Squirtles.

[ECHOnce]

Hi, I've been here on the Zelda boards for a few months, but haven't posted until now. I've been through the MU and Triforce thread, and through a bunch of others. I've gotten lucky and have been assigned to a college dorm with several other Smash players, so I get hours of daily practice with most of the PM character roster. After maining Zelda for 3 months, I feel I have her down, and feel confident going into a match against every character but one - Squirtle.

I've looked everywhere on Smashboards and elsewhere, and it seems nobody has much info on Squirtles. I didn't think much of them at first, but when a few of my friends started using him, they started abusing his high priority, speed, and super armor to heck. The two Squirtle mains were ok - I wouldn't think of myself good either - but considering that I could fairly consistently easily 2 or 3-stock them playing as mains they've put months into, and then within a few days of picking up Squirtle they're JV2 stocking me...idk.

TL;DR - Squirtle has ridiculously high priority and a plethora of moves that have unnecessary super armor. He's not an OP character or anything, I'm not here to discuss that; I just need help figuring out how to beat him when he so easily powers through all of Zelda's attacks, and punishes Zelda so hard when I miss the few attacks that can beat him in priority.

The sad part is, all they're doing is just abusing Side-B to get past Zelda's defenses; Neutral-B, F-tilt, F-smash, D-smash, N-air, jab, and D-tilt all have lower priority, and Squirtle just powers right through them. U-tilt, dash attacks (I think?), grab, and lightning kicks can, but if I'm baited into those when they're Side-B'ing by turning away, slowpoke Zelda can't really respond before Squirtle turns back around again. Teledashing isn't fast enough to get away when they're close, and if they're further away..whereelse would I go but toward them, and get hit in ending lag? Of course, when they're further away I'd probably go for Dins instead, but guess what powers through those...their Side-B. It's just...feels so stupid not being able to get past an attack that's so simple.

Obviously that's not the only thing they're doing, but every move they do that lets them retreat into their shell during the attack gives them super armor. They're side smash? Super armor. Down smash? Super armor (I think?). Several of their aerials? Super armor. As if they needed more, their down throw is a kill throw, Bubble is a ridiculously good gimp (although that's not as much of a problem for Zelda), and their U-smash has ridiculous range and kill power. And yet, the moment they play someone with a main with either higher priority than Squirtle (Ganondorf) or has long close-ranged attacks (Marth, Charizard, etc.), they lose almost consistently, going further to prove they're completely dependent on Squirtle's invulnerability against most of the roster; they seem to either win the MU, or they lose, outright. I don't even main Marth, but I got closer to beating them that way than with my mains.

I know I'm just raging to an extent at this point, and maybe a lot of this just comes down to my lack of skill. But I've been playing with these people for months, and Squirtle is just my bane. I can beat their other mains with Zelda, but I have close to 0 wins (if any at all) against their Squirtles, whether I'm using Zelda or another one of my mains, so I am a bit desperate and butthurt. Worse yet, they're the epitome of casual players, with NO tech skill and just fundamentals...it's crushing losing to them despite researching and practicing so hard. I wasn't going to ask about it on the boards because I'm afraid of being embarrassed about losing to a character mentioned twice in the MU thread and dismissed as no threat, but when my other friends started having the same issue with mains covering most of the rest of the roster, I figured it was about time I asked for some help/advice.

I would be open to offering videos or netplay so you could help point things out that I'm doing wrong, but my computer isn't very powerful. (I can only get my Melee emulated at 35fps right now...)

 

[Garde Noir]

Short Hop Down-air, combo into Nayru's or Up-smash to Bair. Easier said than done, but that's a starting point

Nayru's also breaks them out of Side-B if it's timed right. That will be your bread and butter, and will make them scared to approach without caution next time. Think of Nayru's as your panic button. Use it when you need them out of your face. It has pretty quick priority, and stops most of the metagame if used right, though easily punishable if used wrong.
Squirtle isn't an easy match-up just because of what you said. But an unversed squirtle will get intimidated by Din's Fire. Use that to stall them for just a second (not to necessarily do something) so you can prep for what's coming.

