SSB4: Melee mechanics or Brawl mechanics.

[StaffofSmashing]

Long typing at 11:13 PM. Logic.

In Melee, characters had faster overall speed and high falling speed. Air Dodging was different which eventually led to the unmasking of the Wavedash. Air Dodging rendered you helpless, but helped you in what I call "Air Stall". Many famous techniques were removed, causing Project M to come into play.

In Brawl, characters were slower and floatier, for a more casual match. ADing didn't stall you or render you helpless. Character's attacks also did lower damage (I did a but of research.) Many techniques were removed, such as L-Canceling and Wavedashing.

Sakurai has confirmed that the overall speed will be in between the 2, but we don't know which set of mechanics he will use, or make the new mechanics in between?

DISCUSS IN 3!
2!
1!

 

[Xermo]

You must not have watched Sakurai's gameplay demonstration. The game is clearly utilizing Brawl's mechanics but with a faster speed and some changes here and there.

 

[JediLink]

We've seen nowhere near enough of SSB4 to know what it's like (not to mention it's still in development). The only things we know for sure at this point are that the air dodge is the Brawl version and not the Melee version, and that random tripping is definitely gone. We've also heard about new ledge mechanics but the information we got was pretty vague.

 

[RODO]

Melee falling speed and hit stun with brawl's air dodge

 

[Desu_Maiden]

I hope SSB4 doesn't have random tripping, like in Brawl. Even though you tripped 1 out of 100 times for dashing, it was still very annoying.

 

[lordvaati]

I shall let you decipher for yourself.

 

[RODO]

From what I can tell, it's not near as floaty as Brawl, which is what most people hated about the game. I don't see it being that bad off.

 

[MasterofMonster]

I hope SSB4 doesn't have random tripping, like in Brawl. Even though you tripped 1 out of 100 times for dashing, it was still very annoying.

Random tripping was confirmed to be gone the day after E3. ^^ But Tripping is still here, most likely from Bananas, Ice, and MAYBE Down Tilts. And Tingle~

I liked how Brawl was played, but I Think a combo between Melee and Brawl is for the best.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Here's a rundown of the physics from the videos

Wii U version:
regular falling speed looks slightly floatier than Melee, fast falling on the other hand is pretty much = Melee
hitstun can't be cancelled this time, you can exit tumble state easily
aerial control and air speeds look greater than both Brawl and Melee
air dodging works like Brawl, dodge rolls look faster
landing lag from air attacks looks the same as Brawl.

it looks pretty great. I see Sakurai learned well from Project M

4 3ds version:
It's Brawl to a T - floatier than Brawl, slower than Brawl, massive hit lag on every move. Not touching this one tbqh.

 

[pitthekit]

I want melee mechanics but brawls buffer system.

Also I hope you can actually have more perfect combos in ssb4.

Brawls hitstun was way to low, casuals and competitive players both enjoy combos.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Everyone here seems to favor Melee's mechanics over Brawl's.

 

[Muster]

Just to clarify, Sakurai has stated that there are multiple air dodges "at this point", so that is subject to change. linky here

 

[mimgrim]

4 3ds version:
It's Brawl to a T - floatier than Brawl, slower than Brawl, massive hit lag on every move. Not touching this one tbqh.

That's funny since the gameplay is going to be the same as the Wii-U version, aside from stages.


Anyway, the most we have seen is basically 1 gameplay video. That is not enough to go by on what direction SSB4 is taking. Just remember that, just because SSB4 is starting off of Brawl's engine it doesn't mean anything because Brawl started off of Melee's engine.

As for mechanics. Why not new stuff with the best things from Brawl and Melee.

 

[xandre]

less floaty for sure, and quick enough i suppose. taking away wavedashing isn't a death sentence, though it definitely takes away a dimension. however, if you don't have away to cancel out of those airs somehow, that's basically it for this game for a lot of people, myself included. that would take away a TON of combo/follow-up potential. there is a moment when mario comes out of a b-air very fast, which may mean that there are a lot of moves with very low landing lag naturally. but at another spot he puts out a forward air that has tons of lag after landing.

