Some perspective and stuff

[RedrappeR]

Hi. You probably don't know me, but I did Street Fighter music and videos and documentary things a while back. Also, the SCR trailers and stuff. You just saw a really early build of your game months before release with the first time anybody has played it. A lot of you think it looks fun. A lot of you think it looks boring and stupid. Here is a video of Street FIghter IV, a while before release.

http://youtu.be/1TIDZVL57vg

If any of you have played this game, the above video looks God awful. Not only from the people playing, but recovery times, the HUD, the way focus attack looks, game and walk speed. Everything. Lets not even compare it to Super Turbo or 3s(of which the latter's community pretty much hated the game ostensibly) Only slight changes were made to very minute things and it became a different game after release. And every update completely changed the game and the way people approached it.

Please calm down, and note that no game will every be 100 percent the way you want it when you play it. Melee was not like that when you first picked it up(Even though you'll argue, sincerely think, did you expect automatic depth with melee or did you find it after a long ****ing slog of hours working the engine.) and this game will not be like that. That's the bad news.

The good news is, unlike the last game, the developers actually would like to listen to you.So if you are constructive with your criticisms there is a good chance they will be fixed. If your cynical and a ****, then you're going to ruin it for everyone else. I'm just saying, you can literally get most of what you want if you just ask properly. That part's not opinion, it's a fact of how life kind of works. Sorry for bothering. Would love to play this game when it comes out and stuff with you all, or at least the people who are nice.

-Z
P.S. More good news, most games become good after long hours of work figuring things out. It takes time. Usually when developers are like the ones your dealing with now, and are looking at the community-- the majority of the time the result is positive. Food for thought.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I'm surprised people aren't commenting on this yet.

I agree with what you said. However, I think the biggest issue that many naysayers seem to have is that they're worried that Sakurai won't accept any of their input, since he has such a commanding presence over the game's direction despite having more people working on balance and has previously expressed distaste for the hardcore aspect of Smash. It's this kind of situation where results will speak louder than speculation, so people want to see some action taken following post-release to know that Smash 4 can continue to be a changing entity that balances itself out and their opinions are indeed valued.

 

[hariooo]

People who've played every iteration of Street Fighter had the experience and context to judge SFIV just like people who've played 4 major iterations of Smash over 15 years can realistically develop an informed opinion of Smash 4 after watching 3 hours of gameplay.

For someone who seems to want to impart life lessons every post he makes, let me suggest that making an OP with "please calm down" isn't very persuasive.

Nintendo isn't Capcom and Seth Killian has never said that SFIV is a party game. So you're being very optimistic but there's so much evidence of Sakurai actively not listening that this all feels a little unrealistic, especially when the same rhetoric was around during '07 just before Brawl dropped. Well 7 years later of hard work figuring Brawl out and where are we now?

 

[ProjectAngel]

People who've played every iteration of Street Fighter had the experience and context to judge SFIV just like people who've played 4 major iterations of Smash over 15 years can realistically develop an informed opinion of Smash 4 after watching 3 hours of gameplay.

For someone who seems to want to impart life lessons every post he makes, let me suggest that making an OP with "please calm down" isn't very persuasive.

Nintendo isn't Capcom and Seth Killian has never said that SFIV is a party game. So you're being very optimistic but there's so much evidence of Sakurai actively not listening that this all feels a little unrealistic, especially when the same rhetoric was around during '07 just before Brawl dropped. Well 7 years later of hard work figuring Brawl out and where are we now?

The thing is, this is a very early version of Smash 4. Nothing is finalized yet and the developers are taking feedback from people on the E3 floor. There's still time to work everything out before the game goes gold.

Street Fighter had a similar deal.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

The thing is, this is a very early version of Smash 4. Nothing is finalized yet and the developers are taking feedback from people on the E3 floor. There's still time to work everything out before the game goes gold.

Street Fighter had a similar deal.

I don't think it's likely that anything significant will be changed between now and release, but I'd like to be proven wrong in the positive sense (e.g: dash dancing).

I'm more interested in what happens after the game is released. Does Nintendo say the game is perfect and stick their fingers in their ears and ignore us? Or will they try to be more cooperative with the community at large?

 

[hariooo]

The thing is, this is a very early version of Smash 4. Nothing is finalized yet and the developers are taking feedback from people on the E3 floor. There's still time to work everything out before the game goes gold.

Street Fighter had a similar deal.

Well according to Gimpyfish, beta Brawl had a form of L-canceling that was removed in release so there's potential for the game to go in the other direction too.

