Some questions for the community

[DE235]

I have been spectating smash ever since I saw the videos of that Brawl DK player in that Buster Kong outfit in those youtube videos all those years ago(aprox. 2009-10) I have since always been interested in watching smash as a competitive game. I chalk it up to the fact that the game has characters that I like and have grown up with with, good gameplay, and the community itself. Smash 4 has come a long way in the last year and I want to get some info from you guys by asking these questions.

1. What is the best part of watching this game?

2. What makes this game unique to other games in this series?

3. Do you think this game as it is now is balanced enough that a variety of characters will be seen through out its competitive live span?

4. What problems do you have with the game or its community?

5. Does 3DS have a place in the future of the this game? Should it have a future

6. How can get better than we are now?

Answer anyone you like and ask me any questions if you have any. I think this game will be around for a while and that it could potentially get even more technical that it is now ( maybe even more than the others) but I don't know I can't predict the future. Also I really think we should consider 3DS for competitive. Sorry if this post is inappropriate for this section of the forum but I wanted the opinion of the people that would visit this thread.

 

[Raijinken]

1) Seeing unusual character picks or customs played skillfully. My opinion, obviously.
2) Character variety, lack of high emphasis on advanced techniques.
3) I'm always a fan of continued balance patching. Call me a spoiled PC gamer.
4) With the game? Few if any, might not complain of a bit more shieldstun. With its community? Widespread hatred of customs, narrow stage legality, general (if less widespread) dislike of balance patching, the list goes on.
5) In a general sense, for sure, it's a great way for players without a U to play. Competitively? Not so much, save as a transfer option for custom moves, and a controller option for those who wish it. Unfortunately, lag issues even with its own local matches will prevent it from catching on as a widespread competitive choice now that the console version is out.
6) Play more, adapt more, introduce more variables to the matches (add or emphasize customs, stage variety, and team battles, for instance).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1. I don't do much watching via streams, but when I'm at the events personally, I love watching players I've met or fought previously fighting their heart out. Even low level play has some tense moments when the players are equal.

2. Character variety, but that's not a very intuitive answer. Of course the latest game has a lot of characters we haven't seen. But what I really mean is seeing the unique character strategies of Mega Man, Shulk, Yoshi, Robin, etc. Even veterans like Fox, Bowser, Luigi, ZSS, they all have extremely different options then they did in previous games. So everybody feels fresh and aren't viable only due to having a shine (Melee) or a chain grab (Brawl), or some other absurd character design choice that invalidates the rest of their options.

3. Yes, and I already mentioned character variety (whoops). Smash 4 will be a frustrating game to build a tier list for. Not only are there not enough players still representing the (currently) 56 characters, most everybody that isn't Sheik is very clearly within this ocean of mid-tier characters. I've had time to look at a lot, and I struggle immensely with picking theoretical low tiers, because a lot of their issues have been addressed. Samus' multihits connect now, ditto for Zelda and her Phantom is viable, Mii Swordsman is faster and does more damage, Kirby and Falco got all kinds of things, all of Robin's Thunder charges are faster except Thoron, Mar/cina is faster, Mewtwo is faster and his Uair can kill, Shulk has less endlag and more damage, Ike is no longer a worse Bowser, Most (but not all) problematic custom moves have been tweaked, and finally, DK, Bowser, Robin, Link, Villager, and Charizard all have grab games where they previously did not. This is just the big picture stuff. The list continues with smaller buffs across the entire roster. I think the game is extremely more balanced than it was on release, but that's only if we're talking about the literal game, not the players. Which leads me to...

4. I hate to be the guy that demands players change the way they play or who they play. But we still have professional players that don't encourage expirimentation. And I can't blame them for that, because the pros, by definition, have to be concerned with what will let them win and keep winning. The existence of new tech out there is a direct hindrance to their ability to keep winning. We come up with treasure troves of information about underdeveloped characters, strategies, custom moves, options, option selects, frame data, shield data, character attributes and parameters, everything here on Smashboards, but you'd never hear any of it from the mouths of youtubers and twitch streamers with hundreds of thousands of subscribers. This competitive community is rife with misinformation and unfair opinions. We have a few outlets trying to stay the tides of mediocrity in the forms of Beefy Smash Doods and precious other sources, but it's not enough.

5. No, and no. Not in terms of holding 3DS tournaments. The 3DS being used as a controller and a custom moveset distributor both have some potential, as well as some issues that TOs don't want to deal with.

6. Besides my grievances in #4, I'd like to see more local bouts between players. Does the average Smash 4 player know the meaning of "Smashfest"? Sitting in the same room and fighting each other on the same screen is the number one way of improving. And making friends is a massive bonus to getting into competitive fighting games. Obviously, online is more sensible when fighting people around the world, but latency issues and the means of fixing them (tracking down a USB peripheral for the Wii and running an ethernet cable into your room with the Wii U) are a huge wall for players to effectively master their craft. Every piece of frame data I spout means nothing to a player that can't accurately control their guy in an online match. And online fights, particularly in For Glory, don't leave the player feeling encouraged after a victory or a loss, as there is no feedback from the other player. I can't tell you how much it meant when I was told my Roy was getting better when I used to be a scrub at Melee. Social interaction makes you feel good about spending hours getting good at this game. So if this community could focus more on the "community" aspect, that would make me happy.

 

[DE235]

1. I don't do much watching via streams, but when I'm at the events personally, I love watching players I've met or fought previously fighting their heart out. Even low level play has some tense moments when the players are equal.