 

[DaDavid]

Melee falling speed and hit stun with brawl's air dodge

This is what I'd like to see honestly. I was never on a fan of Melee's air dodge and the loss of wave-dashing is not one that'll bother me.

But there's no way I want to play this game with the floaty feel of Brawl, and combos neeeed to come back if I'm gonna play this in the long term which I'm really hoping to. The truth is that everything Sakurai has said so far and that one gameplay vid, along with the trailers, make me feel confident that this will be a great evolution from Brawl that incorporates some of what it left back in Melee.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Take the best of both.

Remove the worst of both.

 

[-TAG-]

If anything, Melee-like Fast Falling speed and hitstun that is higher than Melee's is definitely what Smash 4 needs.

 

[ecylisis]

I feel like air dodging should be a compromise. Works like Brawl if you don't move the control stick while air dodging, works like Melee if you do.

So you can air dodge in place without stopping your momentum or making you helpless, or you can do it like Melee, picking a direction to move in, but going into your helpless state and stopping momentum.

 

[DaDavid]

I feel like air dodging should be a compromise. Works like Brawl if you don't move the control stick while air dodging, works like Melee if you do.

So you can air dodge in place without stopping your momentum or making you helpless, or you can do it like Melee, picking a direction to move in, but going into your helpless state and stopping momentum.

I could get behind this. Like... a lot haha.

 

[LancerStaff]

'Melee was too difficult.'-Sakurai

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult

Well, it's safe to say Wavedashing and L-canceling are dead...

 

[Substitution]

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai.

 

[DaDavid]

'Melee was too difficult.'-Sakurai

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult

Well, it's safe to say Wavedashing and L-canceling are dead...

This isn't exactly a secret, especially since Wavedashing was just a product of Melee's airdodge system which fairly obviously isn't returning.

As far as L-Cancelling goes that's whatever to me. Just a tedious input, though I hope sakurai works on making certain characters recover from attacks more quickly.

 

[Starcutter]

Ssb4 mechanics. Doooooone

 

[The Real Gamer]

I feel like air dodging should be a compromise. Works like Brawl if you don't move the control stick while air dodging, works like Melee if you do.

So you can air dodge in place without stopping your momentum or making you helpless, or you can do it like Melee, picking a direction to move in, but going into your helpless state and stopping momentum.

This is the greatest idea I've read in weeks.

 

[xandre]

'Melee was too difficult.'-Sakurai

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult

Well, it's safe to say Wavedashing and L-canceling are dead...

yeah. i've never understood the "game is too hard" argument. it's a multiplayer game. it should be as hard as your opponent is good. my friends and i played melee for years before someone came in and showed us how deep the game really was. we were terrible, but we were ALL terrible and it was competitive and fun because of that. they all continued to play melee at a low level for a long time and enjoyed it a lot, despite finally seeing how incomprehensive their games were. in fact, when brawl came out it was even too slow, floaty and boring for them, and they've never had a wavedash or shffl among them. it's like making MLB players use softballs so that a bunch of schmoes can play with them. we don't need one, single league of smash players, we need a game that allows insanely talented people to stand out--while simultaneously allowing low-skill players to still have fun competing with players of about the same caliber. the arbitrary gimp hammer simply cuts out higher tiers of play, and accomplishes nothing more.

i'm no prophet, but my prediction for 4 is "close, but no cigar." it will be a vast improvement to brawl, but will be short a few dimensions that might have made it a hard cult classic like melee and p:m. that said, it will probably be pretty fun. hopefully there will be mechanics that compensate for the depth abandoned in l-cancelling and wavedashing, but it's hard to imagine what they would look like from here.

 

[Renji64]

it want it closer to melee due to brawl was so defensive and didn't have combos and isn't fun to watch as well. But the game so far seems like it is brawl+ hd i played brawl+ for a long time so i can deal with it but it isn't ideal.