Also I wouldn't characterize a game that is going to be released in FOUR MONTHS as "very early version". And I've already said my piece on "developers taking feedback". The buck stops at Sakurai, not a floor rep polite enough to write a few things down on paper.

edit: Now that I think about it, the game is released in Japan in THREE MONTHS and since games usually go gold at least a month before release, we're looking at more like TWO MONTHS before the game is finalized.

 

[Teran]

Melee's metagame development was a bit different in that the whole community started as scrubs not knowing what to look for. Now they have about a decade of top level play under their belt, they're far more capable of figuring things out early on. I wouldn't say people are being too presumptuous, but I hold out that tiny glimmer of hope with Nintendo apparently showing active interest in asking the community for balance advice.

 

[RedrappeR]

People who've played every iteration of Street Fighter had the experience and context to judge SFIV just like people who've played 4 major iterations of Smash over 15 years can realistically develop an informed opinion of Smash 4 after watching 3 hours of gameplay.

For someone who seems to want to impart life lessons every post he makes, let me suggest that making an OP with "please calm down" isn't very persuasive.

Nintendo isn't Capcom and Seth Killian has never said that SFIV is a party game. So you're being very optimistic but there's so much evidence of Sakurai actively not listening that this all feels a little unrealistic, especially when the same rhetoric was around during '07 just before Brawl dropped. Well 7 years later of hard work figuring Brawl out and where are we now?

No, my point is people who had played 15 years judged the game incorrectly, like people judge every game incorrectly. And I want to impart life lessons not because I'm trying to be holier than though but because I'm trying to help your community. If you think i'm being a **** and elitist, well go ahead but I'm speaking from experience and trying to be constructive and positive, and most people arguing are just saying "**** you you don't get it"-- when my point is I do. I get it. Try to at least entertain my ideas without just trying to cancel them out. I do the same to yours.

 

[RedrappeR]

Melee's metagame development was a bit different in that the whole community started as scrubs not knowing what to look for. Now they have about a decade of top level play under their belt, they're far more capable of figuring things out early on. I wouldn't say people are being too presumptuous, but I hold out that tiny glimmer of hope with Nintendo apparently showing active interest in asking the community for balance advice.

Dude I'm trying to say, that EVERY game requires time to break down. When you enter this game, everyone is automatically a scrub. Every new game-- people are scrubs. Even top level players because they have systems to learn and tech to decipher. You're playing the game like only what you've played before. Just give it a second dude.

 

[Teran]

When you enter this game, everyone is automatically a scrub.

Nah G it don't work like that, being a scrub is also attached to state of mind. Top players get to grips extremely fast. M2K in Brawl is a pretty obvious example.
Also fundamental mechanics are what define a game, not hidden ATs. Brawl was always a super slow campfest from day one, and Melee even without wavedashing is still a furiously paced offensive title. People's gripes are with core mechanics that it's hard to foresee any small hidden ATs can overcome.

But hey, here's hoping they make some changes before release.

 

[RedrappeR]

Nah G it don't work like that, being a scrub is also attached to state of mind. Top players get to grips extremely fast. M2K in Brawl is a pretty obvious example.
Also fundamental mechanics are what define a game, not hidden ATs. Brawl was always a super slow campfest from day one, and Melee even without wavedashing is still a furiously paced offensive title. People's gripes are with core mechanics that it's hard to foresee any small hidden ATs can overcome.

But hey, here's hoping they make some changes before release.

Fair point. I stand by that last part of your post though. And to be honest, SFIV is pretty big right now, and all of those fundamental mechanics from day one aren't really present-- at least most holdover players from previous titles. Free reversals, iffy hit detection, shortcuts and slow speed were why a lot of people didn't like that game(and still don't.) I'm just trying to say that this ****'s happened a lot-- it's normal. It usually can turn out for the better.

 

[cooler1339]

I really don't mind if the game is different than Melee, but just looking at it after so much experience with other fighting games can mostly tell you if you will enjoy it or not. A lot of us raised concerns about Brawl being like this and similar posts to yours were made. If we simply wait for the game to come out then it's too late. It doesn't really matter though because Sakurai will not listen.

If something makes me mad it's not that he won't make Melee, but he seems to try so hard to stop it from being Melee that it's just such a boring game. If you enjoy it though, that doesn't bother me. I have other games I can play and I won't try to stop you from enjoying it.

 

[TheTuninator]

As said, the issue seems to be that, unlike with SFIV, many people are worried that the developmental team behind SSB4 doesn't have much interest in correcting these flaws to arrive at a technically satisfying game.