Another suggestion I have, without going into specifics, is to relax. I think, just by the way you're talking about it, that you get scared by Squirtles. You aren't playing a Squirtle, you're playing the person next to you, and they have flaws, they have habits, and they fall back on the same things every time. You need to be able to see those and exploit that, not worry about what they'll inevitably do. Side B for Squirtle is about as common as Up-Smash is for Fox. It's going to happen, no sense worrying about it. Look and study what the player does when they miss, do they jump, do they reverse, do they go into another attack? What do they tend to do and how do you exploit it? One of the Squirtles I used to play, when missing, would always Jump and try and Up-B. I learned the spacing pretty well (can't claim to do it anymore) and timed my lightning kick. Even if I didn't always hit the sweetspot, the intimidation to them that I could do that had them try techniques they weren't comfortable with, and that was their downfall.

Remember, Nayru's. And maybe for you, you pick up a character that defeats Squirtle as a secondary. I did that for Link (Sheik), Fox (Pikachu, though I've learned the MU now), and Lucas (Kirby)

 

[ShadowGanon]

I've got this really complicated solution, but it should work. It's an advanced technique that a lot of people don't take advantage of it.

Spoiler

LOL. Such sarcasm. But, as long as you're not Ganondorf (who has the worst grab range in the world), shield grab the crud out of them. It takes some good reflexes, but it works.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Bait them with a dash dance then dash attack them out of it.

 

[ECHOnce]

Short Hop Down-air, combo into Nayru's or Up-smash to Bair. Easier said than done, but that's a starting point

Nayru's also breaks them out of Side-B if it's timed right. That will be your bread and butter, and will make them scared to approach without caution next time. Think of Nayru's as your panic button. Use it when you need them out of your face. It has pretty quick priority, and stops most of the metagame if used right, though easily punishable if used wrong.
Squirtle isn't an easy match-up just because of what you said. But an unversed squirtle will get intimidated by Din's Fire. Use that to stall them for just a second (not to necessarily do something) so you can prep for what's coming.

Another suggestion I have, without going into specifics, is to relax. I think, just by the way you're talking about it, that you get scared by Squirtles. You aren't playing a Squirtle, you're playing the person next to you, and they have flaws, they have habits, and they fall back on the same things every time. You need to be able to see those and exploit that, not worry about what they'll inevitably do. Side B for Squirtle is about as common as Up-Smash is for Fox. It's going to happen, no sense worrying about it. Look and study what the player does when they miss, do they jump, do they reverse, do they go into another attack? What do they tend to do and how do you exploit it? One of the Squirtles I used to play, when missing, would always Jump and try and Up-B. I learned the spacing pretty well (can't claim to do it anymore) and timed my lightning kick. Even if I didn't always hit the sweetspot, the intimidation to them that I could do that had them try techniques they weren't comfortable with, and that was their downfall.

Remember, Nayru's. And maybe for you, you pick up a character that defeats Squirtle as a secondary. I did that for Link (Sheik), Fox (Pikachu, though I've learned the MU now), and Lucas (Kirby)

Thanks for the pep talk and suggestions, I needed some. Concerning the timing for Naryu's, should I be trying to hit them when they're closer or further away? I'm assuming the former due to the initial invincibility frames, right?

I've got this really complicated solution, but it should work. It's an advanced technique that a lot of people don't take advantage of it.

Spoiler

View attachment 11981

LOL. Such sarcasm. But, as long as you're not Ganondorf (who has the worst grab range in the world), shield grab the crud out of them. It takes some good reflexes, but it works.

You're right. They work, but at close distance the super armor attacks are hard to catch if they bust one out. That's not an excuse though. I'll just grind some more out until I get used to Zelda's slow grabby grabbies.

Bait them with a dash dance then dash attack them out of it.

.____. Zelda's dash dance is usable...? And dash attacks out of dash dancing can be baited and punished easily, especially with Zeldas slow one. (+lower priority)

 

[Garde Noir]

Thanks for the pep talk and suggestions, I needed some. Concerning the timing for Naryu's, should I be trying to hit them when they're closer or further away? I'm assuming the former due to the initial invincibility frames, right?


