• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Standardized Ruleset Development Idea

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
I was discussing some things in another thread, and it inspired me to make this post for possible discussion.

Fellow Smashers, let's face it: we've made mistakes with our rulesets over the years. We've banned things that maybe shouldn't have been, and there have been questionable decisions for sure. And it is very difficult to reverse decisions once made even if it is realized later that those decisions were bad.

So, I would like to propose a system to help avoid the pitfalls of the past. A standardized system where things would only be banned if the fit a prebuilt criteria. This would hopefully avoid bans based on disliking something or misconceptions and give us the best ruleset we can manage.

To do this, we would need to do two things.

1. Define things that need to be banned on a broad level. A possible example being "Anything that degrades play to a point where a fair match is no longer possible." Remember, this is an example, there are tons of ideas we would want to put down.

2. Write the criteria. We'd need to to lack loopholes we may use in moments of weakness. It must be hardcore and solid so that it will always hold and be a true standard.

So lets start the discussion, what would this standard be? Write up examples of your own, and we can all build off each other and possibly have a great system to work with. Get at it people!


Note: Please Do Not Let This Thread Devolve Into A Hateful Conversation. This Is Not The Place Either To Debate What The Rules Should Be/Should Have Been. The Point Is To Make A Standard To Compare Anything Sm4sh May Have To Offer Against.




How's about starting with what inspired me to post this thread, their idea:

Yes! That's what we need to do, really. Collectively decide on an edict, and stick to it.

How's this for starters:
A facet of the game should be removed when it is found to nearly always grant a player an significant uncounterable advantage at random.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
You say we have made mistakes with rulesets in the past, yet you haven't provided any examples to make a case.

What do you mean "we." Do you mean we as in the community at large? The BBR/MBR and their rulesets? Individual pockets of the community? This is also important to define because just because someone bans Meta Knight at their local tournament or allows 75 M or items doesn't mean we as a collective made poor decisions.

I would like you to elaborate.
 

Dr. James Rustles

Daxinator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
4,019
Aylas, I know you have good intentions, but this is a pointless exercise. You're suggesting a standardized system for guiding how we ban things. How is this significantly different from a ruleset? How is that any different from competitive sensibilities? Do you really think that there will be fewer mistakes made by setting things in stone for a game we have not even played yet? You barely have any clue what this system might look like, take for example:

"Anything that degrades play to a point where a fair match is no longer possible."
That is abusing the notion of fairness. You are implying that play can be degraded while simultaneously remaining fair.

Please leave ruleset and broken-ness determination to the best players and TO. The best players are the gold standard for whether or not something is broken.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,138
Please leave ruleset a broken-ness determination to the best players and TO. The best players are the gold standard for whether or not something is broken.
The best players are somewhat likely to say anything they can use to their advantage is not broken.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
You say we have made mistakes with rulesets in the past, yet you haven't provided any examples to make a case.

What do you mean "we." Do you mean we as in the community at large? The BBR/MBR and their rulesets? Individual pockets of the community? This is also important to define because just because someone bans Meta Knight at their local tournament or allows 75 M or items doesn't mean we as a collective made poor decisions.

I would like you to elaborate.

I think we all have different opinions on who made mistakes and what the mistakes were, so I'll go with the community as a whole, but try not to cite my personal opinions on what mistakes were made because they are based purely on opinion and I know others might have a differing opinion and these kinds of things are unsolvable as I've discussed in other threads do to no control to compare it too.

However, I will say banning things overall may have been handled poorly at times due to a lack of true data to look at, or not having a standard like this to possibly compare to.

But, what I wanted to attempt to do was make a standard all of us community members work on together so we might not make mistakes again, even though I know this will lead to people still saying things were done wrong, and it's likely to happen on either side of the scale for opinions, but this standard to compare to might get people closer on both sides to creating a standardized ruleset. Having a standard we always adhere to would make the ruleset be/look more ligitimate as well which wouldn't hurt.

Care to comment on this idea, seeing any loopholes or needed additions?

Yes! That's what we need to do, really. Collectively decide on an edict, and stick to it.

How's this for starters:
A facet of the game should be removed when it is found to nearly always grant a player an significant uncounterable advantage at random.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
Aylas, I know you have good intentions, but this is a pointless exercise. You're suggesting a standardized system for guiding how we ban things. How is this significantly different from a ruleset? How is that any different from competitive sensibilities? Do you really think that there will be fewer mistakes made by setting things in stone for a game we have not even played yet? You barely have any clue what this system might look like, take for example:



That is abusing the notion of fairness. You are implying that play can be degraded while simultaneously remaining fair.

Please leave ruleset a broken-ness determination to the best players and TO. The best players are the gold standard for whether or not something is broken.

Also, you just contributed majorly to the discussion. I never said this was perfect, and it wasn't even my personal suggestion, but a starting point that you did a great job of looking at, dissecting, and showing why it doesn't work. More then anything, this is an exercise of grammar, but even though we haven't seen or played the game yet, we can try to create a standard so when we first pick it up, people aren't tossing things out willy nilly.

You've shown my example/talking point isn't effective, why not take a stab at one of your own at least for fun? Pretend maybe you have a smash game that already came out. Look at it like it's brand new and think of what needs banning, then write the standard you personally used to decide this. Not only might it contribute to this discussion, it might be a cool way to reflect on yourself and your thoughts on how smash should be played.

Also, call me Capps. when I named myself for my daughter I didn't think about how everyone would call me by here name. Too late to change now, but might as well try :p
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
The best players are somewhat likely to say anything they can use to their advantage is not broken.

This is not true.

While some players individually might defend a character, tactic, item, stage, etc, for personal gain, the collective group of all the top players won't. Someone is going to highlight it if something is bull****. Even assuming everyone was completely biased and going to defend a character or stage that should be banned, not everyone is going to use them, so not everyone stands to gain. Even in extreme cases like Meta Knight, who is by far the most single used competitive character in Brawl, many players top or otherwise made arguments to have him banned several times.

There are also examples of the complete contrary to what you're saying. Prior to EVO, top players in Injustice were clamouring to have Scorpion banned because they were worried he was going to ruin the tournament scene and people were going to leave.

I think we all have different opinions on who made mistakes and what the mistakes were, so I'll go with the community as a whole, but try not to cite my personal opinions on what mistakes were made because they are based purely on opinion and I know others might have a differing opinion and these kinds of things are unsolvable as I've discussed in other threads do to no control to compare it too.

However, I will say banning things overall may have been handled poorly at times due to a lack of true data to look at, or not having a standard like this to possibly compare to.

But, what I wanted to attempt to do was make a standard all of us community members work on together so we might not make mistakes again, even though I know this will lead to people still saying things were done wrong, and it's likely to happen on either side of the scale for opinions, but this standard to compare to might get people closer on both sides to creating a standardized ruleset. Having a standard we always adhere to would make the ruleset be/look more ligitimate as well which wouldn't hurt.

Care to comment on this idea, seeing any loopholes or needed additions?

How can I cite your personal opinions if you never gave them?

Also, you're trying to make a case for your idea. You need to step in to the light, put yourself in to a vulnerable position, say "this is what I believe", and stick with it. You don't get anywhere by playing safe. The fact that it's your opinion is given, we're already aware.

So again I ask you. You say things were handled poorly at times (with what we've established as with the community at large.) What things were they that you did not agree with.

I think having a standard at which to adhere to is good, but we're not going to make headway if you don't give reasons (preferably with evidence to support those reasons.)
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,138
There are also examples of the complete contrary to what you're saying. Prior to EVO, top players in Injustice were clamouring to have Scorpion banned because they were worried he was going to ruin the tournament scene and people were going to leave.
You would have to demonstrate that Scorpion being unbanned was to their advantage to actually prove it.

If Scorpion being unbanned meant they'd just have to play as Scorpion but had no better chance of winning than playing their normal character (Or worse for them, if they're unused to him) then my point remains completely untouched.

