Stage Discussion

[Aggromidget]

So I've played Captain Falcon a while, and this is what I've gathered from the community about the stages. Note this is not about play-style.

Fountain of Dreams is widely considered to be a falcon killer due to low platforms messing up SHFFLs. Has higher ceiling, which doesn't affect Falcon's ability to kill since he usually kills of the side, and allows survival of such moves as Fox's u-air.

Battlefield has a decent amount of stage which allows for good mobility. Widely considered to be the most neutral stage

Dreamland is the same as battlefield, but somewhat larger (stage and blast zones).

Yoshi's Story is bad for mobility (since it's so small), but allows for kills at lower percentages (again, since it's so small)

Final Destination allows complete freedom of movement horizontally except when he is locked down by projectiles like turnips and lasers since he can't use platforms to approach at a different angle. Also, getting back on stage is slightly more difficult is the option to wave land off stand, double jump onto platform, wave land on platform is gone. Allows for easier tech chase to death.

Pokemon Stadium allows for complete freedom of movement, although you have to avoid some areas in some transformations (left side of rock).

Reason I want to start this discussion is 1) I couldn't find any info on Falcon's preferred stages and 2) My personal preferences are different to the consensus (surprise surprise). So here is my input.

Fountain of Dreams - While the low platforms certainly mess up Falcon's Knee and Stomp, just be aware that you can't use those options when the platforms are low, but that other options are just as good. Specifically, u-air doesn't need to be fast falled, so you can go straight into another aerial/platform drop u-air... etc. In any case, the only platform that really messes Falcon is the lowest one, which doesn't occur often. Also, any of the lowered platforms allows you to stomp pressure your opponent when he's below it, or my preference - stomp, platform drop u-air, to free grab/knee depending on shield.

Battlefield and Dreamland are perfectly good Falcon stages, with nothing messing him up.

Yoshi's Story is small (obviously) which actually allows for movement that is harder/impossible on other stages. What I'm referring to is the ease and speed with which you can change your angle of attack by wave landing off platforms continually, which is (imo) a fantastic mix up. Plus I love taking stocks early.

Now pretty much every Falcon player loves Pokemon Stadium. I love the neutral stage, but the transformations (and the ledges) kill me. I don't even want to fight on the rock or fire transformation because I feel as though my movement is crippled. I hang on one side, and proceed to get owned. The water (windmill) transformation just seems like a FD stage, but the windmill does nothing to help him and even helps opponents to survive hard hits by bouncing of it. The grass transformation seems to me to be the most even transformation.

Final Destination is great for movement, and is the easiest of the stages that allows tech chase grabs to high percents and his dash dance is a decent mix up.

Gotta post this so response can be made already

Thoughts?

 

[Ziodyne]

FoD is really bad against very defense-oriented opponents. It's awful against Puff/Sheik because they can use the platforms a lot better for their defense than you can. On the bright side, there is no escape from stomp-thru-platforms on low platforms. Also, I kinda like FoD against aggressive spacies. Gotta be tricky with platform shenanigans though.

BF, YS, and DL are all preference in some way IMO. At the moment, I like Battlefield regardless, but I lean towards YS over DL. Dreamland is more for Falcons who want space to move around, but Yoshi's is for Falcons who want an easier time catching their opponent. In the past, I liked DL a lot more and I still think it's a very good stage, but after today, I'm not sure I would want to pick it against a Fox anymore. Yeah, I live longer and I have space to run, but I find it really hard to pin down a really slippery Fox here.

FD could be my least favorite stage right now. Approach and bait options are severely limited compared to any other stage and you are pretty much solely relying on the ability to kill someone off a stray hit. Well, I'm okay with it against Marth/Sheik, but I probably would avoid taking either space animal here if I could avoid it.

