Standing for Pledge of Allegiance in Public Schools

[samdaballer]

Hey guys, I was reading the why should i feel proud of my country thread, and this and some past experiences evoked me to post this discussion. First of all, I believe it is one's right and freedom of speech/expression to not stand and not be penalized for it. I remember in eighth grade, i didn't stand one time, and my teacher started yelling and I told him "OK, report is see what happens, I'll get you fired" and he shut up. and once again last year, a classmate did not stand and the teacher got upset and told the students he was not allowed to come to tutorial ( a free period where you can go to any class but you have to be in a classroom). Also something else to look at: http://www.startribune.com/nation/18800444.html All in all, how do you feel about being penalized/forced to stand during the pledge of allegiance, and are your rights being violated?

 

[blazedaces]

I suggest people who read this thread read the following: history of the pledge of allegiance.

It's illegal and unethical to force people to recite the pledge. The nationalist movement is nothing but useless propaganda that leads to things like the holocaust.

Why does one have to recite the pledge to be proud of their country to begin with?

-blazed

 

[Mewtario]

I suggest people who read this thread read the following: history of the pledge of allegiance.

It's illegal and unethical to force people to recite the pledge. The nationalist movement is nothing but useless propaganda that leads to things like the holocaust.

How? I do not see where this reason came from. On a side note, no one is forced to.

Why does one have to recite the pledge to be proud of their country to begin with?

-blazed

It's respectful. It's as easy as that. It's like attending a wake if someone passes on.

 

[Crimson King]

So, you do it because you are expected to?

Wow, way to have character, a spine, and beliefs.

 

[Amide]

If you don't like your country, you shouldn't be forced to do the pledge. One time, someone in school didn't stand for the pledge. The teacher asked why, and was quite angry. The student replied "I'm not proud of what our country has been doing lately." Let's just say he wasn't in that class ever again... Fortunately, another teacher had no problem with it and he switched to her class.

 

[Stroupes]

I do the pledge because I want to. You shouldn't have to pledge if that's not what you want.
That's what this country's all about, freedom to expresss your opinions.
That's why I pledge. If nothing else, you should be proud that this country is great enough to allow you not to pledge to it.

 

[blazedaces]

How? I do not see where this reason came from. On a side note, no one is forced to.

Do you people not read or something? Read the article in the ORIGINAL POST of this thread. That's forcing in every sense of the word...

"Hey people, if you don't do what I say, you're kicked out of MY HOUS'!"

When you say how, are you asking how it's illegal or unethical to force someone to recite the pledge? Or are you asking how a nationalist movement can lead to the holocaust?

Both questions have fairly obvious answers...

It's respectful. It's as easy as that. It's like attending a wake if someone passes on.

Guys, killing jews is respectful. "It's as easy as that."

Seriously, this is your argument? "It just is"...

-blazed

 

[samdaballer]

isn't it also a violation of the first amendment, more specifically you not wanting to express what the pledge and your country stands for?

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

isn't it also a violation of the first amendment, more specifically you not wanting to express what the pledge and your country stands for?

No. According to the first ammendment, you can say what you want. If someone truely loved what the pledge stood for, then even if they disagreed with someone who wouldn't stand and say it, they would defend their right to do it.

I remember a few years back, in the 7th grade, I didn't stand for the pledge one morning. It was just recently that the war in Iraq was declared, and I had just read that about 50 troops died in the last week. I wasn't having a very patriotic day. Well, my teacher saw me sitting in my desk and took me into the hall. She gave me about a 20 minute lecture about how not standing for the pledge is against America. She said that if I didn't stand for the next pledge, she would send me to the office. (She was bluffing; I didn't stand for the rest of the week.) After she was done, I walked back into class and resumed the lesson. I now realise that it was she who was being unpatriotic by restricting my free speech.

 

[samdaballer]

No. According to the first ammendment, you can say what you want.

are you saying it is not one's right to not stand for the pledge of allegiance? After some research I have found out that the freedom of speech is actually the freedom of all expressions, and the medium of the point expressed does not matter

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

are you saying it is not one's right to not stand for the pledge of allegiance? freedom of expression is synonymous with freedom of speech in this country, giving you the right to stand or not as you choose. I also commend you IWontGetOverTheDam for standing in what you believe in

I think I may have misunderstood your quote. What did you mean by it?

