperienced (with smash) can not transfer old data files with ease, it's hard for a character to be transferred from one game to the next. They often have to start again from scratch just to get the character into the game unlike the Hal labs, which transferred most of the files with some delay.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

It sounds like he's alluding specifically to Mewtwo.

Importing characters from the previous game is already a little tricky, since one still has to revamp them to mesh well with the new engine. But to leap two games forward is probably so much work that it might as well be like making a whole new character.

The only character who leaped from Melee to SSB4 is Dr. Mario, and it's more likely that they just spun him off from the SSB4 Mario rather than importing him and rebuilding.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

They often have to start again from scratch just to get the character into the game unlike the Hal labs, which transferred most of the files with some delay.

Not quite sure what this means or is referring to.

As to your question everything is built from the ground up. Nothing is imported. EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has been rebuilt from the ground up. Also as Wanderer said, the only character going from Melee to Smash 4 is Dr Mario so it's not a big deal.

 

[Auramaniji]

Not quite sure what this means or is referring to.

As to your question everything is built from the ground up. Nothing is imported. EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has been rebuilt from the ground up. Also as Wanderer said, the only character going from Melee to Smash 4 is Dr Mario so it's not a big deal.

-My nintendo news

According to translations, Sakurai explains part of the development process for a Smash game is to migrate data from the older games, enabling their models and animations to be developed accurately. But as Melee’s data is so aged, the team would essentially have to build those past characters from scratch, extending the development process.

Excuse me for confusing you with my bad post, I was in a rush.
From this quote, DATA of characters is imported from one game to the next. Therefore, not every character is ENTIRELY built from the ground up except a few in this new edition of smash.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I wonder who he's talking about, I mean, what characters didn't make the jump from Melee into future smash games?

Pichu , a clone
Roy, a clone
Young Link, a clone

But all of these seem easy enough to be included into Smash 4 through cloning! The only one missing is Pichu, which would very well be easy to clone over Pikachu again, if need be. And Toon Link is basically Young Link, Lucina is sorta like a Roy successor (but that's pushing it) and we have Dr. Mario back - I wonder who he could be talking about. I mean what original Melee character didn't make the cut into Brawl, and possibly, Smash 4?

How about the only original character that was excluded from Brawl mysteriously - Mewtwo!

Can we all take in, that the only characters who haven't made sort sort of return or spiritual return to smash are Pichu, Roy and Mewtwo? Imagine! Mewtwo being classed beside Pichu - not deserving to return! And again, Roys moveset was adopted by Lucina, so really, Mewtwo is sitting here out to dry. But alas, it'd be just too dang hard to remake Mewtwos moveset from scratch! Now that the Melee data is outdated and all, it would be like making a new character! I mean, it isn't like a team of programmers put him into Project M, right?




\*Sarcasm Voice Turned Off*
I try to support Sakurai, I really do, but if he doesn't let Mewtwo return because of "outdated" data, my respect for him will decline.

 

[KawaiiPiranha]

I don't know if something was lost in translation here or what.
"It's difficult" shouldn't be an excuse when it comes to adding content that people want to see in the game.

People WANTED to see Mewtwo. "It's too hard" just comes across as lazy to me. Even if bringing over his model/animations was impossible, they really couldn't have just built him from scratch?

Man, I love Sakurai and his games. But it seems like every time he does an interview, I like the guy less and less. Limiting one version of the game because of hardware limitations of the other version, not bringing back characters people want because "it's old data"... eh...

 

[Zol]

"but if i put in the characters you want, how will i shove more Pit recolors in the game!?"

 

[Deathcarter]

I don't know if something was lost in translation here or what.
"It's difficult" shouldn't be an excuse when it comes to adding content that people want to see in the game.

People WANTED to see Mewtwo. "It's too hard" just comes across as lazy to me. Even if bringing over his model/animations was impossible, they really couldn't have just built him from scratch?

Man, I love Sakurai and his games. But it seems like every time he does an interview, I like the guy less and less. Limiting one version of the game because of hardware limitations of the other version, not bringing back characters people want because "it's old data"... eh...

The worst part with what he said is that most fans would want Mewtwo to be remade from the ground up anyway given how awful he was in Melee.

 

[iam8bit]

He probably did consider Mewtwo but just didn't make him a priority over the newcomers that DID make it in the game. He would've been made from scratch, so he was treated like a newcomer and, since he's not entirely new, was made low priority.

Oh, and to anyone still thinking he LITERALLY makes characters from scratch from game to game... he doesn't. It would be a waste of time and resources NOT to reuse data from Brawl in Smash 4.