PS is probably my favorite stage. I'm actually pretty comfortable with all the transformations to some degree, though all of them have something that also kinda turns me off. Fire/rock is cool when you can lock your opponent down, get them rolling, and you can punish all of their techs, but trying approach a good camper who can control space is a no-no. Water/grass both allow a good amount of movement on both sides, but have some awkward platform setups that sometimes **** up my combos (though that could be due to inexperience). Need to think of better ways to cover that little tree in the grass stage. Maybe just a stomp would suffice?
I think Falcon can work on every stage, but it all ends up being preference/play-style IMO

 

[Aggromidget]

Got any tips for Pokemon Stadium specifically? Any areas to avoid? I ask because I get owned and I have no idea how I'm supposed to manoeuvre around the stage, with it's uneven ground and obstacles

 

[Ziodyne]

There's a lot of little stuff to know about the stage.

On the fire stage, right side of the tree is quite obviously the better half of the stage for Falcon. There is actually room to run. My general goal is to force opponents to the wall, less room for them to run and good potential for silly wall-bounce combos (unless they're solid with their wall-techs, though you can try to cover those too). That or use the raised platform for platform tech-chases/juggles. I generally never fight on the left side unless I feel confident I can trick my opponent somehow, and even then I usually just get a good hit or small combo then just GTFO.

Rock stage kinda works on a similar principle. The small edge on the left side of the mountain is a super danger zone, but if you can catch your opponent slipping here, you've got them cornered in a very nasty spot. The small pit in the middle is a death cage. I don't challenge any characters there with substantial range on their moves (Marth/Sheik), but against Fox/Falco I take my chances. Not recommended against a super technical Fox that can waveshine infinite you to death, but if the Fox is not solid on that, you can punish the mess ups really hard because they have almost nowhere to run. Right side is generally where I do all the real fighting though. Take note of the weird edge due to uneven ground on the right edge of the stage, it ****s up a lot of things, namely roll lengths.

Water stage, if you're trying to avoid getting killed, getting hit into the windmill is probably one of your best bets at surviving. I usually avoid chasing anyone on the windmill, cuz it's a really risky spot to be in IMO, and I usually just try to shark them from underneath. Biggest concern for me is the slight incline near the windmill, which can screw up some SHFFL's (namely nairs) and slightly changes up the timing of tech-chases since there could be more/less time before the opponent has to hit the tech.

Grass stage plays pretty normally.

One neat trick to keep in mind is that side-B auto-cancels on walls, and there are a ****ton of walls on the transformations. Besides the obvious ones in the rock stage and the fire stage, you can cancel side-B near the right edge of both the water and rock stage because the slightly uneven ground acts as a wall near the edge.

Apart from that, just gotta use the smaller space to your advantage and outplay your opponent.

 

[Smokey Huntz]

FoD is dirty once you learn how to sheild drop, be aware of platforms, and ledge cancel. Like you said less knee more U-air because you can even use it to sorta happy feet on lower platforms

BF Pretty good falcon stage especially if you have solid movement, it's pretty open (for falcons into that sorta thing) and allows for a pretty even neutral game

DL widely believed to be falcons best stage, and it can be dependent on play style. if you run around alot and avoid getting hit using guerrilla warfare to get in on your opponents then it's perfect

Ys My personal fave. It's so small that you can get around ridiculously fast if your wavelands are on point. You kill really easy and it forces aggressive play

FD Falcons worst stage IMO (except against fox) falcons main thing in my head is using platforms to approach and trap opponents. No platforms forces you to play differently

PS It's final D with platforms so I guess that makes it good, I never counterpick here put i'm pretty good here so it might be a good falcon stage

 

[Aggromidget]

I've been messing around on Fountain of Dreams, seeing what messes him up. Mainly doing aerials from below the lowered platforms. What's really strange is that when the platforms are at the second lowest, the right platform allows him to get the stomp out (if done immediately), but the left platform at the same height doesn't. Or maybe there's a minute discrepancy in height. I'd appreciate some others testing this, although I'm pretty sure that FoD is every Falcon's ban anyway, so they don't bother with this stage. I'd like to see if I can change the perception about this stage, or maybe change my own. Any input would be great

 

[Aggromidget]

Bump for more input :O

Edit 6th Oct: Okay, I'll restart, cos I wanna convince you guys that FoD isn't the worst Falcon stage. Hope I'm not getting annoying, though you guys should say so if I am. I don't wanna piss everyone off and not know it

FD could be my least favorite stage right now. Approach and bait options are severely limited compared to any other stage and you are pretty much solely relying on the ability to kill someone off a stray hit. Well, I'm okay with it against Marth/Sheik, but I probably would avoid taking either space animal here if I could avoid it.