 

[samdaballer]

if one is penalized for not standing for the pledge of allegiance, it violates are first amendment

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

Oh. Yeah, I misunderstood. Yes, I definately agree with you there.

 

[Ørion]

I think it is important to make a distinction here, between standing and saying. So you don't want to say the pledge, whatever, just don't say it. But to me, standing up is just respectful to a country, not necessarily even showing that you agree with the country. If you go to a hockey game, they sing the US and Canadian national anthems (not exactly a pledge, but similar enough) and people stand up for both, it's just respectful to the country and to other people.

 

[blazedaces]

If you go to a hockey game, they sing the US and Canadian national anthems (not exactly a pledge, but similar enough) and people stand up for both, it's just respectful to the country and to other people.

Why? "It just is" ... is not a good enough argument.

-blazed

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

I think it is important to make a distinction here, between standing and saying. So you don't want to say the pledge, whatever, just don't say it. But to me, standing up is just respectful to a country, not necessarily even showing that you agree with the country. If you go to a hockey game, they sing the US and Canadian national anthems (not exactly a pledge, but similar enough) and people stand up for both, it's just respectful to the country and to other people.

But if someone should be expected to stand, everyone else should be expected to understand if someone doesn't want to.

 

[pockyD]

Are students in school allotted freedom of expression to begin with? What about dress codes and other things chalked up to "disturbing the learning process"?

 

[blazedaces]

Are students in school allotted freedom of expression to begin with? What about dress codes and other things chalked up to "disturbing the learning process"?

Who cares?

You're either arguing that these other requirements (like dress codes) are wrong or that not standing up for the pledge of allegiance is somehow "disturbing the learning process".

It's probably more easy to argue that forcing groups of people to stand up to some arbitrary "pledge" somehow equated to nationalistic pride is "disturbing the learning process" than to make your argument.

-blazed

 

[samdaballer]

Are students in school allotted freedom of expression to begin with? What about dress codes and other things chalked up to "disturbing the learning process"?

to some degree yes. for example the strict dress codes are only for public schools (uniforms) and the ones for example no sexual stuff or cuss words on your shirt i understand at school. because if a girl was wearing barely any clothes and was hot, that would be disturbing the classroom process

 

[pockyD]

First off, for the record, I will say that I believe the pledge is stupid and pointless, and there's no reason to require it.

Who cares?

You're either arguing that these other requirements (like dress codes) are wrong or that not standing up for the pledge of allegiance is somehow "disturbing the learning process".

Given that the pledge is "required", it's quite clear that not standing does, in fact, disturb the learning process. Didn't someone just say their teacher took them into the hall and talked to them for 20 minutes? 20 minutes of lost class time is nothing to sneeze at.

My argument is that there's already (pretty widely accepted) precedent for denying freedom of expression in the school environment, so I don't understand how people can suddenly start waving their first amendment flags around and find it preposterous that they aren't getting more support

Remember, the topic at hand is choosing not to stand for the pledge, not abolishing the mandatory pledge (which I would be for)

It's probably more easy to argue that forcing groups of people to stand up to some arbitrary "pledge" somehow equated to nationalistic pride is "disturbing the learning process" than to make your argument.

I don't really understand what this means. The pledge is stupid, but so is so much other stuff in public schools, things that are probably more important

 

[Vro]

I agree with Orion. There is a large difference between standing for the pledge and reciting it. I personally don't recite it because I don't quite follow or believe in the path our country is choosing. However, I stand in respect for where I live, and to respect others around me.

The high school I just graduated from, and many other schools to my knowledge, also were forced to have a 15 sec moment of silence each day. Granted, many people refused to abide (1st amendment, once again), I choose to follow it. Apparently the silence was intended for students to pray or reflect, should they choose to do so. I didn't feel the need to do either, however I felt the responsibility to remain silent in case anyone else wanted that silence.

Showing respect to others while still holding your beliefs, that's where the money's at.

 

[blazedaces]

First off, for the record, I will say that I believe the pledge is stupid and pointless, and there's no reason to require it.

Glad we agree man.

Given that the pledge is "required", it's quite clear that not standing does, in fact, disturb the learning process. Didn't someone just say their teacher took them into the hall and talked to them for 20 minutes? 20 minutes of lost class time is nothing to sneeze at.