This is mostly based on "Whatever people use themselves they tend to think is fair". Top players are not immune to it.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
I'm not saying they're immune to it. I'm saying that there is more to consider to these players than personal gain by defending a character that should otherwise not be defended.

I can't prove to you that Scorpion being legal would have been favorable to them because he's since been changed (mind you I'm not aware of his current status.) But the majority of top players within the Injustice community agreed that he was either too good or he circumventing the system to a point where you couldn't fight him, and subsequently they pushed to have him banned before EVO. This is enough for me to believe that Scorpion was strong enough as a character to warrant using to win as a competitive player, and thus worth defending from a biased perspective.
 

Dr. James Rustles

Daxinator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
4,019
You would have to demonstrate that Scorpion being unbanned was to their advantage to actually prove it.
The meatball is in your pocket, salaboB. It's your place to prove that most top players argue for aspects of a game strictly to benefit themselves.

This is mostly based on "Whatever people use themselves they tend to think is fair". Top players are not immune to it.
No one said that top players are immune to bias. Additionally, whatever degree your assertion is based on "Whatever people use themselves they tend to think is fair", the rest of it is certainly based on conjecture.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,138
The meatball is in your pocket, salaboB. It's your place to prove that most top players argues for aspects of a game strictly to benefit themselves.
Ask M2K his opinion on MetaKnight being fair?

Then find other top players (Who started out maining MK rather than switching to him because he was dominating) that also feel he's unfair.

Really, I don't have anything to prove though -- people made a mess of Brawl's competitive release by going with conservative rules based on Melee, and the same thing will probably happen with SSB4 regardless of any points made or not made here.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
You need to come to terms with the fact that Brawl was destined to be a mess from the get go, salaboB. It has too many inherent problems regardless of what ruleset you choose to give it.

In fact I would argue that a large portion of the rules currently instated that might be considered questionable or otherwise harmful are to band-aid fix Brawls problems, like banning stages and enforcing rules that would otheriwse benefit Meta Knight.

As far as the rest of the rules, like items, I've already given you my case on that.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
I've said before that we strongly need a universal ruleset, and I've had several conversations about this topic. Here are the basic principles that you absolutely have to have:

1. It has to be universal. This is the most important thing of all. It's kinda a joke that going region to region or sometimes even event to event within a region that you're literally playing a different game (if the rules aren't the same, it's a different game). I can't stress enough how much it would help smash and this community to have one single ruleset used at every single event at least in the US/Canada/Australia/Europe (I don't think we can realistically expect Japan to be involved). Honestly no matter which rules we did use, any universal ruleset would be better than divided rules.

2. It must represent the will of the people. This is tricky; we tend to be collectively dominated by vocal minorities, and those minorities over time sway the more indifferent masses to some extent but also create a fairly alienating effect (this is a big part of the culture shock "casuals" feel when they're introduced to us). The reason the will of the people matters though is that in the long run the conclusion the majority would reach if they were properly informed will be the ruleset that will have the greatest potential for growth in the community, and we have a big interest in growth.

3. It must be enduring. We can't have moving goalposts. Once we decide if we're going to ban something or not, it needs to stay that way. That means, for practical purposes, we only make a stagelist once, and then we use that stagelist forever unless something truly earth shattering is discovered that forces us to re-evaluate the game as a whole. Not only is a consistent game important to players seeking to master it, but if we can all agree that the rules aren't changing, we can collectively just not worry about fighting over them and instead focus on everything else. The effort we save over the years fighting over rules could allow us to accomplish great things.

4. It must be inclusive. This is true of both the contents of the rules and your method of making them. The more people are involved and the more open the process, the more legitimacy your ruleset will have. Saying "leave it to top players and TOs" is a very bad idea; making the rule process removed from the masses results in people feeling no real connection with the end product, and even more, there's no guarantee at all of better results (unless you consider what we ended up with for Brawl an ideal result). It's also a simple fact that the rules affect us all as a community. That fact alone means that everyone deserves a voice. Also, to be very honest here, someone being a top player doesn't necessarily give them special insight. A lot of times what makes a top player top is very strong on their feet intuition and subconscious knowledge of how to deal with situations. Those kinds of things serve them very well behind a controller, but behind a keyboard making policy it doesn't really translate. They should still be listened to, but the gold standard in policy is logic, not status. No matter who is making any argument, the contents of the argument and not the name behind it should be what win the day, and being more inclusive of everyone will, if guided properly, allow for the marketplace of ideas that will favor that kind of work. This will be a very hard needle for us to thread as a community (uninformed mob rule is even worse than being non-inclusive), but it's worth giving our best possible effort.

I would suggest that a few specific ideas may serve us well as principles any of you as individuals may find useful to pursue in the inevitable debates:

1. No character is getting banned unconditionally. Let's just save the debate and make it unconditional. If any character is so good to break the game, the game will be broken. MK was handled as poorly as possible; we need to avoid doing that again. I feel reasonably confident that no character in smash 4 will be as good as MK was relative to the rest of the cast. Surely Sakurai knows the problems MK causes so many players, not just us either. If we can just accept with confidence the legitimacy of the whole cast, it will save us a headache.

2. No starter-counterpick dichotomy. This is just a bad idea. In terms of "fairness" from the start, it doesn't make sense. We ban stages that have some features that, for whatever reason, make them either degenerate or fundamentally unfair in a competitive sense. If a stage lacks those issues and is okay to be legal, why should it only be part-way legal? The way most people interpret it is that the counterpick stages are only "kinda" fair and that it doesn't make sense to play on "kinda" fair stages when you have "really" fair stages as well.

As a practical matter from a player's perspective, practicing counterpick stages is a waste of time. Game one will not be on one, and you can counterpick a starter yourself. That means that, if you can win on starters, you can win the set. That means it's smartest to play friendlies only on starters for most players. The single biggest predictor of when a player will favor banning a stage is when he's unfamiliar with it, and it makes sense. Most players are pursuing the "starter" strategy, but those guys who pick the oddball counterpicks and win big not only get annoying but when one player knows the stage very well and the other doesn't, the games sure don't seem to look fair.

What you need is a culture in which it's smartest for players to practice on every legal stage equally. The only way that is going to happen is if every stage that is legal is equally legal. There are ways to make rulesets that could allow for very large stage lists (20+) with all stages being fully legal for game one; there's no true practical roadblock. This also saves us from the "community as designer" problem in that we aren't deciding which stages get special treatment out of our legal set and therefore which types of gameplay we're going to reward. The only decision we have to make for any stage is whether it's objectively both fair and non-degenerate.

3. Items are not a battle worth fighting unless something huge changes. Let's just be straight about it. Items really suck in all current smash games. They aren't strictly unfair or strictly non-competitive. They pretty clearly make the games worse, and at the very least some items have to be banned. This puts us in an awkward situation if we try to allow them. Stages are hard enough of a battle; item lists are an even more complicated issue with a far bigger case of making the community into game designers that in no way prevent the stage issue so you're more than doubling your burden. Getting a community consensus on a fair particular item list would be nearly impossible (and all the casuals you hope to draw with your item ruleset will still be unhappy because of whichever particular items you banned), and it doesn't seem worth it at all because what do you get for it? You get a game that uses some items and is probably a somewhat worse but still playable game than the itemless one. Items make the game more swingy than it would be without them, items make all the characters a bit more generic, and this is purely personal but items just make it less fun to play. When you further consider that for so many here the idea of turning them on is sacrilege, I'm not really seeing it as a good idea to pursue them unless there's some sort of huge change in the game that makes items way, way more attractive than they are in the current games. It seems to me like it's a good way for people with good ideas and intentions to waste their efforts that could have made a real difference in other areas. If that sounds harsh, I'm sorry, but I think that's just being real about the situation as it stands. I don't think you guys are truly wrong in what you say about items, but I just don't believe you can win and am somewhat unsure if it would be a huge good if you did.