FD Falcons worst stage IMO (except against fox) falcons main thing in my head is using platforms to approach and trap opponents. No platforms forces you to play differently

So you guys reckon FD is quite bad for Falcon. I wanna talk about the spacy match-up on this stage since spacies are popular (in my region, seems like 1/2 the players use spacies, but I'll guess that it's closer to 1/3 in others).
This stage is a tech-chase stage, and the main FOX I play against will tech-chase regrab me to edgeguard, so I have to aim not to get grabbed. Space properly with n-airs.
Against FALCO, they all spam lasers, which is the smart thing. Generally, I just try to get close enough to Falco so that he'll stop shooting, because percentages must not be given away for free. A full hop will close the distance, unless they hit you midair with a laser (which is somewhat difficult). N-air their space, land and grab and . . .

So this is my main point here. I'm wondering how effective it would be for Falcon to do a tech-chase regrab to dropzone on this stage. My choice in throw for this is u-throw since if they don't tech the throw, you can jab reset without moving, whereas getting the jab reset after d-throw is far more difficult. So, grab, (pummel,) u-throw, jab (as early as possible), then tech-chase regrab. The jab will make it so that they can't do a get-up attack. Note after the jab, they can roll to either side to get up. If they tech the throw, the jab won't hit, but you should have enough time to chase the tech to regrab.
I'm not sure at what percentage they can jump from the throw without hitting the ground. Also, I'm not sure about the effect on their DI since I've been testing this idea on a CPU. If they DI your throw away, I think you might have enough time to wavedash towards them before the jab. From testing, you can u-throw to regrab without them hitting the ground from 60%.
Basically what I'm going for is a simple zero-to-death which can all be done on reaction.
This is what I'm suggesting Falcon can do when he's attacking. I understand that when he's in a combo here, he'll be in a combo for a while, which is a big negative for this stage, but hopefully you guys reckon his offence here is just as deadly.

I hope this isn't 'bad' for the game.

P.S. Can someone just put up a reply. I don't wanna triple post for attention.

 

[Windrose]

Firstly, I'm certain there is a thread made by scar and/or myself that talks about falcon stage choices in depth. but it doesn't hurt to discuss it somemore, sometimes metagames change.

In response to your discussion here, FD is very momentum based. It's destroy or get destroyed because there's no where to go for escape. Learning how to play on FoD and making sure how to position yourself in respect to platforms can really improve your outcomes on that stage. most space animals hate that stage, it's hard to sweet spot the ledge, falco can't laser as much (but he can do some nasty double dair combos with low platform heights). so learning how to navigate well on FoD is really useful, s2j loves FoD.

On FD vs Falco, you better be good at shielding lasers because you can't rely on jumping around to dodge lasers without platforms. Being able to effectively shield lasers as late as possible and wave dash oos is critical vs falco in general but especially important on FD. (see hax vs stricnyn3 for demonstration).

In response to your discussion on 0-to death tech chase regrab into dropzone on fd. You are not considering a few things that would make this a lot harder.

DI, good opponents will DI the throw be it down throw or upthrow away to make it harder for you to tech chase regrab consistently as well as being able to jab reset. You're probably better of just either punishing the no tech with a stomp/knee or just wait and dash dance around them patiently until they either get up attack, or roll or stand up and grab them based on reaction accordingly. You will most likely have to make a read at somepoint (or guess) anyways in after a throw. If the opponents know you're going to tech chase regrab a lot, they can also escape by landing near the edge and sliding off with the momentum to grab the edge, so that's another problem.

The percentage at which they can jump out without touching the ground varies based on opponent weight and whether or not the opponent is wiggling out of stun.

These are just some thoughts that comes to my mind...let me know what you guys think.

