Legality Specifically Banning Shiek's chainthrow on certain characters

[Hollorock]

I have not worked on making a solid argument for this but I thought I would bring up the topic to see what the community thinks.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik_(SSBM) "She generally has a large advantage against characters whom she can 0-death with her down throw chaingrab, including Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Link,Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Pichu, Pikachu, Roy, Sheik, Yoshi and Young Link, "
Wow.
This chaingrab is easier to setup against them than a wobble, is easy to perform, and leads to a 0-deaths in multiple matchups. That definitely sounds like it constitutes being OP enough for character specific bans to me. Why hasn't this already been done?
I would like to see if we can ban this chaingrab against those 0-death characters and against characters where this does a sizable chunk of damage.

 

[Stride]

The down throw chaingrabs don't break the game or degenerate it enough to be ban-worthy. Apart from stages and items, very little is actually banned in Melee; the things that are either "prevent the players from playing the game" in some serious way (the freeze glitch, Luigi ladder stalling), or are extremely inappropriate for a serious skill-based competition (items, most stages). Things that are just really good don't need to be banned, even if they're so good as to be "unfair".

Deciding which characters to ban using the chaingrab against is subjective and arbitrary, as is banning only Sheik's chaingrabs and not those of other characters.

Even without the chaingrab she still destroys most of those characters (see PAL, where she not only lacks the chaingrab but is substantially worse in other ways and yet still hard counters pretty much every low and mid tier). Likewise, there are other characters with chaingrabs that still lose really badly against the characters they can chaingrab.

Also, the effectiveness of Sheik's chaingrab is exaggerated. It's not a 0-to-death or even necessarily particularly long on several of the characters you listed (possibly most of them; I don't know specifically), most of which are bad and therefore practically irrelevant regardless (and banning Sheik's chaingrab will do next to nothing to make them viable), and it's also not as easy or guaranteed as people make it out to be (with things like ambiguous or difficult to cover DI, or DIing towards platforms or the ledge).

If you're going to compare it to Wobbling, then Sheiks chaingrab allows meaningful interaction from the opponent once they're grabbed, while Wobbling doesn't (which is one of the main reasons people want it banned); note that Wobbling is banned at very few tournaments in general and at no majors (that I know of).

 

[Tid]

I kind of don't really want anything in the game to be banned (outside of things that make it literally unplayable like the freeze and soul stunner glitches) on principle. I think it's a much more accessible and clutter-free experience for players if we can just pick whatever character and do whatever as them. There's also the argument that we're not actually seeing CGing sheiks or wobbling ICs dominating top 8s or sweeping up every major, so there's no real benefit to be had from banning them.

 

[Coze]

To be fair Luigi, Marth, Fox and other characters can all chain grab, there is also counterplay to it. You can't ban a mechanic that is a huge part of the game.

 

[SAUS]

We should ban it. It's too cheap.

 

[AirFair]

We should ban it. It's too cheap.

lmaooo I feel you

I don't think it should be banned, because it's not unavoidable and can be escaped from.

 

[-ACE-]

To my knowledge, sheik cannot regrab Ganon's DI away till 8%. DI away is safe 0-7%

 

[Sutekh]

We should ban it. It's too cheap.

Lol, spoken like a man that has a dog in this fight XD.

 

[TuukkaTime]

As someone that mains a low tier that gets destroyed by this, I don't think this is necessary. I know it's essentially like an OP form of wobbling, but I've just learned to accept it and instead opted to get a secondary to deal with it. I mean in all fairness even top tiers have to deal with one-sided matchups (although none as broken as Sheik vs. low tiers) that require a secondary.

 

[Mastodon]

While we are on the subject, can someone explain to me the logistics behind sheik's chain throw in sheik dittos? I know its not technically banned, but I hear a lot of players just agree to not do it because its hella lame, but I've seen a clip somewhere of druggedfox vs. someone and he accidentally starts the chain throw and they had to stop the match. What is the deal with this?

 

[Sutekh]

While we are on the subject, can someone explain to me the logistics behind sheik's chain throw in sheik dittos? I know its not technically banned, but I hear a lot of players just agree to not do it because its hella lame, but I've seen a clip somewhere of druggedfox vs. someone and he accidentally starts the chain throw and they had to stop the match. What is the deal with this?