'Melee was too difficult.'-Sakurai

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult

Well, it's safe to say Wavedashing and L-canceling are dead...

seems so welcome to super casual brothers all depth will be removed in future installments.

 

[LancerStaff]

seems so welcome to super casual brothers all depth will be removed in future installments.

Lemme just quote SmashChu.

'One of the golden rules of the Smash community. If it isn't hard, it's Mario Party.

The problem with your assertion, that the technical barriers could easily be overcome with work is flawed because we are playing a damn video game, not working a job. Video games are suppose to be something we do for fun and in our spare time. Most people work 40 hours a week or more. These people, the average man, doesn't want to spend his time "overcoming barriers." He wants to play some video games. Even for those in school who don't work ful time jobs, they would rather spend their time on classes, studying, the opposite sex and other activities. Not "overcoming barriers." The problem is the competitive community is not the norm, they are the exception. People don't want to master tech skills and boost their APM. They want to play a video game. They want to get to enjoying their game, not overcoming barriers. Getting better is not a priority.

What the community doesn't understand is they are not a special snowflake. Brawl sold over 11 million and the community probably only makes a percent or two of that. Most people don't want these tech barriers and they loudly voiced themselves on this matter during Brawl's development. The argument that "They wont notice they are there," flies out the window in an online environment. People were upset about Snaking for the same reason (and that is far easier than the stuff in Melee).The lack of tech skills does not take away from the competitive nature of the game. Up until E3 2013, the biggest Smash tournament was Brawl at Apex 2013. It hasn't stopped the Japanese from trying to master the game. The problem is the community can't let go of Melee. Case in point, tech skills for their sake only take away from the game and are only for people who's lives revolve around the game. Most people's games revolve around their life. As there are over 11 million fans of the series, they don't want to see their beloved series turn into a game that's not for them. Smash grew by being for intermediate players, not the best of the best. Tech skills throws away everything the series has built up.'

 

[Renji64]

Lemme just quote SmashChu.

'One of the golden rules of the Smash community. If it isn't hard, it's Mario Party.

The problem with your assertion, that the technical barriers could easily be overcome with work is flawed because we are playing a damn video game, not working a job. Video games are suppose to be something we do for fun and in our spare time. Most people work 40 hours a week or more. These people, the average man, doesn't want to spend his time "overcoming barriers." He wants to play some video games. Even for those in school who don't work ful time jobs, they would rather spend their time on classes, studying, the opposite sex and other activities. Not "overcoming barriers." The problem is the competitive community is not the norm, they are the exception. People don't want to master tech skills and boost their APM. They want to play a video game. They want to get to enjoying their game, not overcoming barriers. Getting better is not a priority.

What the community doesn't understand is they are not a special snowflake. Brawl sold over 11 million and the community probably only makes a percent or two of that. Most people don't want these tech barriers and they loudly voiced themselves on this matter during Brawl's development. The argument that "They wont notice they are there," flies out the window in an online environment. People were upset about Snaking for the same reason (and that is far easier than the stuff in Melee).The lack of tech skills does not take away from the competitive nature of the game. Up until E3 2013, the biggest Smash tournament was Brawl at Apex 2013. It hasn't stopped the Japanese from trying to master the game. The problem is the community can't let go of Melee. Case in point, tech skills for their sake only take away from the game and are only for people who's lives revolve around the game. Most people's games revolve around their life. As there are over 11 million fans of the series, they don't want to see their beloved series turn into a game that's not for them. Smash grew by being for intermediate players, not the best of the best. Tech skills throws away everything the series has built up.'

It isn 't the lack of tech skill that bothers me. It is just you can do less from the last installment and how it plays it plays like balloon fighter more than smash it is defensive and boring. I do think there should be a difference in skill levels i also do thing you should learn to become better brawl can make average player great. Bring up brawl's sells doesn't help anything the wii was nintendo's most selling home console and it was for casuals so of course it did well. If you were anyone who enjoyed the fast paced action of melee you got spit on and told to accept a mediocre game.