 

[Aggromidget]

Firstly, I'm certain there is a thread made by scar and/or myself that talks about falcon stage choices in depth. but it doesn't hurt to discuss it somemore, sometimes metagames change.
.

mmm yesh indeed: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...n-faq-and-training-guide.227344/#post-7019466
although I disagree on a few points made by the most electrifying man in smash. I'll elaborate further down.

In response to your discussion here, FD is very momentum based. It's destroy or get destroyed because there's no where to go for escape. Learning how to play on FoD and making sure how to position yourself in respect to platforms can really improve your outcomes on that stage. most space animals hate that stage, it's hard to sweet spot the ledge, falco can't laser as much (but he can do some nasty double dair combos with low platform heights). so learning how to navigate well on FoD is really useful, s2j loves FoD.

I completely agree on this.

On FD vs Falco, you better be good at shielding lasers because you can't rely on jumping around to dodge lasers without platforms. Being able to effectively shield lasers as late as possible and wave dash oos is critical vs falco in general but especially important on FD. (see hax vs stricnyn3 for demonstration).

I fully understand that Falco controls the neutral game here and it's a b*tch to move around with lasers everywhere. Stopping to shield lasers impedes natural movement, but wavedash out of shield is most definitely a very very useful technique. Dashing forward, shielding, wave dash oos, to dash is very trying, with perhaps getting hit by half the lasers. I'd rather get hit by a couple of lasers doing a full hop approach to close the distance to about 3 character lengths so that Falco stops lasering. I'd rather approach on my own accord than see a Falco laser approach me.

These are just some thoughts that comes to my mind...let me know what you guys think.

Many thanks

Edit: Taken from Scar's post in the FAQ and training thread.

Neutral Stages
Fountain Of Dreams
...
Cons: The really low platforms ruin many of your shffl attempts, and it's really small so you can't run around much.
~~
Comment: Yes, the lower heights require a little knowledge about them. The absolute lowest level (while still being over the stage) lets you pull out all aerials, no problems. The next 2 lowest don't allow you to stomp AT ALL. Also, they ruin the timing of aerials of regular Falcons, since you can't late knee for a kill (which I understand is a hindrance). You cannot do late knees here. Early and regular knees come out fine and you'll land under the platform, as usual. Interestingly, the hurtbox of the late knees don't come out, but the move instantly cancels, allowing you to do ANYTHING. I believe this is called platform cancelling. U-air and n-air come out easily enough, although you do need to be wary of l-cancel timing. All of this comes with a little practice.
Yes the stage is small. No, you CAN run around. I don't even know why a small stage will hinder his movement. If you are heavily reliant on the dash dance mind games, then you might suffer. If you continually (and continuously) change your angle of attack by wave landing onto platforms, run off aerial, drop down aerial, jump to another platform, your movement is not hindered.
~~
Dreamland 64
Known as a great CF stage, for reasons that are pretty evident. CF has plenty of room to maneuver and combo, his weight makes him very hard to kill, and the platforms are great to recover on, CF really counters Marth here. Many people will ban this vs you so don't rely too heavily on it.
Pros: Very large with a nice platform layout. Large blastboxes both high and wide.

Cons: Annoying when knee doesn't kill at kill %s here.
~~
Comment: Falcon does survive longer due to his weight, but his predictable recovery makes him easy to knock back off stage/gimp. If you do have the opportunity to recover on stage, do so. Take the hit on landing lag, and survival DI. Platform layout is personal preference. I don't consider larger/wider platforms to be any advantage to smaller platforms.
~~
Battlefield
Pros: Nice platform layout, big enough to run and camp. Stupid ledge hurts other characters more than it hurts you. Easier to edgeguard most recoveries here b/c the option or riding up a wall is eliminated. Blastboxes are a nice balance between your survivability and knee's killing ability.

Cons: Not as big as many of the other neutrals, CF doesn't grab the ledge with his double jump sometimes. Getting trapped under the stage is unpleasant but again not as bad as with most other characters.
~~
Comment: I think the ledge is great for the reverse up-b
~~
Yoshi's Story
My honest advice is to choose Yoshi's when you're probably going to lose on other stages. It is a very small, random, chaotic stage where anything can happen. Throw out a knee here and there and if your opponent gets hit by it at 40% and misses the DI, they will certainly lose their stock. Dair>fsmash combos on spacies will kill at about 60%. Learn to repeatedly walljump to stall for the cloud and your survivability greatly increases, but basically this stage leaves much to luck relatively speaking.