The thing is, it's not required right now at all. In fact, it's ruled that if you actually try to "require" it you're committing an illegal act, even in schools. That overrides the school's jurisdiction. The teacher wasting 20 minutes of class time is simply because the teacher is an intolerable a-hole. I agree that intolerable a-holes are "disturbing to the learning process"...

My argument is that there's already (pretty widely accepted) precedent for denying freedom of expression in the school environment, so I don't understand how people can suddenly start waving their first amendment flags around and find it preposterous that they aren't getting more support

As I said, in this case, we are getting support. And to be honest, dress codes and certain other specific cases are simply not as important as this one. Why? Because the pledge is a national issue whereas dress codes and other cases are only specific to a specific school. It also is for some reason quite a bigger deal to people than the dress code. If someone doesn't come to school dressed correctly they're told to go home and get dressed again. If someone doesn't stand for the pledge they get suspended or get a 20 minute lecture about how they're being unamerican. I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous how stupid this topic sounds to me.

It's also in my opinion infringing on one's freedom of religion as well. The most recent controversy about the pledge has to do with the line "under god".

I don't really understand what this means. The pledge is stupid, but so is so much other stuff in public schools, things that are probably more important

Then bring up debate topics about those things. I don't think this is an unimportant topic at all. We're forcing children who sometimes don't even know all the words in the pledge to recite it every morning. If you asked someone who had never lived with this, it would sound sick to you. I know it sounds sick to me.

-blazed

 

[marthanoob]

If you asked someone who had never lived with this, it would sound sick to you. I know it sounds sick to me.

I agree.
I've lived with it, but I would relate it to communist parades. Mindless activities which people follow so that it will be so drilled into your mind that you can't imagine anything anyway else.
Sort of like journalists who think the louder and more times they say something, the more the public believes it, which is true to a certain degree.

 

[Vro]

I don't follow how the pledge is a mindless propaganda running machine. You're never, ever, required to recite it. Standing up for it is mostly courtesy.

 

[marthanoob]

I don't follow how the pledge is a mindless propaganda running machine. You're never, ever, required to recite it.

It isn't required, but it is a mindless propaganda running machine.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
First phrase, would you listen if the administration told you to jump off a cliff? *cough* Vietnam *cough* Next.
Third phrase, some of us don't believe in God for logical reasons.
Fourth phrase, democrats and republicans.
Fifth phrase, not 100%.

Standing up for it is mostly courtesy.

Is courtesy another way to say "doing something for no reason"? Or "conforming to avoid conflict"?

 

[Eor]

Don't act like you're some sort of rebel because you don't stand up for it. I stand up to avoid conflict because sitting down would do nothing but cause problems. You're in a classroom, I really doubt most people care. And for the argument, I think the pledge is illegal, I don't recite it.

 

[marthanoob]

Don't act like you're some sort of rebel because you don't stand up for it. I stand up to avoid conflict because sitting down would do nothing but cause problems. You're in a classroom, I really doubt most people care. And for the argument, I think the pledge is illegal, I don't recite it.

...?

I conform to avoid conflict too. Did I make it sound like I didn't?

 

[Kur]

You are a minor. You don't actually have some rights. That is why students can't protest when their school does something they don't like.

If the school rules say you have to stand then you have to stand. You don't have to like it, but you have to do it.

Now if you were 18 you could argue that you can't be forced to stand for the flag.



Besides all that, standing up for the flag is not to show respect for what the leaders of the country are doing now, it is to show respect for the country itself. To show pride in the principles behind the country, even if you don't think the country is following them currently.

 

[Amide]

Besides all that, standing up for the flag is not to show respect for what the leaders of the country are doing now, it is to show respect for the country itself. To show pride in the principles behind the country, even if you don't think the country is following them currently.

That is basically how I feel. You shouldn't be forced, and I'm not proud of my country now really, but overall, the US is a great county. Few other places would you be guaranteed the same rights.

 

[blazedaces]

You are a minor. You don't actually have some rights. That is why students can't protest when their school does something they don't like.

If the school rules say you have to stand then you have to stand. You don't have to like it, but you have to do it.

Now if you were 18 you could argue that you can't be forced to stand for the flag.

It was ruled by the supreme court that you can't do this. This supersedes any school rules.

Besides all that, standing up for the flag is not to show respect for what the leaders of the country are doing now, it is to show respect for the country itself. To show pride in the principles behind the country, even if you don't think the country is following them currently.

Why?! "It just is" is not a good argument!

What if the pledge said all non-americans must die? Would you still recite it?

