Specific Characters Match-up: Pikachu vs Ness

[Felth]

I know that there's a Matchup Thread. But I don't like that the information is spread among different pages because the discussion can be changed to different characters and that could be a little messy. To avoid this, I suggest the following idea: one post for each character. Following some general points I'll organize all the post in a very simple way.

I propose to study in this post the Ness MU. If you want to discuss other Matchup and you liked my idea just write a post following this idea. Suggestions of any type are welcome (I'm not an expert of Smash so it's probably that you know more than me about this).

Ness:

• Neutral Game:

• Stage selection and Ban:

• Specific Situations:
  • Ground - Ground:
  • Ground - Air:
  • Air - Air:
  • Off Stage:
  • Some situation to punish or to look (Situations that are advantageous to pikachu vs this character)
  • Situations to avoid?

Extra information:
​

• I don't want to lose all the information that the community has discovered at this point. Most of this theory it's in the MU Thread.

• You can read the document made by the User Umbreoff which summarizes the previous post. Click here to see the document. I'm transcribing this document into a pdf version with access to new options. If you want to check the progress of this document I'll invite you to see the PDF Online Version.

• With respect to the Killing Section: add Good Set-ups to perform the killing (not just the final attack). Set-ups performed in specific Stages are also welcome.

• With respect to the Stage Selection Section: we should discuss what stages to avoid and what stages are good for Pikachu. The Smash Player Esam made a Depth Analysis on each Stage. Recall that some stages could be good for Pikachu but are even better for other character that's the reason for why we should discuss this kind of things here (one example is Halberd: IMO is good for Pikachu but not against Meta Knight).

• With respect to the Difficulty Section we should discuss how difficult is this MU for Pikachu. If it's possible it would be good to associate a measure to this difficulty. I think that this section should be completed once we developed a lot of theory in the corresponding MU, otherwise is just speculation.

• With respect to the Specific Situations Section we should discuss what to do in both scenarios.

 

[AcePikachu]

Ness can be a real pain, but he needs specific moves go hit to do REAL damage, mainly PK Fire, Down throw and Fair.

In the neutral, spacing fairs and nairs with a few PK Fire sprinkled here and there should be the standard. Knowing this, at mid range look out for PK fire, and at close range be VERY careful of the grab!

Perfect sheild the PK fire to immediately run in and punish. As soon as you hear "pk" is best to immediately run in and win the neutral. KEEP NESS IN THE AIR! He is a very floaty character with not many landing options. If you can stay under Ness and be patient for the landing, you should be able to sheild whatever he throws at you and send him back into the air. Be wary of Nair, it's a fast move that can break combos. Sheild and continue the punish.

Because of Ness's not so great landing options most resort to the ledge. Learning how to ledge trump can be godlike here, as most if not ALL Ness's when recovering, aim for the ledge. Time the trump and punish tjere next move.

Finally, Back throw. This thing is Ness's only reliable kill move besides Up Air and Bair. PK fire most of the time will trap you and make you extremely vulnerable to Fsmash or Back Throw. Use the method stated above, or stay out of range to stay in the clear.

Lastly, thunder jolt sparingly. A single thunder jolt can heal over 10% damage. If you think your opponent will attempt to heal, bait out the down b, and punish. Excellent at high percentages, as you can attempt to kill with an Up Smash.

 

[phili]

I honestly think Ness is one of Pikachu's hardest matchups. His aerials mostly beat ours out, and he can kill pikachu at absudly low %'s with backthrow if he has rage. Also, down B kinda ruins uthrow thunder DI reads as he can heal from it. He can also absorb it to ruin our recovery if you choose to DJ thunder offstage. I do have a few matchup points though:

Edgeguarding: I think it is best to pressure ness offstage. From my experience, many ness players like to air dodge, then DJ rising fair to keep themselves safe while aiming for the ledge. Therefore, I like to bait the air dodge, then nair or fair which normally pushes him too far away to recover if you hit him right as he double jumps. Also, pressuring him offstage allows you to be close enough to him to hit him during his up B if he has to use it. Waiting at the ledge is not good because you will often be late and get destroyed by PKT2. Finally, if you can't get offstage in time to safely edgeguard, ledge trumping can be very good.

Recovering: Ness likes to use PKT1 as an edgeguard. This can make it very annoying to get back to the stage. It is very useful to know that you can attack the PKT bolt. Hit the head of it with dair, fair, nair, or uair and it should disappear, giving you time to recover.

I don't have any tips for approaching, neutral, or kill options other than edgeguards that are Ness specific, so hopefully other players can help us out.

 

[EhMon]

Ness really doesn't have an answer for proper QA pressure. So long as you don't get too predictable and run into PK fire or nair, you're golden.

This can knock him up in the air, which really is the name of the game; the optimal punishes are ones that put him in the air or off the stage. He sort of has uair as a landing option, but it is super punishable.

On the ground most Ness players I've come across try to go for that grab, so the standard dtilt and QA keep away to avoid grabs is huge here.

In the air, his fair does have priority, and his nair OoS is an easy 11% or so...it's good. I've seen tons of grabbing and nair OoS from them, so empty hop to grab (tomahawk) usually proves effective as well once you condition them with having to block SH QA shenanigans.