You're right. They work, but at close distance the super armor attacks are hard to catch if they bust one out. That's not an excuse though. I'll just grind some more out until I get used to Zelda's slow grabby grabbies.


.____. Zelda's dash dance is usable...? And dash attacks out of dash dancing can be baited and punished easily, especially with Zeldas slow one. (+lower priority)

Either. Farther away has higher knockback, closer has invincibility frames. I usually just try and hit it, and then deal with whatever comes. The momentum is now in your favor.

 

[Pika_thunder]

OMG! Zelda's dash dance is like 3rd best in the game! It's huge!

Edit: it's also really hard to punish if you execute and space attacks correctly

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Short Hop Down-air, combo into Nayru's or Up-smash to Bair. Easier said than done, but that's a starting point

Nayru's also breaks them out of Side-B if it's timed right. That will be your bread and butter, and will make them scared to approach without caution next time. Think of Nayru's as your panic button. Use it when you need them out of your face. It has pretty quick priority, and stops most of the metagame if used right, though easily punishable if used wrong.
Squirtle isn't an easy match-up just because of what you said. But an unversed squirtle will get intimidated by Din's Fire. Use that to stall them for just a second (not to necessarily do something) so you can prep for what's coming.

Another suggestion I have, without going into specifics, is to relax. I think, just by the way you're talking about it, that you get scared by Squirtles. You aren't playing a Squirtle, you're playing the person next to you, and they have flaws, they have habits, and they fall back on the same things every time. You need to be able to see those and exploit that, not worry about what they'll inevitably do. Side B for Squirtle is about as common as Up-Smash is for Fox. It's going to happen, no sense worrying about it. Look and study what the player does when they miss, do they jump, do they reverse, do they go into another attack? What do they tend to do and how do you exploit it? One of the Squirtles I used to play, when missing, would always Jump and try and Up-B. I learned the spacing pretty well (can't claim to do it anymore) and timed my lightning kick. Even if I didn't always hit the sweetspot, the intimidation to them that I could do that had them try techniques they weren't comfortable with, and that was their downfall.

Remember, Nayru's. And maybe for you, you pick up a character that defeats Squirtle as a secondary. I did that for Link (Sheik), Fox (Pikachu, though I've learned the MU now), and Lucas (Kirby)

Nayru's will not work against a side b that has it's full momentum going. It will work if you catch them on/near the turn around or perhaps near the startup but once it's got its full momentum it will go right through Nayru's. A din's mine placed on the ground to slow the side b down followed up by Nayru's will also work.

 

[Garde Noir]

Nayru's will not work against a side b that has it's full momentum going. It will work if you catch them on/near the turn around or perhaps near the startup but once it's got its full momentum it will go right through Nayru's. A din's mine placed on the ground to slow the side b down followed up by Nayru's will also work.

My bad. I usually don't let Squirtle's too far away from me, so when I see them pop in I'll Nayru's

 

[Prynne]

I feel all of your pain. I actually have to switch to Sheik for this one. But I kind of want to remain undefeated with Zelda. Nayru's baiting has worked for me, but then I screw it up and get punished for 40% or so. All of this helps immensely, however. Thank you.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Nayru's will not work against a side b that has it's full momentum going. It will work if you catch them on/near the turn around or perhaps near the startup but once it's got its full momentum it will go right through Nayru's. A din's mine placed on the ground to slow the side b down followed up by Nayru's will also work.

A din actually slows them that much?! That's brilliant.

Well my strategy is super defensive. I got knocked out of 2 tournaments by squirtles and just recently beat a squirtle in my last tournament. again...super defensive

I place a din behind me so that when they side+B off my shield they are forced to bounce into the din. With the stun they get usually you can bair them or up-smash if close enough. Take advantage of whatever happens, cuz once you are in offensive then go in.
People say that dash attack works so there is that too, I just...forgot to use it lol

If you are just playing with your friends then just use the strategy whitelightnin said, sounds less defensive and fun( never used it but probably works well). If you are at a tournament, want to win badly, and don't mind being patient then give mine a try

 

[WhiteLightnin]

A din actually slows them that much?! That's brilliant.