2. Character variety, but that's not a very intuitive answer. Of course the latest game has a lot of characters we haven't seen. But what I really mean is seeing the unique character strategies of Mega Man, Shulk, Yoshi, Robin, etc. Even veterans like Fox, Bowser, Luigi, ZSS, they all have extremely different options then they did in previous games. So everybody feels fresh and aren't viable only due to having a shine (Melee) or a chain grab (Brawl), or some other absurd character design choice that invalidates the rest of their options.

3. Yes, and I already mentioned character variety (whoops). Smash 4 will be a frustrating game to build a tier list for. Not only are there not enough players still representing the (currently) 56 characters, most everybody that isn't Sheik is very clearly within this ocean of mid-tier characters. I've had time to look at a lot, and I struggle immensely with picking theoretical low tiers, because a lot of their issues have been addressed. Samus' multihits connect now, ditto for Zelda and her Phantom is viable, Mii Swordsman is faster and does more damage, Kirby and Falco got all kinds of things, all of Robin's Thunder charges are faster except Thoron, Mar/cina is faster, Mewtwo is faster and his Uair can kill, Shulk has less endlag and more damage, Ike is no longer a worse Bowser, Most (but not all) problematic custom moves have been tweaked, and finally, DK, Bowser, Robin, Link, Villager, and Charizard all have grab games where they previously did not. This is just the big picture stuff. The list continues with smaller buffs across the entire roster. I think the game is extremely more balanced than it was on release, but that's only if we're talking about the literal game, not the players. Which leads me to...

4. I hate to be the guy that demands players change the way they play or who they play. But we still have professional players that don't encourage expirimentation. And I can't blame them for that, because the pros, by definition, have to be concerned with what will let them win and keep winning. The existence of new tech out there is a direct hindrance to their ability to keep winning. We come up with treasure troves of information about underdeveloped characters, strategies, custom moves, options, option selects, frame data, shield data, character attributes and parameters, everything here on Smashboards, but you'd never hear any of it from the mouths of youtubers and twitch streamers with hundreds of thousands of subscribers. This competitive community is rife with misinformation and unfair opinions. We have a few outlets trying to stay the tides of mediocrity in the forms of Beefy Smash Doods and precious other sources, but it's not enough.

5. No, and no. Not in terms of holding 3DS tournaments. The 3DS being used as a controller and a custom moveset distributor both have some potential, as well as some issues that TOs don't want to deal with.

6. Besides my grievances in #4, I'd like to see more local bouts between players. Does the average Smash 4 player know the meaning of "Smashfest"? Sitting in the same room and fighting each other on the same screen is the number one way of improving. And making friends is a massive bonus to getting into competitive fighting games. Obviously, online is more sensible when fighting people around the world, but latency issues and the means of fixing them (tracking down a USB peripheral for the Wii and running an ethernet cable into your room with the Wii U) are a huge wall for players to effectively master their craft. Every piece of frame data I spout means nothing to a player that can't accurately control their guy in an online match. And online fights, particularly in For Glory, don't leave the player feeling encouraged after a victory or a loss, as there is no feedback from the other player. I can't tell you how much it meant when I was told my Roy was getting better when I used to be a scrub at Melee. Social interaction makes you feel good about spending hours getting good at this game. So if this community could focus more on the "community" aspect, that would make me happy.

Thanks for the lengthy response I love reading those. I feel like we don't see the top talk about all the technical stuff in this game beside the guys at one smash on tourney locator.

 

[deepseadiva]

1. What is the best part of watching this game?

Top 32 during nationals. High enough to be very high quality players, but large enough to feature significant character variety. Watching a crazy mid-tier main get far is pure glory.

2. What makes this game unique to other games in this series?

There are 3 distinct game styles in the series: 64/Melee/Brawl. Smash 4 is a Brawl iteration and the reason to play it is because of the new character roster. Balance updates. But basically because it's the lastest one.

3. Do you think this game as it is now is balanced enough that a variety of characters will be seen through out its competitive live span?

Can always be better.

4. What problems do you have with the game or its community?

Rules are made up at random.

5. Does 3DS have a place in the future of the this game? Should it have a future

No why play anything but the console version.

6. How can get better than we are now?

The game is doomed. Either Smash 5 is Brawl 3, in which case everyone takes a step forward and drops this one when it's released, or it's a different style Smash in which case thank god because the Brawl style is absolutely the worst version.

Until then we can only play and have as many tournaments as possible ^^

 

[wizrad]

1. Watching the skill cap increase. Look at Apex. Now, visit your local tournament. They're almost at the same level now. Finally, watch the grand finals some big tournament. It looks like a completely different game.

2. Speed with simplicity. 64 and Brawl are slow, Melee is too technical to be relaxing. Smash 4 is the best of both worlds. Also, it's just the highest quality game of the series. 64 was an experiment, Melee was rushed and filled with exploits, Brawl's development focused on SSE and ended up no better than Melee with its bugs, Smash 4 was released in good standing and has only gotten better with patches.

3. Character balance still needs improvement. There's a reason why Sheik and ZSS dominate.

4. The lack of serious competitive logic in ruleset construction. "Miis are banned." Why? "I don't want Miis to be legal."

5. Meh. We play Super Smash Brothers for Nintendo Wii U. That doesn't involve a 3DS. But I don't know, they could be useful for customs and Miis, and I'd let them be used as controllers because some people just don't have a Wii U.

6. We need to become less volatile. This community has a lot of infighting. Just look at what the general public thinks of us. We can't grow if we're perceived as immature and unreasonable by even the rest of the FGC.