4. Day one we should ban two types of stages. We ban stages that can be easily demonstrated to enable infinite run-away (the "loop" stages, both hard loops like Temple and soft loops like Hanenbow). We also ban the stages that are overwhelmingly random to the point that we know they're going to degenerate the game (WarioWare is the classic case). Within a few weeks, we'll see probably several more stages that are not really "fair" in the sense that they are swingy, enable gimmicky and somewhat degenerate gameplay, and introduce huge character biases (your Flat Zone style stages) though we might find a few others that can be proven broken using stuff that's not obvious on day one. This second group of stages should be the only stages we're really looking to remove going forward, and I don't think it will be very deep into the game's lifespan before we can make reasonable decisions on them (about a month in, two tops really). There will undoubtedly be gray area here no matter what very rigid criteria we try to define, and of course this is where will of the people comes in, but I at the very least would lean toward being charitable toward stages and having faith that players will be able to adapt and overcome a stage good enough to have substantial defenders.

I could say a lot more about the topic, but this is already way too long. It's a very difficult issue and one of the most important ones we'll face in the early days of smash 4. The particulars of what we're going to do are obviously only going to be known once we have the game in our hands, but the kind of approach we should take is definitely something we can discuss now.
 

BADGRAPHICS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
893
Location
Galbadia Hotel
3DS FC
2406-5113-4228
Me again, eh? I seem to say a lot.

Since I'm getting quoted, I should probably say something.

The Smash community doesn't have any kind of official moderating board that decides the rules. For this reason, any attempt to do so has to be agreed upon by the majority, because at the end of the day, people are just going to run tournaments the way they want to.

The best way to standardise Smash tournaments is to come up with ruleset varients, test them, and code them like "SWF No-Item Standard", and use these when setting tournaments up. That way, people know exactly what they're getting into.

A variety of agreed-upon rulesets is better than one argued-about ruleset.
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,648
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
.

The Smash community doesn't have any kind of official moderating board that decides the rules.
I actually thought that was the whole point of the Backroom. An official moderate board where only people with actual experience at the game or at organizing tournaments can participate with the purpose of deciding rules.
 

BADGRAPHICS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
893
Location
Galbadia Hotel
3DS FC
2406-5113-4228
I actually thought that was the whole point of the Backroom. An official moderate board where only people with actual experience at the game or at organizing tournaments can participate with the purpose of deciding rules.

By "official", I mean enforced and regulated, in the same way that pro sports have rules. Sorry, bad choice of words.

For instance, you could say "We're playing football with 20 players on each team", but nobody will be interested. With Smash Bros., that kind of "DIY tournament" thing happens a lot, because loads of people want to be able to play the game how they want to play it.

So, in case you really wanted to run a Coin Battle tournament, for whatever crazy reason, SWF should have a standard ruleset to cover it.
 

Lemonwater

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
664
This is very hard since it is hard to determine what might become broken or unviable in the very early stages of metagame development. You do not want to standardize moves so much that the characters feel too similar....that is not Smashlike at all. But at the same time you do not want obviously broken stuff like MK. Seriously, when I first played MK when Brawl was released I could already tell he was too good, no idea how the dev team did not catch that. Anyway, it is hard to establish guidelines for standardizing moves. If possible at all.

I still think patching as time goes by is the best way to balance the game. It will be impossible to make a perfectly balanced game of this nature in one release.
 

lordvaati

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
3,148
Location
Seattle, WA
Switch FC
SW-4918-2392-4599
You say we have made mistakes with rulesets in the past, yet you haven't provided any examples to make a case.

What do you mean "we." Do you mean we as in the community at large? The BBR/MBR and their rulesets? Individual pockets of the community? This is also important to define because just because someone bans Meta Knight at their local tournament or allows 75 M or items doesn't mean we as a collective made poor decisions.

I would like you to elaborate.
well there's Wobbling for one. never officially banned, people still banned it anyway, and when EVO decided to make it legal people were questioning why it was allowed even though it was never officially banned.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
How can I cite your personal opinions if you never gave them?

Also, you're trying to make a case for your idea. You need to step in to the light, put yourself in to a vulnerable position, say "this is what I believe", and stick with it. You don't get anywhere by playing safe. The fact that it's your opinion is given, we're already aware.

So again I ask you. You say things were handled poorly at times (with what we've established as with the community at large.) What things were they that you did not agree with.

I think having a standard at which to adhere to is good, but we're not going to make headway if you don't give reasons (preferably with evidence to support those reasons.)
Alright, I was hoping by remaining neutral and trying to just avoid and ignore whatever biases I had I might be able to contribute to the discussion better, but as it seems that may not be so I can try to draw a picture.

I not only have some opinions from here, but from PSAS too from running it (despite the horrible community, it was a good learning ground). I do think we may have gone too conservative in the making of Brawl's ruleset. I do really think sometimes a community has a knee jerk reaction and yells BAN!!! without making really sure something is truly a problem first. PSASBR definitely had this issue, a DLC character Kat came out, and her insane OPness made meta knight look like Gannon in brawl. Seriously, she was insane. BUT it was less then a few hours in that people cried for her ban. And soon after she was banned. Sadly though, some people looked like they had found ways to beat her later on, but the game is far too dead to ever know now. If people would have waited and actually done some playing against her, she might not have needed banning in the first place. And I worry we do things like this even if a bit slower, without true data to look at. (Fortunately projects like SSWT are working on a system to get way more data in a good way, so maybe we can avoid that in the future.) I wanted to be sure we had a true standard to adhere to so that those who would knee jerk or those who do just whine because they don't like something would have to wait and be sure we could truly prove things had a problem first before banning them.

I will also say, I think the "do it how we always have" mentality is with a lot of the community. I do understand why there are advantages to keeping rules similar from game to game when you can, but despite several arguments made over the years no one has ever been brave enough to try something other then a starter/cp system (that has its flaws) to maybe find that another system is better. At least we did that in PSAS for a while (Ended on an LSS system before I left which was well loved, but some were too lazy/stuck in thier ways to learn.)

Smash is a unique game, and while we can customize I do think we at times take out too much of what makes it unique. Everyone has a different idea for a stagelist, but they could be broadened and made more fair with other systems which I personally would like to see, but that takes not banning things too soon to do so.

(Here's a stage that was instabanned day 1 in PSAS, we eventually went to test it a lot more and found it seriously should be legal ad was a phenomenal stage at times. I wish we had kept it from the beginning but alas, knee jerks happened. I mean look at it, would you have kept it legal without a system in place?)

(It looks like 75m. Not that I'm saying 75m should be legal, it shouldn't. But that kinda reasoning got it banned when it shouldn't have been.)
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
Ask M2K his opinion on MetaKnight being fair?

Then find other top players (Who started out maining MK rather than switching to him because he was dominating) that also feel he's unfair.

Really, I don't have anything to prove though -- people made a mess of Brawl's competitive release by going with conservative rules based on Melee, and the same thing will probably happen with SSB4 regardless of any points made or not made here.
The last part I really disagree with, there's going to be a new wave of fresh players coming with new ideas, I just hope we can embrace that and make something amazing out of this unique smash game.

You need to come to terms with the fact that Brawl was destined to be a mess from the get go, salaboB. It has too many inherent problems regardless of what ruleset you choose to give it.

In fact I would argue that a large portion of the rules currently instated that might be considered questionable or otherwise harmful are to band-aid fix Brawls problems, like banning stages and enforcing rules that would otheriwse benefit Meta Knight.

As far as the rest of the rules, like items, I've already given you my case on that.
Since MK was mentioned, having a standard of what constitutes banning would have made those arguments cut and dry. Personally, I think a lot of Brawl's ruleset and stagelists were ruined by keeping Meta Knight in competitive play when there was so many things that had to be done just for him. But this is again, an opinion and I could very well be wrong.
\ardise Smash tournaments is to come up with ruleset varients, test them, and code them like "SWF No-Item Standard", and use these when setting tournaments up. That way, people know exactly what they're getting into.