He probably just meant that Brawl movesets/models aren't set in stone, as in, they consider if each character should keep their moves or change them up and go from there. Or they just do knockback/damage for each move from scratch but reuse models and animations.

"but if i put in the characters you want, how will i shove more Pit recolors in the game!?"

Well to be fair, as much as Dark Pit sucks, he must've been much easier to implement than Mewtwo. Why he got in instead of Lucas or Wolf though, is the real mistery.

 

[Zol]

Well to be fair, as much as Dark Pit sucks, he must've been much easier to implement than Mewtwo. Why he got in instead of Lucas or Wolf though, is the real mistery.

laziness is my guess

personally i couldn't give a **** less about mewtwo but there's still loads of better characters they could've at least TRIED to bring in instead of a few clones. the fact one only exists because of a palette swap in Brawl is like a smack in the ****ing face though

 

[κomıc]

Well, in 2012 he did say he'd use the core data of Brawl as a starting point. The same thing he did from Melee to Brawl.

 

[Auramaniji]

Well to be fair, as much as Dark Pit sucks, he must've been much easier to implement than Mewtwo. Why he got in instead of Lucas or Wolf though, is the real mistery.

Here's the quote if you tl;dr iam8bit.

Sakurai also touched upon the 3DS game’s Smash Run mode enemies, where those characters selected needed to adhere to a set of specific guidelines, ranging from enemy originality to the maintenance of balance between enemy height and weights. As such, the amount of enemies from Kid Icarus: Uprising is larger due to the original 3DS models and their ability to fit smoothly within the set enemy guidelines.

~Mynintendo News

This quote suggests Sakurai did import a large variety of enemies from kid Icarus (3DS) because of their accessibility. Maybe, at one point and time imported DARK PIT during development and decided he should take a slot.
...Guessing he wanted the game out faster for the holiday season and decided dark pit was the better option.
- I'd rather have a game delay for .

 

[ShrekItRalph]

Here's the quote if you tl;dr iam8bit.

~Mynintendo News

This quote suggests Sakurai did import a large variety of enemies from kid Icarus (3DS) because of their accessibility. Maybe, at one point and time imported DARK PIT during development and decided he should take a slot.
...Guessing he wanted the game out faster for the holiday season and decided dark pit was the better option.
- I'd rather have a game delay for .

Smash 4 being delayed till after the holidays would basically kill Nintendo at this point. Smash 4 is not only Nintendo biggest upcoming game, so not having it out in time for the holidays would cut into sales, but is also the launching point for the Amiibo's. I doubt Nintendo would have let Sakurai delay the game to put in one character even if he wanted too.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think then not releasing before the holidays would kill Nintendo it would be a huge hindrance considering how big sales are around the holidays.

Not the mention the Smash itself is a very successful franchise and a huge money maker for Nintendo. I would expect the WiiU version to come out at least before Christmas on that alone.

 

[ShrekItRalph]

I don't think then not releasing before the holidays would kill Nintendo it would be a huge hindrance considering how big sales are around the holidays.

Not the mention the Smash itself is a very successful franchise and a huge money maker for Nintendo. I would expect the WiiU version to come out at least before Christmas on that alone.

Yeah, kill Nintendo is a bit over the top, but my point stands about how dumb it would be for them to delay the game to put one character in. Particularly since we live in the age of when game developers can add content into the game as patches or DLC.

 

[ErenJager]

Game Cube is 13 years old
New 3DS coming out this year.

Game Cube can handle Ice climbers, new 3DS can't, mind blown.

 

[Auramaniji]

Yeah, kill Nintendo is a bit over the top, but my point stands about how dumb it would be for them to delay the game to put one character in. Particularly since we live in the age of when game developers can add content into the game as patches or DLC.

Well that's true.
Update:
DLC In game!
http://nintendonews.com/2014/09/download-stages-super-smash-bros-3ds/

 

[TheDMonroeShow]

Man, I love Sakurai and his games. But it seems like every time he does an interview, I like the guy less and less. Limiting one version of the game because of hardware limitations of the other version, not bringing back characters people want because "it's old data"... eh...

This is exactly how I feel. I really hope we get some new blood in for the next smash. I appreciate what Sakurai has done for the series but I can't really agree with a lot of decisions particularly what we find out from interviews.

 

[DonkaFjord]

Smash 4 being delayed till after the holidays would basically kill Nintendo at this point. Smash 4 is not only Nintendo biggest upcoming game, so not having it out in time for the holidays would cut into sales, but is also the launching point for the Amiibo's. I doubt Nintendo would have let Sakurai delay the game to put in one character even if he wanted too.

That and DLC is a viable option so characters, stages, etc. can still be added later on to cash in even more as well as use up any assets that are semi finished. It's a win-win.