Well my strategy is super defensive. I got knocked out of 2 tournaments by squirtles and just recently beat a squirtle in my last tournament. again...super defensive

I place a din behind me so that when they side+B off my shield they are forced to bounce into the din. With the stun they get usually you can bair them or up-smash if close enough. Take advantage of whatever happens, cuz once you are in offensive then go in.
People say that dash attack works so there is that too, I just...forgot to use it lol

If you are just playing with your friends then just use the strategy whitelightnin said, sounds less defensive and fun( never used it but probably works well). If you are at a tournament, want to win badly, and don't mind being patient then give mine a try

Yeah Zelda can actually combo Squirtle pretty well, but you have to catch him first lol. So as you said, when you do hit him with everything you got. lol

 

[Magma Dolphin]

If your biggest problem is actually getting hit by Squirtle's Side-B, you should space in such a way that they will be in shell and ON THE GROUND before they hit you. Zelda's D-Smash will knock him out of it and comes out on frame 4 (I think) making it a very useful option, but it need to be spaced appropriately.
Additionally, while Squirtle can tear right though small dins with Side-B, large dins will catch him. As such, you should cast your dins in large sigmoidal (S-shaped) curves so that they are fully charges and in his path.
I believe Zelda's Up-Tilt has intangibility on her arm, meaning it wont clash with Squirtle's Side-B if he is coming from the air. This should catch him, though I have not tried this option. This will not work on grounded Side-Bs as Squirtle is much to short for Zelda's Upt-Tilt to catch him while in shell. The first two options are your best bet.
-Magma

 

[ECHOnce]

If your biggest problem is actually getting hit by Squirtle's Side-B, you should space in such a way that they will be in shell and ON THE GROUND before they hit you. Zelda's D-Smash will knock him out of it and comes out on frame 4 (I think) making it a very useful option, but it need to be spaced appropriately.
Additionally, while Squirtle can tear right though small dins with Side-B, large dins will catch him. As such, you should cast your dins in large sigmoidal (S-shaped) curves so that they are fully charges and in his path.
I believe Zelda's Up-Tilt has intangibility on her arm, meaning it wont clash with Squirtle's Side-B if he is coming from the air. This should catch him, though I have not tried this option. This will not work on grounded Side-Bs as Squirtle is much to short for Zelda's Upt-Tilt to catch him while in shell. The first two options are your best bet.
-Magma

Squirtles jump out of the shell to hit you when approaching; it's easier to react to his mistakes with shield-grabs/etc. than preemptively attacking while he's still in the side-B shell on the ground and getting punished.

I've tried and D-smash works, sometimes. He gains more priority if he builds up momentum, so I'm assuming that's why Squirtles have occasionally gone right through my D-smash.

I haven't had the opportunity to try this; generally, Squirtles are quick enough to stay fairly close to you if they know what they're doing. By the time you're done curving and laying a Level 3 Din, he'll probably be halfway through a combo on you.

U-tilt does hit him out of side-B, but it's easy to bait out and highly punishable, since it only the bottom hitboxes will connect and it takes years to finish. I've found that the shield-grab/regular grab - the other reactive option you have - is punishable in this way as well (altho not as badly as U-tilt). It's just too easy for them to simply keep turning around right before they get into grab/U-tilt range until your shield has been worn down enough for a shield poke.

Since posting the topic, ive found that the safest ways to deal with his side-B and other super-armor attacks are to either:
(1) Face away and shield. Quickly shield-grab if they go past you for whatever reason. Safer than shielding facing towards them because it removes the risk of getting hit.
(2) Retreat to the ledge, face them, shield, shield-grab. They can't risk a blast-out-of-shell-attack if you're because it'll put them into the helpless falling state.
(3) Just jump away and avoid their blast-out-of-shell-attack range until they run out of time in the Side-B shell. Platforms make it almost funny. Punish them whenever they decide to come out.