-blazed

 

[SkylerOcon]

It was ruled by the supreme court that you can't do this. This supersedes any school rules.

Source? I'm not saying that it would be a bad thing if it was, but I'm asking mostly out of curiousity

I don't recite the pledge because I don't believe in making any definite pledge to anything, unless I truly believe that I should pledge my love and loyalty to something.

I stand up because it is curtious to others. Not because I want to avoid conflict. Standing up but not putting your hand over your heart or reciting the pledge is like saying 'I don't agree with it, but I respect your opinion to believe in it'.

Sitting down spits in everybody's faces who chooses to stand up and recitie it.

 

[link6616]

If you asked someone who had never lived with this, it would sound sick to you. I know it sounds sick to me.

-blazed

Quite right, living in Australia with the closest things to this being the minute of silence on the 11/11 at 11 o'clock (which is usually explained to younger classes) and like most (if not all) nations, the national anthem.

I find it hard to believe someone was actually punished for not taking the pledge. However I do agree with SkylerOcon

I stand up because it is curtious to others. Not because I want to avoid conflict. Standing up but not putting your hand over your heart or reciting the pledge is like saying 'I don't agree with it, but I respect your opinion to believe in it'.

Sitting down spits in everybody's faces who chooses to stand up and recitie it.

 

[samdaballer]

You are a minor. You don't actually have some rights.

actually, every citizen has these rights unless otherwise noted, for example, you have the right to bear arms if you have a gun license which is not administered to the age of 18 i believe

 

[blazedaces]

Source? I'm not saying that it would be a bad thing if it was, but I'm asking mostly out of curiousity

Check out either the very first post or the second post. The first post mentions it in the article cited and in the second post of this thread I put a link to a brief history of the pledge of allegiance. In there it's also mentioned.

I don't recite the pledge because I don't believe in making any definite pledge to anything, unless I truly believe that I should pledge my love and loyalty to something.

I stand up because it is curtious to others. Not because I want to avoid conflict. Standing up but not putting your hand over your heart or reciting the pledge is like saying 'I don't agree with it, but I respect your opinion to believe in it'.

Sitting down spits in everybody's faces who chooses to stand up and recitie it.
Today 12:34 AM

However I do agree with SkylerOcon

Give me an argument for why this is true besides "it just is".

Everyone around here seems to have their own definition for "what it means" to stand up or not. Why do you think NO ONE has responded to me when I asked them what's their argument for it? There is none. All of these are simply made up. You're rationalizing, basically (logical fallacy). You assume there MUST be a reason why we say it, so you make one up. But if someone asks you why, you obviously don't have a good answer.

-blazed

 

[marthanoob]

Sitting down spits in everybody's faces who chooses to stand up and recitie it.

No, that is simply saying that you disagree.
What is everyone's problem with disagreement??? It is a natural and healthy part of a democracy.

 

[blazedaces]

Skyler, you should read "The Giver".

-blazed

 

[SkylerOcon]

Skyler, you should read "The Giver".

-blazed

Everybody tells me to read that... I'll pick it up.

But, I agree. There really isn't a reason why we should stand up when other people recite it. I feel that it's rude to others, but if you don't think it is, you can sit down.

This really is more of a personal than a political issue. No one thing can be wrong in this debate, in my opinion.

 

[Kur]

Why?! "It just is" is not a good argument!

What if the pledge said all non-americans must die? Would you still recite it?

-blazed

I didn't say 'it just is' I gave a specific reason.

And the pledge does not say 'all non-americans must die' so what is your point? There is nothing in the pledge that makes you commit to anything other than the principles behind the founding of this country. Well it was that way until the mid 1950 when the phrase 'under god' was added, but other than that, the pledge does not ask you to pledge allegiance to the president, the congress, any war, or anything else other than the flag and 'the republic for which it stands'.

And yes, when I say the pledge I choose to leave out the 'under god' part.


If the pledge said that all non-americans must die, then it wouldn't be our pledge.

 

[marthanoob]

Well it was that way until the mid 1950 when the phrase 'under god' was added, but other than that, the pledge does not ask you to pledge allegiance to the president, the congress, any war, or anything else other than the flag and 'the republic for which it stands'.

What is your interpretation as to the properties associated to a person by the pledge?

EDIT (restatement): What do you think happens to a person when they pledge to the flag and 'the republic for which it stands'?