A variety of agreed-upon rulesets is better than one argued-about ruleset.
I actually thought that was the whole point of the Backroom. An official moderate board where only people with actual experience at the game or at organizing tournaments can participate with the purpose of deciding rules.
By "official", I mean enforced and regulated, in the same way that pro sports have rules. Sorry, bad choice of words.

For instance, you could say "We're playing football with 20 players on each team", but nobody will be interested. With Smash Bros., that kind of "DIY tournament" thing happens a lot, because loads of people want to be able to play the game how they want to play it.

So, in case you really wanted to run a Coin Battle tournament, for whatever crazy reason, SWF should have a standard ruleset to cover it.
That little conversation, I wanted to respond to the entirety. Yes, a standard for any basic mode people would want to run is a great idea. There's no reason if someone wants a tournament with some items on that we should stop them. Why can't people just have these side by side instead of going out of their way to insult the other side, or force one to be a "side event"? Can't we have side by side events? Two equals?

Also, I know the backroom has done good things, but I think everyone has seen the people who absolutely hate it as well. There is some truth to them needing to be more transparent and to try and include the community as a whole more. When the power of the community is given to a select few who they themselves really don't get to choose, how is that fair? If we can, we need to include the masses so that everyone can be represented. If we have to, have so many seats in the backroom (an odd number) then vote, have debate even if you want like an ellection. It may not be the best idea, but at least it's something so that players can feel and be better represented.

(Sorry for the double post, but I figured since these conversations contained such different points that I didn't want to mash them all together.)
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,138
The last part I really disagree with, there's going to be a new wave of fresh players coming with new ideas, I just hope we can embrace that and make something amazing out of this unique smash game.
That was my cynicism talking, I'm with you on the hopes :)

It gets disheartening to see people already arguing that things should stay as they've always been (No items, stage bans, starter/counterpick) before we've even seen the game. And as you say, there's a lot that makes Smash unique -- but this includes things such as items. Smash without items is just pushing it closer to other fighters, which makes me want to ask, "Why not go play one of them instead if you don't want to explore everything that makes Smash unique?"

The other interesting thing I saw was the comment that items tend to generic-ize the characters -- listed as a bad thing. But what it does is helps fill in the weaknesses certain characters have, without destroying the basic flavor of the character. That should result in increased character viability, which means better balance (If balance is defined as number of viable characters for tournament play) I'd say that's a good enough reason to test sane ways to allow items. Obviously, if the rules that have to be used to allow them are too complex there's a problem, but that's not a reason to not try it in the first place and see.

If we have to, have so many seats in the backroom (an odd number) then vote, have debate even if you want like an ellection. It may not be the best idea, but at least it's something so that players can feel and be better represented.
Anything like this runs into serious issues with players staying active. It's hard enough to keep activity when people can earn money (Such as tournament participation in online games) let alone when it's just volunteering.

More transparency on the BR discussions that are directly related to tournament rules might be adequate -- if nothing else, someone gathering together a summary page of reasoning and presenting it for discussion with the community at large. That way only one person would be required to collate and moderate it, which is very realistic.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
That was my cynicism talking, I'm with you on the hopes :)

It gets disheartening to see people already arguing that things should stay as they've always been (No items, stage bans, starter/counterpick) before we've even seen the game. And as you say, there's a lot that makes Smash unique -- but this includes things such as items. Smash without items is just pushing it closer to other fighters, which makes me want to ask, "Why not go play one of them instead if you don't want to explore everything that makes Smash unique?"

The other interesting thing I saw was the comment that items tend to generic-ize the characters -- listed as a bad thing. But what it does is helps fill in the weaknesses certain characters have, without destroying the basic flavor of the character. That should result in increased character viability, which means better balance (If balance is defined as number of viable characters for tournament play) I'd say that's a good enough reason to test sane ways to allow items. Obviously, if the rules that have to be used to allow them are too complex there's a problem, but that's not a reason to not try it in the first place and see.


Anything like this runs into serious issues with players staying active. It's hard enough to keep activity when people can earn money (Such as tournament participation in online games) let alone when it's just volunteering.

More transparency on the BR discussions that are directly related to tournament rules might be adequate -- if nothing else, someone gathering together a summary page of reasoning and presenting it for discussion with the community at large. That way only one person would be required to collate and moderate it, which is very realistic.

I don't want this to devolve into an items vs no items thread, but I do agree it would be good to at least give them a look so people could run items events side by side with non items events at a bare minimum without each side hating on each other instead of the side event mentality where one is considered unworthy of the other. There has been good testing about having certain items on that provided consistent results, along with the possibility of them allowing more stages to be legal which I think people would enjoy. But I don't think one or the other should be the required all the time ruleset. That just makes both sides unhappy in an endless argument.

It might be time with the backroom to flush out all the members and do a re-vote in or something. It would also be nice to have a list of all the members and their merits for being allowed in maybe at a bare minimum. I think for a lot of people the backroom is a place filled with secrets so they don't trust it as much, something should be done to rectify that.
 

Zonderion

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
903
Location
Helena, Alabama
NNID
Zonderion
I think this is a great idea. However, as others have mentioned, it has to be done right, or at least set up correctly. From what I gather, this thread isn't about setting rulesets, bans but rather the procedure into how to develop those types. So, the argument that the game isn't out yet isn't viable as the discussion is about the method of how rulesets come into play.

Also, Crapps (Alyas), you mentioned the project about SSWT. While I don't think their intention is to organize tournaments, but merely an enabler for the TOs that need it, I think SSWT could take that on. Ultimately, we want to see all of the Smash community unite in the tournament world. SSWT is where it will be at. Everyone will be on the same page as far as the data that will be collected & ranked and they could even communicate the rulesets that are developed here on Smash Boards.

How easy would it be to be able to find tournaments by ruleset? If I wanted to play in a 1v1 All Items tournament, not only would there be a comprehensive ruleset, but I could search for tournaments that feature that ruleset.

All in all, I think this is a good idea.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
I think this is a great idea. However, as others have mentioned, it has to be done right, or at least set up correctly. From what I gather, this thread isn't about setting rulesets, bans but rather the procedure into how to develop those types. So, the argument that the game isn't out yet isn't viable as the discussion is about the method of how rulesets come into play.

Also, Crapps (Alyas), you mentioned the project about SSWT. While I don't think their intention is to organize tournaments, but merely an enabler for the TOs that need it, I think SSWT could take that on. Ultimately, we want to see all of the Smash community unite in the tournament world. SSWT is where it will be at. Everyone will be on the same page as far as the data that will be collected & ranked and they could even communicate the rulesets that are developed here on Smash Boards.

How easy would it be to be able to find tournaments by ruleset? If I wanted to play in a 1v1 All Items tournament, not only would there be a comprehensive ruleset, but I could search for tournaments that feature that ruleset.

All in all, I think this is a good idea.

Crapps.... XD
Best.
Typo.
Ever.

I mentioned SSWT more to mention that they want to tackle getting and keeping data better, whether they will lead the future in rulesets, who knows? But the data they keep will be amazing for making these decisions either. A search system to find the kinds of events you like would be seriously awesome. I've been discussing a bit with SSWT about helping out and that was in my suggestions. If MTG can show evens so well with the WPN/DCI system, smash can!

But what you said first is what I really liked. It's about how we go about making rulesets, not about what is in the game as we don't know.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
By "official", I mean enforced and regulated, in the same way that pro sports have rules. Sorry, bad choice of words.

For instance, you could say "We're playing football with 20 players on each team", but nobody will be interested. With Smash Bros., that kind of "DIY tournament" thing happens a lot, because loads of people want to be able to play the game how they want to play it.

So, in case you really wanted to run a Coin Battle tournament, for whatever crazy reason, SWF should have a standard ruleset to cover it.