 

[LancerStaff]

It isn 't the lack of tech skill that bothers me. It is just you can do less from the last installment and how it plays it plays like balloon fighter more than smash it is defensive and boring. I do think there should be a difference in skill levels i also do thing you should learn to become better brawl can make average player great. Bring up brawl's sells doesn't help anything the wii was nintendo's most selling home console and it was for casuals so of course it did well. If you were anyone who enjoyed the fast paced action of melee you got spit on and told to accept a medircore game.

It's your fault you expected something different. Sakurai alienated the 1%. Statistically speaking, 'nobody' cares.

 

[xandre]

Lemme just quote SmashChu.

'One of the golden rules of the Smash community. If it isn't hard, it's Mario Party.

The problem with your assertion, that the technical barriers could easily be overcome with work is flawed because we are playing a damn video game, not working a job. Video games are suppose to be something we do for fun and in our spare time. Most people work 40 hours a week or more. These people, the average man, doesn't want to spend his time "overcoming barriers." He wants to play some video games. Even for those in school who don't work ful time jobs, they would rather spend their time on classes, studying, the opposite sex and other activities. Not "overcoming barriers." The problem is the competitive community is not the norm, they are the exception. People don't want to master tech skills and boost their APM. They want to play a video game. They want to get to enjoying their game, not overcoming barriers. Getting better is not a priority.

What the community doesn't understand is they are not a special snowflake. Brawl sold over 11 million and the community probably only makes a percent or two of that. Most people don't want these tech barriers and they loudly voiced themselves on this matter during Brawl's development. The argument that "They wont notice they are there," flies out the window in an online environment. People were upset about Snaking for the same reason (and that is far easier than the stuff in Melee).The lack of tech skills does not take away from the competitive nature of the game. Up until E3 2013, the biggest Smash tournament was Brawl at Apex 2013. It hasn't stopped the Japanese from trying to master the game. The problem is the community can't let go of Melee. Case in point, tech skills for their sake only take away from the game and are only for people who's lives revolve around the game. Most people's games revolve around their life. As there are over 11 million fans of the series, they don't want to see their beloved series turn into a game that's not for them. Smash grew by being for intermediate players, not the best of the best. Tech skills throws away everything the series has built up.'

this quotation ignores my central argument, so...yeah.

 

[Renji64]

It's your fault you expected something different. Sakurai alienated the 1%. Statistically speaking, 'nobody' cares.

Yeah I learned my lesson don't expect anything from that fraud that is why i'm gonna buy 4 used. He said melee is the best in the series you can tell it is It is sad to watch my favorite series on a downward sprial because people can't do a two button input like wavedashing or L-canceling and it is too hard for them lol.

 

[LancerStaff]

this quotation ignores my central argument, so...yeah.

Was I talking to you? You're arguing that the hardcore fanbase will see SSB4 as 'close, but no cigar.' I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Renji64]

yeah. i've never understood the "game is too hard" argument. it's a multiplayer game. it should be as hard as your opponent is good. my friends and i played melee for years before someone came in and showed us how deep the game really was. we were terrible, but we were ALL terrible and it was competitive and fun because of that. they all continued to play melee at a low level for a long time and enjoyed it a lot, despite finally seeing how incomprehensive their games were. in fact, when brawl came out it was even too slow, floaty and boring for them, and they've never had a wavedash or shffl among them. it's like making MLB players use softballs so that a bunch of schmoes can play with them. we don't need one, single league of smash players, we need a game that allows insanely talented people to stand out--while simultaneously allowing low-skill players to still have fun competing with players of about the same caliber. the arbitrary gimp hammer simply cuts out higher tiers of play, and accomplishes nothing more.

i'm no prophet, but my prediction for 4 is "close, but no cigar." it will be a vast improvement to brawl, but will be short a few dimensions that might have made it a hard cult classic like melee and p:m. that said, it will probably be pretty fun. hopefully there will be mechanics that compensate for the depth abandoned in l-cancelling and wavedashing, but it's hard to imagine what they would look like from here.