Game Cube is 13 years old
New 3DS coming out this year.

Game Cube can handle Ice climbers, new 3DS can't, mind blown.

You are forgetting about online connectivity, the 3D, and the fact that handhelds really aren't power houses. The 3D itself is a gimmick that strains the system's frame rate. Even then I bet the new 3ds could handle them.

 

[KawaiiPiranha]

This is exactly how I feel. I really hope we get some new blood in for the next smash. I appreciate what Sakurai has done for the series but I can't really agree with a lot of decisions particularly what we find out from interviews.

Yeah, I mean I still have a ton of respect for the guy, and I love everything he's done for the series so far, but I'd like to see what would happen if someone else was in charge next time.

 

[ORVO5]

I try to support Sakurai, I really do, but if he doesn't let Mewtwo return because of "outdated" data, my respect for him will decline.

Yep! I'm gonna buy Smash 3DS since I already have a 3DSXL, but I'm gonna wait until Mewtwo's announced (if ever) to buy a Wii U and Smash 4. If he doesn't make it in as a DLC, that's proof enough for me that Sakurai chose to snub a good portion of his fanbase, so I'd rather not support him as a creator. There's no reason why he should be left out, he's still relevant. Mewtwo's the last piece of the puzzle missing for me.

 

[TheDMonroeShow]

Yep! I'm gonna buy Smash 3DS since I already have a 3DSXL, but I'm gonna wait until Mewtwo's announced (if ever) to buy a Wii U and Smash 4. If he doesn't make it in as a DLC, that's proof enough for me that Sakurai chose to snub a good portion of his fanbase, so I'd rather not support him as a creator. There's no reason why he should be left out, he's still relevant. Mewtwo's the last piece of the puzzle missing for me.

Well at that point your more saying screw you to the wii u version then sakurai since you're already buying his product.

 

[Niala]

Well that's true.
Update:
DLC In game!
http://nintendonews.com/2014/09/download-stages-super-smash-bros-3ds/

Keep in mind that in Brawl you could also download stages built via Stage Builder from other players. This doesn't mean DLC is confirmed in the sense of extra content from Nintendo.

I realize there is no stage builder in Smash3ds, I just mean to point out it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

[Naglfarii]

I don't know if something was lost in translation here or what.
"It's difficult" shouldn't be an excuse when it comes to adding content that people want to see in the game.

People WANTED to see Mewtwo. "It's too hard" just comes across as lazy to me. Even if bringing over his model/animations was impossible, they really couldn't have just built him from scratch?

Man, I love Sakurai and his games. But it seems like every time he does an interview, I like the guy less and less. Limiting one version of the game because of hardware limitations of the other version, not bringing back characters people want because "it's old data"... eh...

Time constraints are a real thing you know.

Tbh though go ahead and remake him from scratch sakurai people didn't actually like how mewtwo played very much

I'd like him as dlc, but eh the game looks amazing as is

 

[ORVO5]

Well at that point your more saying screw you to the wii u version then sakurai since you're already buying his product.

Well, it's a $40 game compared to a $400 purchase for the console and game. I assume Sakurai gets a cut for every game sold, so at least on the Wii U aspect, I won't be supporting him. Or Nintendo for supporting his decision.

 

[PikaSamus]

Game Cube is 13 years old
New 3DS coming out this year.

Game Cube can handle Ice climbers, new 3DS can't, mind blown.

It's probably because Sakurai wanted the game to have 60FPS characters at all times in 3D, which it couldn't do. They might have worked, but, if so, Sakurai's framerate stuff likely caused him to cut them.

 

[DonkaFjord]

I like ho

Well, it's a $40 game compared to a $400 purchase for the console and game. I assume Sakurai gets a cut for every game sold, so at least on the Wii U aspect, I won't be supporting him. Or Nintendo for supporting his decision.

How I understand it is that usually the Developers (Team Sora, Bandai-Namco) is payed by the Publisher mostly in advanced for the game so they can fund their costs including paying the employees so this game could flop and the employees who already worked and finished the project wouldn't feel it in the short term.

Also a simple side note is that it is impossible to make everyone everywhere at any time happy especially a game with as many fans as Smash. Also the Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters added are up to not just Sakurai, But Gamefreak/Pokemon Company/Intelligent Systems, etc. whom he has to meet with and discuss possibilities and their franchises' representation. Adding content and polishing a new game isn't as easy as people thing with the deadlines, debugging, polishing, waiting for ratings, fixing issues and then fixing any issues caused by fixing issues (Programmer's hell,) getting the Higher-Up's okay, legal issues, hardware issues, localization issues, etc. and so forth and that's before you add in the angry fans and budgeting.