If in (1) or (2) they start waiting for your shield to shrink until they get a shield poke opportunity, B-air OOS (now that they're not focusing on immediately attacking) or just jump away OOS and do (3). Up-B OOS to escape can work if they're further away and you're willing to risk it.

Generally...if your character doesn't have disjointed hitboxes or super-armor, it's easiest to just shield or retreat from any of Squirtle's approaches and then punish, rather than trying to make setups or use any defensive attacks like U-tilt. Excluding MUs that Squirtle is just plain bad at (in case you don't have any as a main), Sheik and other faster characters might make the above strategies easier since they have less punishable/quicker grabs and retreats, and/or larger shields (Zelda's is sorta small). Learning to always tilt the shield (idk the terminology for this) downwards rather than forwards against Squirtles can be useful. I usually play Sheik against Squirtles now.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Here is a video of Zhime fighting TO Joe. Joe goes Squirtle in the second match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx7h8FtJsgI

 

[flying_tortoise]

Here is a video of Zhime fighting TO Joe. Joe goes Squirtle in the second match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx7h8FtJsgI

saw that live

 

[otheusrex]

Squirtle's armor on his side b is knockback resistence, and since one takes more knockback at high percents, it means that dealing damage to squirtle opens up more and more options to stop his side b.

Zelda's Attacks that stop squirtle's side b according to percentage:

• 0% and higher---- Uptilt, critical kicks, Ribbon hit , Dash grab, Pivot Grab, shield grab(if they cross you up), Fsmash (the big last hit, so time it well), Dins explosions, grounded nayru (use invincibility so he crosses up, and he'll often try to turn around behind to punish but will get caught in nayru), Dair sweet spot
• 21% and higher----- Dash Attack
• 34% and higher----- Dsmash
• 78% and higher----- Din's fire

Note that many of these attacks require a read and good timing to land successfully; I'd recommend taking squirtle to larger stages so you can have more distance to react to his approaches. At higher percents against squirtle, I always try to be standing near a dins fire on the ground because if he runs into it with side b, it's a free punish

 

[ShadowGanon]

Squirtle's armor on his side b is knockback resistence, and since one takes more knockback at high percents, it means that dealing damage to squirtle opens up more and more options to stop his side b.

Zelda's Attacks that stop squirtle's side b according to percentage:

• 0% and higher---- Uptilt, critical kicks, Ribbon hit , Dash grab, Pivot Grab, shield grab(if they cross you up), Fsmash (the big last hit, so time it well), Dins explosions, grounded nayru (use invincibility so he crosses up, and he'll often try to turn around behind to punish but will get caught in nayru), Dair sweet spot
• 21% and higher----- Dash Attack
• 34% and higher----- Dsmash
• 78% and higher----- Din's fire

Note that many of these attacks require a read and good timing to land successfully; I'd recommend taking squirtle to larger stages so you can have more distance to react to his approaches. At higher percents against squirtle, I always try to be standing near a dins fire on the ground because if he runs into it with side b, it's a free punish

The ribbon hit as in the first hit of teleport? Really? If that is the case, you guys could just Teleport/Teledash out of shield to hit him out of it AND get a follow up.

 

[otheusrex]

The ribbon hit as in the first hit of teleport? Really? If that is the case, you guys could just Teleport/Teledash out of shield to hit him out of it AND get a follow up.

It's certainly a rewarding way to punish, but the spacing and timing is extremely tight and you'd be at a disadvantage on trade. Still though, people practice mastering powershielding so I don't see why the ribbon hit would be impossible or too impractical to utilize. For it's difficulty, it does have several strengths as punish option. 1) as I noted above, it works at any percent 2) the hitbox comes out on frame 5 and 3) it gives you good options afterwards whether it's continuing pressure, or retreating

 

[Ghirahilda]

I am in love with this thread! I don't know why, but I'm having trouble with a Squirtle player too! AND ONLY WITH ZELDA! I'm trying hard to make a great strategy against him! So, Din's fire to slow the f****ng side B, dash dancing, Din's fire behind Zelda too,
Looks like Squirtle it's not the problem, but his Side B with super armor...

