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Some questions for a new Zelda player

Langston777

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So I recently started playing Zelda, and had a real hard time playing her since i'm used to footsie and rushdown characters, mainly Marth and Kirby. However i'm getting a better feel for her and i'm enjoying myself a lot playing her. i have some questions hopefully someone can answer though.

- How am I supposed to use her specials? I can't imagine hitting anyone who isn't braindead with SideB and DownB. they're way too slow and personally, i think zelda has better followups than throwing those moves out. NeutralB seems like it has great defensive properties but i don't fully understand it's use. it's got a weird hitbox.

- How does Zelda typically fair against projectile based characters like Link or Megaman? I ask this because I'm not good with using projectiles myself, and even playing as Zelda I find myself always forcing the approach and closing a gap. However, my main and sub struggle hard against projectiles, so if Zelda turns out to be a good counterpick that would be lovely. My approach game mainly consists of 50/50 dash attack or run-up shieldgrabbing though, because i don't see anything else Zelda has for reliable approaches.

- any edgegaurding game? dair seems nice.
 

cwjakesteel

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Side B is good for edge guarding. Usually your oponent will simply air dodge out of it, but you can change the velocity of the fire to trick them up. I haven't found much use for Down B but I think it has potential. It can absorb damage, and it's a physical barrier between you and your opponent but I haven't really tested it out.

Zelda can reflect projectiles with neutral B. Side B and Up B can break your enemies who like to sit their and charge their projectiles. Doing side B in the air also makes you float, so you can float over Mega-man's shots while you can pressure him with Din's fire.

I don't find Zelda very reliable as an aggressor off the edge. But side-air all the way if you can make it.
 

Zylach

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Welcome new Zelda player!

To answer your first question: Zelda's specials are either amazing or mediocre in this game. You didn't mention upB so I assume you know its general uses. Just remember that it combos into itself and can kill a lot of opponents around 70-80%. As for Din's Fire, this move is usually regarded as useless among most Zelda players. It's a pretty good edgeguarding move to keep a recovering opponent on their toes and can be used as a mix-up on projectile based characters. It's especially useful against characters that like to sit at the edge and charge stuff up like Samus and Robin. Keep taking chip-shots at their shields with Din's and they'll feel the urge to approach you most of the time. Do not overuse Din's though as, again, it really isn't that great due to its predictability. Zelda's phantom is still pretty undiscovered territory for Zelda users since it's a brand new move and uses newly introduced mechanics such as walling. It's most popular use is for edgeguarding as it will rush out beyond the ledge to catch people that are recovering high and will usually kill them from that far out. However, a smart player will usually discover what you're doing if you constantly use only phantom to edgeguard so mix up phantom, Din's and dair to keep the opponent guessing at what you're doing. Since the opponent ought to be recovering low (because of phantom) this gives you a great opportunity to go for a dair spike. As for Nayru's Love, it's Zelda's best OoS option unless you are looking for a kill, in which Farore's Wind is what you're looking to use OoS. Nayru's has a few frames of invincibility on it so it's relatively safe to use when the opponent unsafely approaches you (especially when the opponent goes for a grab. The invincibility frames mean no grab for them and free damage for you). The other main use is as a reflector but remember to use it sparingly since the endlag can be a hindrance. These aren't her only options OoS obviously. Her shield grab is significantly better in this game than it was in brawl because it's no longer a tether grab so it's a lot faster. Zelda can also string moves together on a dthrow or uthrow now such as nair and uair and even bair or fair if the opponent DI's left or right. Throw strings will probably be your most consistent damage as Zelda next to good reads/punishes.

To answer your second question: Zelda is outcamped by characters like Link/Tink, Samus, and Duck Hunt. Using Nayru's Love against them can help but isn't always the best option since a smart player will usually snuff this strategy out and begin baiting you into using it. One strategy that has helped me a lot against spammy campers is to full hop towards them while charging a phantom, release phantom when you are near the stage (this will block the projectiles the enemy throws at you) and use Din's from behind your new cover. You can also use an uncharged phantom to absorb one small projectile if you need it quickly. What you'll want to keep your eye on is when the opponent uses a laggy projectile move. For example, Robin throws out Arcfires a lot but it has quite a bit of endlag on it. Recognize how many frames of endlag he has and use Farore's Wind while he's vulnerable. Link's/Tink's boomerang as well as Samus' missles and most of DH's projectiles also have quite a bit of endlag which you can exploit with Farore's Wind. Basically, you teleport right behind what they want to use to keep you out, disregarding the camper's strategy altogether and getting a sweet 7-14% or a kill out of it depending on how high they are.