There is still a guiding force at work that helps to dictate what is and isn't acceptable in competitive Smash. That is the back room for each game. It may not be enforced, but it is respected and accepted by the majority. It's the exact same phenomenon that happens with competitive Pokemon and Smogon; their tierlists dictate the flow of all the other competitive online and offline standard battles, even if the option to deviate from these rules is there.

well there's Wobbling for one. never officially banned, people still banned it anyway, and when EVO decided to make it legal people were questioning why it was allowed even though it was never officially banned.

You do have a point here, though people on the majority were for wobbling being legal for EVO 2013. However in his case, I was asking for cases supplied by Brawl, and more so pertaining to items and stages.
Alright, I was hoping by remaining neutral and trying to just avoid and ignore whatever biases I had I might be able to contribute to the discussion better, but as it seems that may not be so I can try to draw a picture.

I not only have some opinions from here, but from PSAS too from running it (despite the horrible community, it was a good learning ground). I do think we may have gone too conservative in the making of Brawl's ruleset. I do really think sometimes a community has a knee jerk reaction and yells BAN!!! without making really sure something is truly a problem first. PSASBR definitely had this issue, a DLC character Kat came out, and her insane OPness made meta knight look like Gannon in brawl. Seriously, she was insane. BUT it was less then a few hours in that people cried for her ban. And soon after she was banned. Sadly though, some people looked like they had found ways to beat her later on, but the game is far too dead to ever know now. If people would have waited and actually done some playing against her, she might not have needed banning in the first place. And I worry we do things like this even if a bit slower, without true data to look at. (Fortunately projects like SSWT are working on a system to get way more data in a good way, so maybe we can avoid that in the future.) I wanted to be sure we had a true standard to adhere to so that those who would knee jerk or those who do just whine because they don't like something would have to wait and be sure we could truly prove things had a problem first before banning them.

I will also say, I think the "do it how we always have" mentality is with a lot of the community. I do understand why there are advantages to keeping rules similar from game to game when you can, but despite several arguments made over the years no one has ever been brave enough to try something other then a starter/cp system (that has its flaws) to maybe find that another system is better. At least we did that in PSAS for a while (Ended on an LSS system before I left which was well loved, but some were too lazy/stuck in thier ways to learn.)

Smash is a unique game, and while we can customize I do think we at times take out too much of what makes it unique. Everyone has a different idea for a stagelist, but they could be broadened and made more fair with other systems which I personally would like to see, but that takes not banning things too soon to do so.

(Here's a stage that was instabanned day 1 in PSAS, we eventually went to test it a lot more and found it seriously should be legal ad was a phenomenal stage at times. I wish we had kept it from the beginning but alas, knee jerks happened. I mean look at it, would you have kept it legal without a system in place?)

(It looks like 75m. Not that I'm saying 75m should be legal, it shouldn't. But that kinda reasoning got it banned when it shouldn't have been.)
Here's the problem. The rulesets that are passed on via tradition were originally instilled because it is what worked at the time. In order to instill change, a probable cause needs to be used in order to change the mindsets of those you are looking to effect. The problem here with a lot of proposed changes to the current rulesets is that they don't have strong, sound arguments behind them. Or at least no one is capable of making them as such. If you can't iterate why a change of pace or a new set of rules would benefit the game more so than the way the current system works, change won't happen.

And I'm sorry to make some people heart broken in here and possibility point fingers, but the majority of arguments and propositions for item, free for all, and stage ruleset changes lately that I've seen are pretty bad, at best resulting in a 'agree to disagree' situation (usually revolving around denial of being incorrect, and not a legitimate standoff.) That's not good enough to change peoples minds. You need to convince them.

Since MK was mentioned, having a standard of what constitutes banning would have made those arguments cut and dry. Personally, I think a lot of Brawl's ruleset and stagelists were ruined by keeping Meta Knight in competitive play when there was so many things that had to be done just for him. But this is again, an opinion and I could very well be wrong.

I think what a lot of this has to do with is that as far as the fighting game community as a whole is concerned, the general consensus is that you don't ban a character unless they're a broken one, meaning that they are dominating factor to a point in which skill cannot compensate for what they do in game, and you are forced to use them in order to win competitively. Melee in particular had a very tight following with the other fighting game communities because it had to in order to maintain respect at events like MLG and EVO. When Brawl came around and a lot of the older veterans realized the games problems very early on (read up on Gimpyfish and his posts/articles/blogs if you want an example of this) and they left, and we had a huge influx of newer casual players coming to a competitive site like Smashboards who wanted to take initiative and pioneer the forum fronteer, we were met with a huge deficit of experienced, knowledgeable, mature decision making by players that just knew better. Suddenly we had a uninformed majority making cases for banning a character when they themselves didn't understand the game well enough to give an appropriate opinion, sometimes with these players not even attending tournaments. With a vocal following this loud on the forums, it eventually gained steam and set the precedent that a character could be banned on the basis that he was 'really good', or 'makes other characters low tier' or 'he's the best character in the game.'

In short, it became a cluster ****.

It gets disheartening to see people already arguing that things should stay as they've always been (No items, stage bans, starter/counterpick) before we've even seen the game. And as you say, there's a lot that makes Smash unique -- but this includes things such as items. Smash without items is just pushing it closer to other fighters, which makes me want to ask, "Why not go play one of them instead if you don't want to explore everything that makes Smash unique?"
Because Smash is incredibly unique without items. The items don't make it different from other fighters. The items are a distractive quality that deviate from the experience it has to offer as a unique fighter in the first place. That's besides all the other problems items have that you seem to ignore.

People love Smash. We had around 140,000 viewers on EVO watching competitive Smash. How many of those viewers do you think thought they were losing out on the full experience because they didn't have items turned on during that stream? Not very many.

The other interesting thing I saw was the comment that items tend to generic-ize the characters -- listed as a bad thing. But what it does is helps fill in the weaknesses certain characters have, without destroying the basic flavor of the character. That should result in increased character viability, which means better balance (If balance is defined as number of viable characters for tournament play) I'd say that's a good enough reason to test sane ways to allow items. Obviously, if the rules that have to be used to allow them are too complex there's a problem, but that's not a reason to not try it in the first place and see.
You have absolutely no proof of this. This is a blanket statement you're trying to run with as a merit to having items on. And to add to this, you're not even considering that the items might make the balance problem worse, which others have pointed out several times. I haven't seen you address those either.

I agree more transparency from the back rooms would be nice, though they do make attempts to provide discussion threads and posts involved in their decision making.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
Here's the problem. The rulesets that are passed on via tradition were originally instilled because it is what worked at the time. In order to instill change, a probable cause needs to be used in order to change the mindsets of those you are looking to effect. The problem here with a lot of proposed changes to the current rulesets is that they don't have strong, sound arguments behind them. Or at least no one is capable of making them as such. If you can't iterate why a change of pace or a new set of rules would benefit the game more so than the way the current system works, change won't happen.

And I'm sorry to make some people heart broken in here and possibility point fingers, but the majority of arguments and propositions for item, free for all, and stage ruleset changes lately that I've seen are pretty bad, at best resulting in a 'agree to disagree' situation (usually revolving around denial of being incorrect, and not a legitimate standoff.) That's not good enough to change peoples minds. You need to convince them.
I'd love to convince people, but it's not that easy. Not everyone, but a lot of people are so stuck in their ways and refuse to listen to anything different. Those people wouldn't care even if perfect truths were thrown at them, though I might try. I've read through hundreds of pages of ruleset discussions where all that happened was the person suggesting change was called an idiot no matter how sound some ideas were.

I got the idea to do LSS for PSAS because someone on smash boards suggested the idea and argued so well for it I thought it deserved a shot and it was far more loved and fair then any starter/cp system I had tried. perhaps I need to dig up that thread somehow again and chat about it, though this thread might not be the place. Though it might be too, hell looks like I have searching to do. Though I do agree with you, most people arguing about changes nowadays haven't made good concise points. Sadly people who used to probably left this place.