Pros: Wall gives more recovery options, the cloud saves also help prevent you from getting gimped. Small blastboxes allow for fsmash/knee kills at very low %s. Despite its small size the platforms allow for a lot of maneuverability on the stage.

Cons: Very small stage with little room to run away. Very high bottom blastbox takes away from CF's recovery options. Survivability greatly decreased.
~~
Comment: Personal favourite. Lower kill percentages. True that Randall is a saviour since Falcon can wall-jump-stall. Cool tricks with running off edge, double jump, waveland on platform (either direction. Mix it up). Wavelanding platforms are fantastic mix-ups. Just watch Jeapie's Falcon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22cMg_erj0. Not exclusive to this stage, but the waveland off stages are fantastic.
~~
Pokemon Stadium
Stadium is a great CF stage in my opinion. Knee kills are very reliable thanks to the small sides of the stage, but the stage itself is huge. The transformations are really bad vs spacies but not a problem vs anyone else, usually you'll just camp eachother out. Very worthwhile stage to learn and CP.

Pros: Very large central platform, and no middle platform to tech on after stomp>knee. Small side blastboxes for low% knee kills. Great platform layout for both comboing and recovery.

Cons: Rock/Fire transformations are miserable. Weird ledge mechanics in transformations limit defensive options.
~~
Comment: I have gathered that pretty much every falcon loves this stage. Someone lay down some more pros or tips. I'll take Scar's word that sides are small - I haven't noticed. Transformations are really bad against spacies. Caps So what do I do here then **cries tears of tears**. I despise the transformations, as I've explained in an earlier post.
~~

Final Destination
FD is no joke. Very good stage for very experienced CFs, there is not much to get in the way of your combos and tech chases besides a good opponent.

Pros: No platforms, nowhere to run from CF. Very large. Good blastboxes.

Cons: No platforms to assist recovery, certain characters can chaingrab CF forever on FD.
~~
Comment: I'll explore the regrab tech-chase some more. Falco lasers shut Falcon out. Close the gap rapidly. Falcon gets combo'd here so hard against spacies. Work on your combo skills so that you can match it.
~~

I hope I don't get hate for lumping my opinions here >.>

 

[Nicco]

Wait a minute.... are you sure that you can throw out a jab and still regrab any tech option? I always drop tech chases because I choke once they stop teching, but if this is true, then I'm about to lame it out on the spacies.

 

[Aggromidget]

Wait a minute.... are you sure that you can throw out a jab and still regrab any tech option? I always drop tech chases because I choke once they stop teching, but if this is true, then I'm about to lame it out on the spacies.

My technique is reliant on the fact that Falcon is fast enough to throw out that jab to cover the no-tech. If I jab their no-tech, they can still roll to one side (though it's rare). If they tech, Falcon is fast enough to chase them down. I'm still working on this technique. If they do tech, you can always gentleman. Gentleman is way easier on PAL, and I think it's underused.

 

[Nicco]

I've only played NTSC a few times, but I never had trouble with the gentleman. It IS underused, especially CC'ed gentleman which can be near impossible with some controllers.

I tried doing the WD -> jab tech chase today and it seemed to work. Don't know if you can regrab on a tech in place with this though.

EDIT: The NTSC knee is absolutely wonderful though. Weak knee to strong knee in PAL is really rare, and it's harder to gimp spacies in PAL with the nerfed knee of bullshiiit.

 

[Aggromidget]

I've only played NTSC a few times, but I never had trouble with the gentleman. It IS underused, especially CC'ed gentleman which can be near impossible with some controllers.

I tried doing the WD -> jab tech chase today and it seemed to work. Don't know if you can regrab on a tech in place with this though.

EDIT: The NTSC knee is absolutely wonderful though. Weak knee to strong knee in PAL is really rare, and it's harder to gimp spacies in PAL with the nerfed knee of bullshiiit.