 

[ChikoLad]

People keep saying Mewtwo not being in the game, and this interview, are more offensive due to the presence of clones. But those people need to get better at reading comprehension.

We all know the clones are just extras that are easy for them to add, they don't really effect other non-clone characters.

Mewtwo is a different beast entirely. Yeah, Dr. Mario is back, and I hate that for my own reasons. But he had no bearing on Mewtwo.

From what I understand, adding Mewtwo would have cost us a newcomer, since adding him would take just as much effort as a non-clone newcomer.

In that case, I would personally say Mewtwo should have been added instead of Greninja. However, we also have Game Freak in the way of that. They probably wanted a more recent Pokemon in the game.

So I really don't get why people are getting angry at Sakurai over this in relation to Mewtwo.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

People keep saying Mewtwo not being in the game, and this interview, are more offensive due to the presence of clones. But those people need to get better at reading comprehension.

We all know the clones are just extras that are easy for them to add, they don't really effect other non-clone characters.

Mewtwo is a different beast entirely. Yeah, Dr. Mario is back, and I hate that for my own reasons. But he had no bearing on Mewtwo.

From what I understand, adding Mewtwo would have cost us a newcomer, since adding him would take just as much effort as a non-clone newcomer.

In that case, I would personally say Mewtwo should have been added instead of Greninja. However, we also have Game Freak in the way of that. They probably wanted a more recent Pokemon in the game.

So I really don't get why people are getting angry at Sakurai over this in relation to Mewtwo.

It's Mewtwo, what else is there to explain?

I really don't know how much time it would've took for the clones in comparing to one character. Maybe some of us would rather have just Mewtwo back over the three clones, while others depend

 

[DonkaFjord]

It's Mewtwo, what else is there to explain?

I really don't know how much time it would've took for the clones in comparing to one character. Maybe some of us would rather have just Mewtwo back over the three clones, while others depend

Back in Melee Sakurai said the 6 clones we got were in place of what was going to be King Dedede as an original character. So 6 clones=1 original character in Melee days (Also the forbidden 7 being scrapped in Brawl and Sonic being added last minute could possibly be a similar but reverse scenario.) During development of smash 4 he has stated adding characters is more like a multiplication of work instead of an addition. It makes sense because each character added needs a kirby hat, moveset, trophy, music, stage, voice clips, and when you add something like Snake or Mr. Game & Watch you have to add unique animations for every character for their unique grabs and gimmicks like the codec calls. Also the clones added in Smash 4 seem to be upgraded alt costumes, but that's just speculation- it makes sense though since we know the ice climbers (and maybe more???) were cut late in development since Sakurai said they were functional on the Wii U version. Clones don't take as much time as an original character, but they still take some resources- doesn't mean it was enough resources to make a fully fledged original character though.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm OK with clones/semi-clones on a principle level, but the problem is that they are rarely done well. In Smash 4's case, the choices/implementation are terrible:

really had no excuse. He was gone in Brawl. Alt costumes are more of a thing in Smash 4. Mario Tornado could have been a custom move. And in Melee, he was a blatantly buffed , which is annoying, since this inherently limited 's appeal as a competitive fighter, all because they wanted to make a lazy excuse for a clone. And I'm worried this will happen again in Smash 4, which would be a shame, because I really like how plays, from my time with the demo, and I'd rather not have to feel forced to use just because he is objectively better by a significant margin.

is literally just a texture swap of in terms of appearance. Again, he could have been an alt, just like and the Koopalings. However, what bothers me most is that he ALSO could have been at least a semi-clone. And even a completely unique character, if they made use of Uprising's weapons and made that his focus. Even his CSS render hints at such a thing. However, they just made him a clone. And honestly, I've been watching footage of him, and besides the Final Smash (which is a reskinned version of 's and 's), I find it really difficult to notice what's actually different about him compared to in terms of gameplay. His differences are likely way too subtle if I can't pick up on them easily.

at least looks easily different to due to the difference in sex, despite dressing similarly. However, my problem with her is firstly, that her moveset, animation wise, is identical to . Secondly, she is 's equivalent to in Melee - she is an objectively better version of . Seriously, does not look like much fun to play, and doesn't look nearly as effective as in Melee or Brawl. However, is on training wheels - she's a lot faster (as fast as used to be), and does not have the tipper mechanic has. And I just hate clones that go in this direction. It means the source character is completely overshadowed.

So I'm not bothered about the clones because of Mewtwo's absence, or Sakurai's statement, because the clones have no bearing on either. I'm bothered by the specific clone choices. I'd rather and had returned, as I'm sure at least one of them would have been possible if not for the clones.