I think what a lot of this has to do with is that as far as the fighting game community as a whole is concerned, the general consensus is that you don't ban a character unless they're a broken one, meaning that they are dominating factor to a point in which skill cannot compensate for what they do in game, and you are forced to use them in order to win competitively. Melee in particular had a very tight following with the other fighting game communities because it had to in order to maintain respect at events like MLG and EVO. When Brawl came around and a lot of the older veterans realized the games problems very early on (read up on Gimpyfish and his posts/articles/blogs if you want an example of this) and they left, and we had a huge influx of newer casual players coming to a competitive site like Smashboards who wanted to take initiative and pioneer the forum fronteer, we were met with a huge deficit of experienced, knowledgeable, mature decision making by players that just knew better. Suddenly we had a uninformed majority making cases for banning a character when they themselves didn't understand the game well enough to give an appropriate opinion, sometimes with these players not even attending tournaments. With a vocal following this loud on the forums, it eventually gained steam and set the precedent that a character could be banned on the basis that he was 'really good', or 'makes other characters low tier' or 'he's the best character in the game.'

In short, it became a cluster ****.

I can't say I don't agree. In the end MK was a serious disaster. I can only hope we just don't face an issue like this again.
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,648
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
I've read through hundreds of pages of ruleset discussions where all that happened was the person suggesting change was called an idiot no matter how sound some ideas.
My theory is that it is because most of those threads and ideas generally start by stating that the community as a whole is guilty of following the desires of top players like mindless sheep, claiming people don't actually look into data before making decisions.

Accusations normally lead to angering the other side and so no discussion would ever arise from that situation.

I feel that you also recognized this and that is why you tried to be very vague and remain as neutral as possible in your OP.

In my opinion, if we want to get a real discussion out of this no previous game should be mentioned under a bad light, no examples should be given. Basically you need to have a very convincing argument that in no way offends any of the previous installments. Doing this will get you the attention you deserve.

Saying previous game communities did something wrong, even if it is a statement based on opinion and even if you have accurate data to back up your claim, it will only serve to anger the masses and make your argument go by ignored.

Anyways I still believe that there are certain guidelines used to set forth rules, only that people who are not part of the BR are not as aware of these rules.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
My theory is that it is because most of those threads and ideas generally start by stating that the community as a whole is guilty of following the desires of top players like mindless sheep, claiming people don't actually look into data before making decisions.

Accusations normally lead to angering the other side and so no discussion would ever arise from that situation.

I feel that you also recognized this and that is why you tried to be very vague and remain as neutral as possible in your OP.

In my opinion, if we want to get a real discussion out of this no previous game should be mentioned under a bad light, no examples should be given. Basically you need to have a very convincing argument that in no way offends any of the previous installments. Doing this will get you the attention you deserve.

Saying previous game communities did something wrong, even if it is a statement based on opinion and even if you have accurate data to back up your claim, it will only serve to anger the masses and make your argument go by ignored.

Anyways I still believe that there are certain guidelines used to set forth rules, only that people who are not part of the BR are not as aware of these rules.

I'd love some Backroom people to enlighten us then. I do at times feel bad for them, I remember the 3.0-3.1 recommended rulesets fiasco... Man people can be terrible.

And thanks for seeing why I didn't want to take sides too much :)
 

Zonderion

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
903
Location
Helena, Alabama
NNID
Zonderion
I agree. I think moving forward, that while we should learn from our past experiences, this new game should be treated as such. Any methods in determining the ruleset should be objective and not based on past rulesets. Someone mentioned it earlier, but we do need to have a set of definitions for which the rulesets should be made by.

For example:
  • Advanced Techniques - What exactly is an advanced technique?
  • Stalling - How long should an action be before it is considered stalling (remember, this is a new game with new speed)
  • Etc...
 

Dr. James Rustles

Daxinator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
4,019
I'd love some Backroom people to enlighten us then.
Good luck, Capps. You might be able to get their brief attention, but it's a Back Room for a reason. These people are more intelligent than your average forum user, so I really doubt you're going to find them getting themselves involved in something as trivial as a glorified constitution for a game that for all practical purposes doesn't exist. You guys are still struggling to construct notions of even smaller elements that seem trivial to an advanced player or TO.

But really, keep going. I will concede that this is more of an exercise for you guys. You need it more than the backroomers. Maybe at the end of the day you will stop thumbing your noses at experience and precedence.
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,648
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
Good luck. You might be able to get their brief attention, but it's a Back Room for a reason. These people are more intelligent than your average forum user, so I really doubt you're going to find them getting themselves involved in something as trivial as a glorified constitution for a game that for all practical purposes doesn't exist.

A Back Room is formed for every game though. So while Smash 4 has no Back Room and addressing any of the previous installments Back Rooms merits no rewards, Aylas can try to contribute enough to the community and be an example of debate and ideology, maybe once the game is released he will be asked to form part of the Back Room.

I do not actually know how the process for selecting players works, so keep in mind it might not work as I have described.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
Good luck, Capps. You might be able to get their brief attention, but it's a Back Room for a reason. These people are more intelligent than your average forum user, so I really doubt you're going to find them getting themselves involved in something as trivial as a glorified constitution for a game that for all practical purposes doesn't exist. You guys are still struggling to construct notions of even smaller elements that seem trivial to an advanced player or TO.

But really, keep going. I will concede that this is more of an exercise for you guys. You need it more than the backroomers. Maybe at the end of the day you will stop thumbing your noses at experience and precedence.

See, these elements I might be constructing that are already in the minds of TOs or advanced players might not be known by the community, or they might not totally agree with them. If the backroom themselves wanted to discuss an idea like this, it could be really nice. A lot of ruleset making is opinion or bias based whether people want to admit they fall prey to this or not, so reevaluating what makes a good competitive ruleset to make sure everyone is on the same page for the next smash game isn't a bad idea.

Since the backroom hasn't probably released something similar to this other then various members (or previous members) talking about what they feel is competitive sometimes, this might be a good idea for the community.

A Back Room is formed for every game though. So while Smash 4 has no Back Room and addressing any of the previous installments Back Rooms merits no rewards, Aylas can try to contribute enough to the community and be an example of debate and ideology, maybe once the game is released he will be asked to form part of the Back Room.

I do not actually know how the process for selecting players works, so keep in mind it might not work as I have described.

If the people there wanted to, it'd be an honor.
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,648
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
At the end of the day, at least in my opinion, the Back Room is there and is handled like it is for an specific reason.

As you have seen, many people start flame wars for no reason. Most people allow anger and bias to lead their discussion and thus when stating arguments they just let all that hatred or bias pour out, making posts with no factual base.

I believe the Back Room is like it is in order to avoid that. It is exclusively reserved to those that demonstrate a higher understanding of the game mechanics and those that can argue and debate in an organized fashion, keeping bias at a minimum. This is why I the Back Room is set how it is, they aren't just a bunch of elitists who get giggles out of excluding the community.

The reason for the secrecy is that if everything was just open for debate with any person in the community, posts would inevitably become what we have seen them become, just people slurring insults at each other and saying how their opinion is better than the other's.

I understand that this secrecy does create a sense of unease and skepticism. All I say is that I myself find it is ok to debate whether a decision made on a ruleset is correct or is incorrect or whether it was handled correctly or not, but I don't think is it correct to believe that the systems set forth by those with more seniority, knowledge and organization is wrong or biased, specially when we don't even know exactly how it is done.

Trust. It is a heavy word, but the only one I can actually come up with.
 

BADGRAPHICS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
893
Location
Galbadia Hotel
3DS FC
2406-5113-4228
Good luck, Capps. You might be able to get their brief attention, but it's a Back Room for a reason. These people are more intelligent than your average forum user, so I really doubt you're going to find them getting themselves involved in something as trivial as a glorified constitution for a game that for all practical purposes doesn't exist. You guys are still struggling to construct notions of even smaller elements that seem trivial to an advanced player or TO.