 

[PKMudkip]

I think this matchup is a 7-3 Ness and Pikachu could get destroyed of you don't know what you're doing. It seems if you all are getting the FG Ness players and Ness mains confused.Ness mains use other kill moves like f-smash d-smash and PKT2. PK Flash could be used to edge guard along with d-smash and u-smash. They have more variety out of down throw and will try to kill as fast as possible. The best way to beat a Ness is to play agressive and get him in the air to juggle as Ness doesn't have many grounding options to use. Ness players normally try to rush in so use that to your advantage. Punish dash attack with d-throw combos or b-throw.

 

[Deleted member]

My playing partner mains Ness. I'm not the most knowledgeable player in the world, but I feel I have a lot to add here. Doing a writeup tomorrow when I have more time.

 

[Methacrylate]

I have found that when Ness is recovering to the stage with up b, if he is coming in from afar and low to the ledge, double jump and shoot a thunder jolt to intercept the trajectory of the up b. If done correctly the thunder jolt should intercept Ness early in his flight and halve the distance of the recovery preventing Ness from making it back. If the thunder jolt hits late in his flight then the thunder jolt beats the b up and there is no clank.

 

[The_Devious]

This is not my work, but this is the 271st post of the pikachu matchup thread, posted by esam. I salvaged this so this useful information is not lost.

Synopsis: Ness is pretty annoying if he is in the air and facing you. That's about it. Grabs are good for him as well, but Pika's grabs are equally as good. Pika excels in EVERY other aspect of the MU, especially edgeguarding.

Ground-Ground: IMO pikachu's favor. Both of us get a lot off of a grab, but Pika d-tilt >>>>>>>>>>>. Dtilt starts a lot of pressure. If you d-tilt and he attempts to stay out of range and PKFire, you can shield. Be cognizant of pk-fire spacing because you will take a LOT of damage if it hits. However, you can punish every PK Fire unless you suck. QA breaks the neutral game REALLY hard and it starts like EVERYTHING

Ground-Air: Honestly I think Pikachu wins both incarnates of this. When Ness is in the air all you have to do is shield and he can't really do much. You can punish all of his aerials on shield which is super free and he doesn't really have a lot of mix-ups. You can also run under him and get uairs that would beat out most aerials besides nair. You can be patient and it's pretty easy. Ness doesn't really get a lot when he's on the ground so he will want to go in the air a lot, and it isn't really problematic.

When Pika is in the air, you can essentially maneuver around ness really well. Landing fair and bair are pretty devastating. Nair is also really good rising as is fair, but Ness can punish that so you have to do risk/reward. A lot of cross-ups are really good as it makes it harder to punish for Ness.

Offstage Pika >> Ness. T-jolt manipulation, bair fastfalls, fair to keep them off, thunder if they go high or don't have a DJ. All the good stuff.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

This is not my work, but this is the 271st post of the pikachu matchup thread, posted by esam. I salvaged this so this useful information is not lost.

Synopsis: Ness is pretty annoying if he is in the air and facing you. That's about it. Grabs are good for him as well, but Pika's grabs are equally as good. Pika excels in EVERY other aspect of the MU, especially edgeguarding.

Ground-Ground: IMO pikachu's favor. Both of us get a lot off of a grab, but Pika d-tilt >>>>>>>>>>>. Dtilt starts a lot of pressure. If you d-tilt and he attempts to stay out of range and PKFire, you can shield. Be cognizant of pk-fire spacing because you will take a LOT of damage if it hits. However, you can punish every PK Fire unless you suck. QA breaks the neutral game REALLY hard and it starts like EVERYTHING

Ground-Air: Honestly I think Pikachu wins both incarnates of this. When Ness is in the air all you have to do is shield and he can't really do much. You can punish all of his aerials on shield which is super free and he doesn't really have a lot of mix-ups. You can also run under him and get uairs that would beat out most aerials besides nair. You can be patient and it's pretty easy. Ness doesn't really get a lot when he's on the ground so he will want to go in the air a lot, and it isn't really problematic.

When Pika is in the air, you can essentially maneuver around ness really well. Landing fair and bair are pretty devastating. Nair is also really good rising as is fair, but Ness can punish that so you have to do risk/reward. A lot of cross-ups are really good as it makes it harder to punish for Ness.

Offstage Pika >> Ness. T-jolt manipulation, bair fastfalls, fair to keep them off, thunder if they go high or don't have a DJ. All the good stuff.

Yet I'm sure from the videos I saw of him against shaky, he didn't prove this theory well...

 

[Mint (Aus)]

Being a higher level ness main who has played against a near equally high level pikachu player, I feel like the matchup is 60 - 40 in Ness' favour, but also could potentially be 55 - 45 to be honest. If both players know what they're doing it depends on how the match is played out and how the habits of each player come out during air and ground fighting. In my opinion, both characters have a lot of the tools needed to win the match, it's just up to whether or not the player can exploit the weaknesses. Ness' tools may slightly be in favour of taking the match over a pikachu but honestly if they're equally matched, it can be anyone's game. Just make sure to add variety to your gameplay, try to exploit other player's bad habits and go for guaranteed combos to rack up damage, maybe even some hard reads here and there. (i know i'm a bit late to the party, but may as well keep the thread active with my 2 cents worth)