Megaman is a lot trickier because he can throw so many projectiles at you in such a short amount of time. Also, reflecting most of his projectiles won't do you any good because Crash Bomb and Saw Blade will despawn before they even reach him giving him a free punish off of your Nayru's lag. Using Nayru's here is risky so use it sparingly. Farore's is also trickier than the other super campy characters since MM's endlag on his projectiles isn't nearly as significant as the others I've mentioned so work on your timing in punishing his projectiles, you have a shorter window for this in general compared to other campers. The only other camper that should be giving you any significant trouble is Villager because reflecting his Lloid Rocket and slingshot rocks will be useless as they'll either despawn before they reach him or will collide with his tree that he should have up if he's spamming projectiles. The key here is Din's Fire since he can't pocket it and it will go through his tree meaning his cover doesn't actually do him any good typically forcing him to come out from behind his tree and fight you like a man (not to mention, if he cuts it down, you can just reflect it back at him for a very satisfying kill). This MU requires a lot of patience since Villager will always be trying to wall you out with Lloid Rockets and fair/bair. Powershield these while walking towards him to learn his patterns and punish him when he slips up or continues an easily punishable pattern (Ex: SH fair-->SH fair-->SH fair. Farore's Wind at the right time to teach him a lesson). DO NOT USE PHANTOM AGAINST VILLAGER! This is suicide.

To answer your final question, I'll point to my comments on Zelda's specials since they are almost solely edgeguard options with a few exceptions. Zelda's dair is the best meteor smash in the game next to Ganon's so use it. It'll net you kills as early as 20% on some characters (especially Lil' Mac). Also, remember that Zelda has plenty of multihit moves so an opponent trying to get back onto the stage from the ledge should find it pretty difficult since Zelda's fsmash/Nayru's love will do really well against rolls, hops, and plain getups while a jump from the ledge is deadly considering Zelda's bair, fair, and uair are all potent kill moves. Just a note about Phantom here: It can hit an opponent that is hanging on the ledge without invincibility frames when it's fully charged. Basically, when the fully charged phantom stops moving and sticks its sword out, the very tip of the sword should be right above the opponent's head for it to hit them. It's really tricky spacing and situationally useful but can take your foe by surprise.

Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this helps you in using our beloved princess!
 

Langston777

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Well, it was a very helpful wall of text, so thank you. Didn't really consider using phantom for edgegaurding (i don't think I've used the move once yet in an actual fight) but I'll definitely try playing around with it.

that bit about OoS Nayru seems interesting as well, i usually ftilt or grab OoS.

All my damage already comes from dash attacks and grab follow ups. I don't really know how else to wrack up damage, and then I'll just fish for a teleport or fair around 70%. I gotta be honest, I really hate how limiting her approach options feel, i still don't know how defensive i should play her to be successful. Still, i think just mixing dash attack and grab up works well, even if it's a bit boring. sometimes i'll throw out a fair on approach because the shield stun is ridiculously satisfying lol.
 

Zylach

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Zelda lacks approach options. You've basically listed them all in dash and grab. She should be played very defensively because she can be so easily punished when she approaches. If you're looking for a character with great approaching options, you'll probably wanna look elsewhere. Zelda is almost completely focused on reading, baiting, and punishing opponents. As for follow ups, like you said, dash and grab can be followed up. Utilt and dtilt can be followed up as well. Utilt combos into itself at low percents usually only twice but nair can be used to follow up from utilt so: utilt-->utilt-->nair--*possibly*-->fair/bair depending on the opponent's DI and whether or not they are quick with air dodges, double jumps, and the like. Dtilt is your most reliable string starter for kills. You can pop an opponent up into the air for a fair kill around 70-100% depending on the character. They can airdodge pretty quickly afterwards though so, again, bait that airdodge. Baiting is Zelda's best strategy for getting kills. Condition your opponent to expect nair after a dthrow or fair after a nair or dtilt, etc etc and punish air dodges.

Every now and again, like you mentioned, throwing out a fair/bair can be helpful. It keeps the threat of her lightning kicks in the opponent's mind so they'll try and account for it allowing you to utilize your other tools more effectively and it's pretty safe on shield. Not against every character but it's relatively safe. Just make sure to sweetspot it or you're gonna be in a world of hurt lol. I sometimes get in the habit of jumping over an opponent to see what they'll do and, if they sit in shield, I'll continue my momentum until I'm behind them and throw out a bair to see if they drop shield. If they do, good for me, if they don't, good for me. The only problem is if they spotdodge or roll since they both allow for a quick punish (Yeah, roll can allow for a punish on bair's landing lag...).

What I like to do is play a spacing game with Zelda's ftilt, jab, and fsmash. These are all have disjointed hitboxes and are relatively safe to throw out (fsmash is punishable by faster characters though). Also, empty hopping is helpful for Zelda because an opponent throwing out shield expecting an aerial is an easy target for a grab and her grab is her best combo/string starter. You've gotta play with your opponent's head a lot more with Zelda than aggressive pressuring characters so empty hopping, foxtrotting, dash dancing, etc are all especially useful tools for Zelda. Also, she benefits greatly from perfect pivoting and frame cancelling.
 
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