But really, keep going. I will concede that this is more of an exercise for you guys. You need it more than the backroomers. Maybe at the end of the day you will stop thumbing your noses at experience and precedence.

I'm not going to concede that any of the backroomers are more intelligent than I am until I actually have a conversation with them, so I'll keep on making my cases as long as I feel I have them.

As far as experience and precedence is concerned, I didn't consider it put to good use when Brawl came out, but this is an already played-out argument, so I won't bore you with the details.

The crux of the matter is that a lot of guys on these boards don't want Smash 4 to fall into the old routine, because they (and I include myself in this) think the routine could do with a fresh look, and those with a lot of experience tend to be all out of fresh looks. Until I see the guys behind the curtain step out and tell me what want to hear, I'll continue to discuss the future of a series that I love.

If you're happy to leave the fate of the community in the hands of a chosen elite, then that's your prerogative, but I'm not sure you should consider yourself entitled to enter the threads of those who disagree only to dole out eloquent condescension. There are interesting ideas here, and even if it is ultimately a mere "exercise", that has yet to be determined.
 

Dr. James Rustles

Daxinator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
4,019
I'm not going to concede that any of the backroomers are more intelligent than I am until I actually have a conversation with them.
Amazing. Good for you. That has nothing to do with the average backroomer being more intelligent than the average SmashBoards user. Shining light on the standard of the backroom litmus apparently threatens your ego.

I'll keep on making my cases as long as I feel I have them.
Be vigilant if you wish, nobody is stopping you. Just be prepared to continue being refuted.

The crux of the matter is that a lot of guys on these boards don't want Smash 4 to fall into the old routine, because they (and I include myself in this) think the routine could do with a fresh look, and those with a lot of experience tend to be all out of fresh looks.
If you have this attitude, you will never gain the respect of your would-be peers, who have put more effort and productivity into a single event than in the all existential pseudo-competitive plights your ilk brings to Smash. Also, there isn't a single competitive long-time Smasher on these boards who doesn't want the meta and tournament development scene to be healthy. As for the old routine you speak of, I am perplexed. Unless there is a popular new mode available, this "old routine" is the face of competitive smash. It will likely never change. It sticks because it works.

Until I see the guys behind the curtain step out and tell me what want to hear, I'll continue to discuss the future of a series that I love.
Did you not just admit ignorance of these people? Did you not just dismiss them because of their apparent bad decision making? Why do you care if they come out just to say things that please you? I think the most important thing to realize here is that what you like to hear is the bottom line of discussion.

If you're happy to leave the fate of the community in the hands of a chosen elite, then that's your prerogative
Wow, not only are you ignorant of what the backroom is composed of, you don't seem to appreciate the value of good players and good TOs. You don't magically get accepted into the backroom. These good players contribute a valuable opinion because they are the gold standard for determining the potential abuses of things in the game. The TOs have worked over many events with many players, you know, players who actually go to tournaments. The TOs work with feedback and needs from the players. The backrooms evolved from this group of people. Why should anyone else decide what's best for the competitive scene? Why should the opinion of the village idiot be given equal weight to that of Socrates?

There are interesting ideas here, and even if it is ultimately a mere "exercise", that has yet to be determined.
The best this thread could hope to do is try to define what is acceptable in competitive Smash, but if you're not working on a ruleset, then that is really just what is defining what is good competitive sensibilities, and to be honest, after seeing the relative inexperience of you guys, the discussion is bound to turn into a no no no no yes.
 

BADGRAPHICS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
893
Location
Galbadia Hotel
3DS FC
2406-5113-4228
Everything you just said.
I understand, I actually agree with pretty much all of that. The point I'm trying to get across is that the Smash community is comprised of all of us, and all anybody's doing on this thread, or any other for that matter, is putting forward ideas, some of them really interesting.

I'm really not a fan of the apparently necessary picking-apart of rival forum posts, but I should clarify some things:
  • When I say "chosen elite", I mean it quite literally, I'm not trying to be flippant. I'm aware of the contributions these guys have made, and I'm really not attempting to put them down.
  • I would like to point out that at no point did I dismiss the guys doing all the hard work, nor did I accuse them of ignorance. Actually, I chose my words poorly when I said I didn't see experience put to good use for Brawl, and for that I should apologise. Keeping the No-Item standard for Brawl was a safe decision; and I don't think it was a bad decision as that is what most people were comfortable with. I would have preferred a clean-slate, and I'd like to have one for Smash 4. I don't think I'm necessarily right, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a worthwhile viewpoint.
  • If I'm going to earn the respect of any would-be peers (which isn't my goal), I'd rather it be through my opposition of the status quo than the cultivation of it.
I'm actually quite enjoying this debate. Apologies if I seem arrogant; I'm aware punching above my weight in terms of tournament experience.
Back on topic:
Ok, purely for the sake of discussion, and taking caution not to undermine anybody, is it appropriate for there to be an edict for determining what is considered fair, and what is banned in a tournament ruleset? If nothing else, it could limit bickering. Would it help the community if the backroomers used such a guideline, or would the restricted flexibility hinder in the the long run?
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
I agree. I think moving forward, that while we should learn from our past experiences, this new game should be treated as such. Any methods in determining the ruleset should be objective and not based on past rulesets. Someone mentioned it earlier, but we do need to have a set of definitions for which the rulesets should be made by.

For example:
  • Advanced Techniques - What exactly is an advanced technique?
  • Stalling - How long should an action be before it is considered stalling (remember, this is a new game with new speed)
  • Etc...
Advanced techniques or what they are exactly is a broad and somewhat vague topic, as I addressed in the thread I made. But that doesn't really have a barring on rulesets.

Stalling is pretty defined in competitive play as it is. If its with an infinite tactic of some kind that does % damage that can be continued, it's allowed only up to 300% if it isn't banned already. For other forms of stalling, like Peach's wall bomb stall, it's simply just not allowed. These situations are vague, and require a judge or the tournament organize to intervene in individual cases.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Quilt, I'm really curious. I've been away from the scene for a few years so I don't know who a lot of people who are big today are, but have you personally ever been in any of the BRs? I have, and my experiences tell me that you're really overglorifying it. I really don't understand where you're coming from on that, and I'm curious.

I'm not going to go into detail on how things went back there, but I'll just say that everyone should look at what actually happened. The unity ruleset (which was a subset of the BR, far from all of us even) failed. To my knowledge, nothing else the BR did in terms of rulesets ever affected anything past about 2 months when a ruleset would come out (and a handful of TOs would use their rules... for a little bit). Somehow, somewhere along the line, we have to do something different even if your desire to have the elites decide everything were going to be the gold standard for the community. My belief is that it requires broader participation. I still think the backroom and persons of general stature in the community have a big role; that's where leadership comes from. However, leadership of the elite does not and should not preclude the participation of the masses. Socrates carries his bigger voice than the village idiot because the whole village is listening to both of them, and they know who bears logic and who is indeed an idiot.

I could say a lot more here, and was about to include three more paragraphs (I haven't changed deep down over the years; that's for sure!). The main point of them can be summarized in two important points that are linked. The first is that there's so much we don't know. We see inexperienced people saying things about an unknown game. Will those people develop as players and community figures and be important down the line? What will the playerbase of tomorrow think about all this? What will the game be like, and what kinds of ideas will make sense in it? We really don't know, but what we do know shows that while there are particulars plenty worth disagreeing with, the general theme of what a lot of them are saying in "liberalize the ruleset" is likely a good idea. The second is that this whole forum arguing game is a patient one. Honestly, nothing we say now really matters too much; the real politics that determine our collective future will begin when release is a bit more eminent (probably 2-3 months before). Right now most of us are feeling out positions, trying to make impressions on potential future allies, and building up our reputations in this seed from which we'll eventually see the community for a new game grow. When you look at this topic not as a huge consequential thing that will determine the future itself so much as a chance for some of these guys to cut their teeth on policy debate while some of the rest of us just keep sharp with low stakes, a lot of it makes a lot more sense.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
Back on topic:
Ok, purely for the sake of discussion, and taking caution not to undermine anybody, is it appropriate for there to be an edict for determining what is considered fair, and what is banned in a tournament ruleset? If nothing else, it could limit bickering. Would it help the community if the backroomers used such a guideline, or would the restricted flexibility hinder in the the long run?