If you u-throw and they don't DI, I don't think you need to wavedash to jab.
If they DI away, I think wavedash is sufficient.
At Mass Madness, Hax used d-throw, dash, wavedash, to regrab. It seems to me that you have to react to the no-tech to jab really quickly, whereas with u-throw, react to DI, then jab no matter what. As I've stated before, I'm still testing this method out.
Hopefully I can get the hang of this so that FD becomes the simplest stage ever.
I don't know the many of the small differences between PAL and NTSC (I'm not gonna go through it), but weak knee to u-air seems simple enough. Now post your 100th message and get trophy points.
I've also been messing around with FoD, and predominantly hanging on the side platforms seems effective for me. Again, will mess around with it more. I think this stage is not terrible for falcon, like everyone says.

 

[gravy]

On a side note, I think everyone should practice on FOD all the time. It will make you a stronger player in dealing with uncomfortable situations, and everyone is going to counter pick you to this stage anyways.

 

[Aggromidget]

Okay, I've played a s***tonne on this stage recently, and I have to say that it's a comfortable stage with me.
What people (falcons) need to know about this stage is that they (most likely) have to change the way they approach (at some times).
The main concern is when the platforms are LOW and falcon is not on the platforms, people can't short hop stomp at all, and may have trouble getting short hop knee out if they don't knee early enough. These are the only/main concerns of falcons everywhere.
I learned when I can't use stomp and knee, and experimented with different approaches.

OH MY GAWD - short (backflip) hop waveland seems super fast on the lower platforms (when they're low), so if they're on, it's a super quick grab. Granted that's not super viable, usually to be used when they're in shield on the lowered platforms. So... waveland off, single hit n-air grab. Or waveland on stage backwards to catch a roll or something. This allows for an incredibly rapid change in the direction of attack, which I find very useful, more so than simple dash dancing. So many backflip wavelands, you can just glide on the side and top platforms.

Side-B can reach the opponent on the lowered platform at a surprising height is FAR safer than side-b in regular neutral game. What's also fantastic about side-b is that when YOU use it when you're on the lowered platform and they're under it, you can actually reach down and scoop them up. If you miss, you fall off the platform onto the ground with (I believe) reduced lag. And we know all about the potential of side b. It sends them off at a GREAT angle for combos. The reason why it's not used a whole lot in competitive play is that it's a little bit slow, and if you miss, it's pretty much a guaranteed punished. But using it in these scenarios reduces the chance of the punish, so you can use it a bit more, setting up combos for early KOs on a stage with small side blastboxes (I believe).

Of course, the obvious benefit of the lowered platform is the ability to stomp through, and hit those on the ground (or their shield). I've found that it's important to stomp as soon as possible so that the hitbox is still out when you hit the lowered platform. It's important to stomp early so that you can catch them jumping/approaching. If you hit their shield (hopefully you've l-cancelled properly) they're in a bit of stun, drop through the platform with another attack, hitting their shield with n-air or u-air (I love n-air, especially single hit n-air... I love both varieties equally) GRAAAAABBB u-throw, then proceed to throw kitchen sink at him.

The situation in which (I'm guessing) people find themselves at problem is when the characters are on opposite sides of the stage. I've already mentioned the platform wavelanding approaches, which is amazing, but also, it's important to know what works. Approach with short hop stomp is pretty much out of the question since the hitbox won't come out and you'll land on the platform, effectively having run up with no guard/attack. Short hop knee requires you to knee early, and you'll land on the platform, so time l-cancel properly. If they're on the platform, this approach is somewhat viable if you're quick enough, but I find it's quite difficult to hit the knee in the NEUTRAL game. N-air is the neutral game king. For the n-air, it seemed to me that only the first hit comes out, so again, time l-cancel properly. U-air won't be affected by the platform at all.

Of course, keep in mind when the platforms are lowered and when they're not. When they're not, you have regular falcon movement. When they are, be wary of what moves/approaches are not viable or become more viable. And remember, you don't always have to approach. You can always space n-airs/b-airs in the middle of the stage and catch a jump/approach. Bear in mind, spacing doesn't mean doing an attack on the spot, which is what I used to believe. MIX IT UP.