It's usually just referred to as a gentlemen's agreement, where both players, before the match starts, promise not to use the chaingrab in the set. Legally there's nothing keeping one player from doing it, but it would just be douchey to do it when you're behind after you both agreed not to. Sometimes if a person does it on accident they'll forfeit a stock to make up for it, but not always.

 

[-ACE-]

Chaingrabbing is part of the game imo.

I kinda feel like some people get mad at chaingrabbing/wobbling because their opponent isn't high level and it makes them salty. Top sheiks can kill you off one grab without chaingrabbing, but people expect that, so they don't get mad. But when a mid-level sheik grabs them and gets a KO they're livid lol.

If it gets bad enough, sheik ditto her, learn IC's, learn fox, or actually try to master the matchup for once. Every sheik is beatable.

 

[Dolla Pills]

If you play a low tier character you're signing up for a struggle.

 

[Pip_Puff]

can I ban fox's up smashes too?

When you play the ice climbers don't get grabbed, when you play puff don't get rested, when you play peach do not crouch cancel,

All top tiers have their advantages.

 

[Tid]

it's also really lame and annoying to try and define. do you count it as chain grabbing if they're at higher percents and you use an aerial or a tilt to link the grabs together? what if it's just tech chasing?
you should just be allowed to do what your character can do. if you don't like it pick up the character yourself or learn to avoid it.

 

[Synnett]

If Bowser try to DI back, Sheik will grab him fom her back. It's so awfully broken on Bowser you can't imagine. I have to be lucky to get out of it.

But I don't want to start banning everything either.

 

[Sieghart]

I don't see the point. Even if you banned the chain grab low-tiers would still be garbage against everyone that isn't Sheik and would thus not move up on the tier list at all. The Sheik matchup wouldn't even be much better seeing as she'd still body everyone this is supposed to help.

 

[Twinkles]

If you're going to ban Sheik's chaingrabs, we may as well just ban Fox as an entire character

 

[-ACE-]

Buy a PAL disc LOL

 

[Spak]

While we are on the subject, can someone explain to me the logistics behind sheik's chain throw in sheik dittos? I know its not technically banned, but I hear a lot of players just agree to not do it because its hella lame, but I've seen a clip somewhere of druggedfox vs. someone and he accidentally starts the chain throw and they had to stop the match. What is the deal with this?

It's because Shiek players can't deal with their own lameness. They're fine chaingrabbing everyone else 24/7, but they don't like it when someone else chaingrabs them. Double standards are wonderful.

 

[-ACE-]

It's because Shiek players can't deal with their own lameness. They're fine chaingrabbing everyone else 24/7, but they don't like it when someone else chaingrabs them. Double standards are wonderful.

That's definitely a big chunk of it. I would always laugh back in the day when ppl would have such a gentleman's agreement for Ganon vs sheik. Regardless of sheik getting grabs MUCH easier, and her cg being easier to perform (notably at super low%), Ganon absolutely needs to be able to cg her. Winning neutral over and over as Ganon just doesn't happen when the players are similarly skilled, and doing so is necessary if you're only getting 1 aerial after a dthrow (sometimes platforms allow for heavy punishes but it's not guaranteed and def not as good as the cg).

 

[Synnett]

If I'd ban something it's Kirby ledge stalling. I mean, I play with someone, he gets salty and then pick Kirby and camp at the ledge. He's not even moving from here, even if I'm just chilling somewhere else. I want to play geez, he's not even trying to hit me, just to suck me down the hole. Bowser's too big and too slow, he can't do anything. So I get mad and they're like "hon hon salty"
/rant

Yes Sheik's chainthrow is cheap, but that's the game. And you can get out of it, unlike wobbles. I mainly adds pressure to approach. I mean, at least they're trying to hit you, unlike Kirby's ledge stall.

 

[Spasmodic]

I get where you're coming from, but I really think it's a bad idea. The chaingrab can 0-death, but only in capable hands. Mainly, I think that a ban this big would segment the community. The metaknight ban back in brawl wrecked what little of a community the game had. I think that banning the chaingrab would have a similar (but much much smaller) effect on the melee community. So much of the fun of this game is finding new ways to exploit it. The chaingrab is just a successful example.

 

[HermitHelmet]

As someone said earlier, move to EU if you want to play a low tier dude

and it's your fault for playing a character that sucks, if you play melee ness, you deserve to be chaingrabbed as much as you do to get your garbage recovery shinespiked at 0