Let's definitely talk about this. While a little flexibility is good, too much can lead to loopholes and bans that maybe should never happen.

Perhaps, finding a true definition for what is competitive would be decided on first so that when creating this edict we are all on the same page?

If you have this attitude, you will never gain the respect of your would-be peers, who have put more effort and productivity into a single event than in the all existential pseudo-competitive plights your ilk brings to Smash. Also, there isn't a single competitive long-time Smasher on these boards who doesn't want the meta and tournament development scene to be healthy. As for the old routine you speak of, I am perplexed. Unless there is a popular new mode available, this "old routine" is the face of competitive smash. It will likely never change. It sticks because it works.
A few things here. One referring to people as ilk isn't going to make you any friends, nor will it help any game scene of any kind thrive. The moment you start to indiscriminately treat a certain group of players badly, even if they are horribly wrong you hurt everyone as a whole. Who wants to listen to the opinions of someone who outright insults them from the get go? Maybe people don't always agree or follow the decisions of the elite because these elites and their supporters treat them badly even in a civil conversation? Why not try a fresh look, or be a bit more open about what goes on back there?

Wow, not only are you ignorant of what the backroom is composed of, you don't seem to appreciate the value of good players and good TOs. You don't magically get accepted into the backroom. These good players contribute a valuable opinion because they are the gold standard for determining the potential abuses of things in the game. The TOs have worked over many events with many players, you know, players who actually go to tournaments. The TOs work with feedback and needs from the players. The backrooms evolved from this group of people. Why should anyone else decide what's best for the competitive scene? Why should the opinion of the village idiot be given equal weight to that of Socrates?
Let's say I have a top class soldier. He can fight every battle he's in to perfections under the orders of a strategist. Now, that soldier gets promoted to making strategies. Just because they did well on the battlefield does not necessarily mean they'll make good strategies to be used on the battlefield.

I understand very much the backroom has amazing players and TOs, I would never think otherwise. But just because a player is really good, or someone hosts the most tournaments. doesn't mean they are the best at crafting a ruleset. I know some of the people back there do have these skills, but I can't say all do, especially since I can't even see anything they ever talk about and so much is kept secret. And the TOs working with the top players, friends they'll see often at events and they want patronage for, is going to lead towards a bias towards them getting what they want whether intended or not even if it isn't actually what is best.[/quote]


The best this thread could hope to do is try to define what is acceptable in competitive Smash, but if you're not working on a ruleset, then that is really just what is defining what is good competitive sensibilities, and to be honest, after seeing the relative inexperience of you guys, the discussion is bound to turn into a no no no no yes.
I'm not going to go into detail on how things went back there, but I'll just say that everyone should look at what actually happened. The unity ruleset (which was a subset of the BR, far from all of us even) failed. To my knowledge, nothing else the BR did in terms of rulesets ever affected anything past about 2 months when a ruleset would come out (and a handful of TOs would use their rules... for a little bit). Somehow, somewhere along the line, we have to do something different even if your desire to have the elites decide everything were going to be the gold standard for the community. My belief is that it requires broader participation. I still think the backroom and persons of general stature in the community have a big role; that's where leadership comes from. However, leadership of the elite does not and should not preclude the participation of the masses. Socrates carries his bigger voice than the village idiot because the whole village is listening to both of them, and they know who bears logic and who is indeed an idiot.

I could say a lot more here, and was about to include three more paragraphs (I haven't changed deep down over the years; that's for sure!). The main point of them can be summarized in two important points that are linked. The first is that there's so much we don't know. We see inexperienced people saying things about an unknown game. Will those people develop as players and community figures and be important down the line? What will the playerbase of tomorrow think about all this? What will the game be like, and what kinds of ideas will make sense in it? We really don't know, but what we do know shows that while there are particulars plenty worth disagreeing with, the general theme of what a lot of them are saying in "liberalize the ruleset" is likely a good idea. The second is that this whole forum arguing game is a patient one. Honestly, nothing we say now really matters too much; the real politics that determine our collective future will begin when release is a bit more eminent (probably 2-3 months before). Right now most of us are feeling out positions, trying to make impressions on potential future allies, and building up our reputations in this seed from which we'll eventually see the community for a new game grow. When you look at this topic not as a huge consequential thing that will determine the future itself so much as a chance for some of these guys to cut their teeth on policy debate while some of the rest of us just keep sharp with low stakes, a lot of it makes a lot more sense.



Just because experience is brought up, I'll throw out I've more then cut my teeth in PSASBR being one of the only people to run anything and being in the backroom for the game itself. However, we ran things differently. We invited some theory crafting people or people with possible fresh looks at things and we looked at what they said, tested it, and found that some things we never may have agreed on before are actually correct. Much would have been lost had we not reached out and let the community have a larger hand in things. (The game is dead now sadly, but during it's life we had a good run. Game never stood a chance with lacking support and Sony itself saying it was dead...)

But as another note, I do like the idea of this as a ground for new people to try and talk, and maybe all of us collectively think about what we've done in the past and what may happen in the future. I've never been a big poster here, but I've followed the history of smash for a long time. It was now I decided to dig in and start posting and being heard. This is a good time to see where the next game may be heading in terms of player base, and to get newcomers information they may not have had. L Canceling is still a glitch to some people, certain terms are a foreign language to some, and many others don't know the history of why something was banned or why certain decisions were made. But alienating instead of educating these people just makes us all look bad, and it's one of the reasons why competitive players get such a bad rep.
 

Dr. James Rustles

Daxinator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
4,019
A few things here. One referring to people as ilk isn't going to make you any friends, nor will it help any game scene of any kind thrive. The moment you start to indiscriminately treat a certain group of players badly, even if they are horribly wrong you hurt everyone as a whole. Who wants to listen to the opinions of someone who outright insults them from the get go? Maybe people don't always agree or follow the decisions of the elite because these elites and their supporters treat them badly even in a civil conversation? Why not try a fresh look, or be a bit more open about what goes on back there?
What is the point of making your text so small? Don't do that. That isn't a footnote. This is not a board for ants.

This isn't me being indiscriminate. I was accurate in describing the target, so I was perfectly discriminate. Please do not select words indiscriminately just to incite. This next idea isn't meant to be inflammatory, but you should definitely consider the context: A lot of people are stuck in the mental dark ages. They will easily confuse an adherence to correctness and accuracy with condescension and pomp. Just because someone had their ego bruised doesn't mean that anyone treated them badly.

...just because a player is really good, or someone hosts the most tournaments. doesn't mean they are the best at crafting a ruleset.
Okay, it doesn't mean they are the best at crafting a rulset, but how is not being one of the best players the best grounds for qualification in crafting a ruleset? They each know the limitations of the characters in the game, especially the limitations that can't be pushed with skill. They know you can spend all day trying to get back on stage with Ness and it won't work against another good player. They know about hitbox data, windup, animation length, every single sweetspot under the sun, knockback, hitstun, hitlag, di opportunities, everything. They know every single part of the stage where they can kill what character at what % with what move. They are the gold standard for whether or not something is broken in the game.

Your soldier promotion analogy completely falls apart in the face of the fact there isn't a higher level of play than two or four people fighting.

Why do you keep bringing up TOs possibly being biased? Sure, they're not incapable of being biased, but in case you didn't know, these people love this game! They love this game so much they often run events at their own expense! The integrity of this game is very important to them. Only in a few cases do they actually make any money from events, and that might be if they own the venue and sell concessions or something.
 
Top Bottom