I never understood how is melee too hard. It has the simplest controll scheme on the planet. Most casuals play with other casuals with items on how can the game be too hard what were they trying to do? I also don't understand why sakurai pretty says it is too hard so here is balloon fighter with nintendo characters..

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah I learned my lesson don't expect anything from that fraud that is why i'm gonna buy 4 used. He said melee is the best in the series you can tell it is It is sad to watch my favorite series on a downward sprial because people can't do a two button input like wavedashing or L-canceling and it is too hard for them lol.

He never said Melee was best. Just that it was more competitive. Question: Who was SSB designed for? Casual or hardcore?

 

[Renji64]

He never said Melee was best. Just that it was more competitive. Question: Who was SSB designed for? Casual or hardcore?

SSB-Both, Melee(Both or Hardcore) He says Hardcore, Brawl(Casual Only) SSB4(Both)

 

[LancerStaff]

SSB-Both, Melee(Both or Hardcore) He says Hardcore, Brawl(Casual Only) SSB4(Both)

Lolno. Who was it designed for, not who did it appeal to.

 

[xandre]

Was I talking to you? You're arguing that the hardcore fanbase will see SSB4 as 'close, but no cigar.' I wholeheartedly agree.

you weren't talking to me, but the argument made in the quotation you provided is refutable by the argument i presented immediately before. you responded to someone else with an argument i was arguing against--right after i made my argument. whether or not you were talking to me is irrelevant to the validity of your quotation, and it is absurd to brush aside any criticism of it on the basis of some imagined procedural violation--i.e. "i wasn't talking to you, so you can't possibly have anything to say about this." i proffered the response for both your sake and for the sake of the one you addressed. if you're concerned with conducting this conversation entirely in private, i hear there is some sort of hidden functionality on smashboards.com where you can message each other p2p without engaging others who are actively party to the thread.

and no, my central argument was not that 4 will be "close but no cigar." that was a tertiary point, which is why it was in its own separate, short stanza following the body of my post. the main point, to reduce it for you even further: it is possible to make a game that can be played and enjoyed both at hardcore and casual levels (many argue that melee is such a game, as i stated), but if you put a hard ceiling on a game, there will be echelons of play inaccessible to very talented players. the issue is of course slightly more complicated than this, but your quotation doesn't really approach addressing it in its simplest forms. the response is simply, "then don't practice all the time, and play against other people who don't practice all the time." you know, like football, chess, debate, track and field, snowboarding, target shooting, etc.

 

[LancerStaff]

you weren't talking to me, but the argument made in the quotation you provided is refutable by the argument i presented immediately before. you responded to someone else with an argument i was arguing against--right after i made my argument. whether or not you were talking to me is irrelevant to the validity of your quotation, and it is absurd to brush aside any criticism of it on the basis of some imagined procedural violation--i.e. "i wasn't talking to you, so you can't possibly have anything to say about this." i proffered the response for both your sake and for the sake of the one you addressed. if you're concerned with conducting this conversation entirely in private, i hear there is some sort of hidden functionality on smashboards.com where you can message each other p2p without engaging others who are actively party to the thread.

and no, my central argument was not that 4 will be "close but no cigar." that was a tertiary point, which is why it was in its own separate, short stanza following the body of my post. the main point, to reduce it for you even further: it is possible to make a game that can be played and enjoyed both at hardcore and casual levels (many argue that melee is such a game, as i stated), but if you put a hard ceiling on a game, there will be echelons of play inaccessible to very talented players. the issue is of course slightly more complicated than this, but your quotation doesn't really approach addressing it in its simplest forms. the response is simply, "then don't practice all the time and play against other people who don't practice all the time." you know, like football, chess, debate, track and field, snowboarding, target shooting, etc.

I apologize for blowing you off. What the quote fails to mention is that SSB was created solely for casual audiences. The fact that a hardcores found it appealing was just a coincidence. Sakurai doesn't care about the 1%, and it directly conflicts with his vision of the ideal Smash.

 

[smashmachine]

Lemme just quote SmashChu.

you have already failed