 

[WhiteCrow]

Know thine enemy. The Project M sub Reddit is discussing Squirtle this weak and there is loads of information on it about how Squirtle moves, how he wants to approach, and what he struggles against. I have posted my analysis of the matchup at length there and all I really have to say for this thread is keep Squirtle off stage when you can and know his approaches when he's on stage. Din's Fire lets us limit his options in both situations and are by no means useless in this matchup. If you're facing a Squirtle who over commits to removing your traps, punish him. If you see a Squirtle who likes to wall cling during recovery start putting traps there. Learn to read their habits and abuse them, that's really all we can do when we can't approach safely. Also, @ ShadowGanon , as much as I would love to shield grab side b, Zelda's grabs don't actually reach low enough to grab him (standing, dashing or pivoting). You can shield grab him when he opts for an attack out of side b but then you're timing your shield grab (frame 9) against whatever aerial he chooses to use.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Know thine enemy. The Project M sub Reddit is discussing Squirtle this weak and there is loads of information on it about how Squirtle moves, how he wants to approach, and what he struggles against. I have posted my analysis of the matchup at length there and all I really have to say for this thread is keep Squirtle off stage when you can and know his approaches when he's on stage. Din's Fire lets us limit his options in both situations and are by no means useless in this matchup. If you're facing a Squirtle who over commits to removing your traps, punish him. If you see a Squirtle who likes to wall cling during recovery start putting traps there. Learn to read their habits and abuse them, that's really all we can do when we can't approach safely. Also, @ ShadowGanon , as much as I would love to shield grab side b, Zelda's grabs don't actually reach low enough to grab him (standing, dashing or pivoting). You can shield grab him when he opts for an attack out of side b but then you're timing your shield grab (frame 9) against whatever aerial he chooses to use.

Standing grabs will not work but I believe a pivot grab that is spaced and timed correctly can catch him. I am positive that dash grabs can grab him.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Standing grabs will not work but I believe a pivot grab that is spaced and time correctly can catch him. I am positive that dash grabs can grab him.

Out of side b? Huh, my bad. Those are still unusable options OoS which was my point.

 

[Pure Royalty]

i had similar problems with my friend. squirtles side b can be crouch canceled and that will stop their main approach. just relax, play smart. personally i feel knowing the player is more important than the match up. youve beaten them before and you face them regularly, you know how they like to play, use that and apply it to squirtle. (which way they tend to DI, Tech, etc...)

 

[Kaeldiar]

This is by far Zelda's hardest MU, and imo one of the hardest MUs for ANYONE in this game. I think Pure Royalty said it best when he said to play the player. Squirtle has lots of mix-ups and similar looking approaches that give Zelda a LOT of difficulty, so take note of what approaches he likes to use, how he likes to follow up on combos, and how he likes to recover and edgeguard. It is beyond frustrating, and the only way I can beat the Squirtle in my area is by playing him a bunch until I can get some hard reads.

 

[internetmovieguy]

So you guys have no problem against sonic?

 

[Pure Royalty]

i havent faced a good sonic yet, so im not sure

 

[flying_tortoise]

So you guys have no problem against sonic?

be sure to ask that here in the Match Up thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-balance-and-mu-learning.346283/page-13
Brother is the 2nd or 3rd best sonic in socal and I play him all the time. I'll try to help you out in the other thread

 

[internetmovieguy]

be sure to ask that here in the Match Up thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-balance-and-mu-learning.346283/page-13
Brother is the 2nd or 3rd best sonic in socal and I play him all the time. I'll try to help you out in the other thread

Thanks for the info but i don't play zelda, i was just asking because i usually counter pick sonic against zelda.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Thanks for the info but i don't play zelda, i was just asking because i usually counter pick sonic against zelda.

ahhhhhh kk. well still go to that thread asking for help with your sonic against zelda

 

[Kaeldiar]

So you guys have no problem against sonic?

Sonic is a tough one as well, but manageable. Sonic has HORRIBLE priority, so you just have to out-space him. Easier said than done, but you have a feasible gameplan

 

[Pure Royalty]

zelda's side taunt hits sonic out of his neutral b. thought it was kinda amusing