Capcom was out to develop a competitive fighter. Sakurai has demonstrated that he doesn't really view Smash as a competitive fighting game. This is cause for concern.

Now is the time to complain about everything, because if people wait till the game is released to voice their concerns it'll already be too late.

 

[Senario]

Hi. You probably don't know me, but I did Street Fighter music and videos and documentary things a while back. Also, the SCR trailers and stuff. You just saw a really early build of your game months before release with the first time anybody has played it. A lot of you think it looks fun. A lot of you think it looks boring and stupid. Here is a video of Street FIghter IV, a while before release.

http://youtu.be/1TIDZVL57vg

If any of you have played this game, the above video looks God awful. Not only from the people playing, but recovery times, the HUD, the way focus attack looks, game and walk speed. Everything. Lets not even compare it to Super Turbo or 3s(of which the latter's community pretty much hated the game ostensibly) Only slight changes were made to very minute things and it became a different game after release. And every update completely changed the game and the way people approached it.

Please calm down, and note that no game will every be 100 percent the way you want it when you play it. Melee was not like that when you first picked it up(Even though you'll argue, sincerely think, did you expect automatic depth with melee or did you find it after a long ****ing slog of hours working the engine.) and this game will not be like that. That's the bad news.

The good news is, unlike the last game, the developers actually would like to listen to you.So if you are constructive with your criticisms there is a good chance they will be fixed. If your cynical and a ****, then you're going to ruin it for everyone else. I'm just saying, you can literally get most of what you want if you just ask properly. That part's not opinion, it's a fact of how life kind of works. Sorry for bothering. Would love to play this game when it comes out and stuff with you all, or at least the people who are nice.

-Z
P.S. More good news, most games become good after long hours of work figuring things out. It takes time. Usually when developers are like the ones your dealing with now, and are looking at the community-- the majority of the time the result is positive. Food for thought.

I agree but this isn't capcom we are dealing with. It is largely Nintendo (who I do think want to have the game be competitive, much like pokemon) and the big problem in the room, Sakurai. Don't get me wrong, sakurai gave us great games and is a talented designer. I am thankful that melee and 64 came out. Nowadays it is just that his stance on competitive smash and how the game should only be played as a party game is hypocritical as paraphrasing him, "Limiting your view that this is only a ___ game or a ____ game hurts game development". And imo he is the biggest reason that is holding the smash bros series back from having a new game that is deep and complex enough to play at a competitive level but still have the ability to play at a casual level.

 

[RedrappeR]

It's my Birthday today, so I probably won't respond to a lot of things, but I want to address this.

My post is less about disliking the direction of the game, and more about how you express it. It's being expressed poorly. And please, stop using the Nintendo vs Capcom thing, because to be honest-- the hate Nintendo and Sakurai get here is less than or equal to the hate for Capcom at any given moment regardless of anything they do to balance.

I'm not new here, I joined circa 2008 because I wanted to hop on the new game(along with my friends who were melee players), and yeah everything imploded, and as much as I'd like to join now, there's a lot of attitudes just going around that make me and a bunch of other people reconsider. I've consistently defended the Smash community on SRK, and in person at events like EVO when I could. I took the time to come out Sundays(Which I didn't have to) to the weekly Melee event at Super to film ya'll because I really believed you guys deserved to have a say about how amazing your game really is. I have massive respect and I UNDERSTAND where you are coming from-- but again, for a second, this isn't about whether or not your justified at disliking something, it's about how your expressing your dislike.

There's two ways to do it-- there's the way where you are more likely to get what you want, and there's the way that makes you look immature and out of touch. The latter is how a lot of people sound. The simplest decision would have been to make a "suggestions to dev team" thread on Smashboards and at the least e-mailed it to the dev's. You seem to think again, that because they're Nintendo and in the past they haven't listened, they still aren't going to. Companies change, and when you have a stock plummet that high, attitudes do.

Here is some insight: Nintendo literally HAS to take into account what you say. From a business standpoint they're being held accountable, and bad decisions like just going "**** you" to installed bases will make their board more likely to restructure overall management in the company. They're stock plummeted a few months ago, remember? They can't dig their heels in or people are going to be thrown out and replaced. Japan or America, this is a common practice in both places to have to change strategy. Their board will throw them off. The reason they went through the event you saw the other day(which by the way, would never have had top players or anything there if they didn't. There's NO reason to do something like that it's an insane amount of money involved and as much hype as it may build for the game, its incredibly dangerous to just hand over broadcast rights direct from company to commentators no matter how well known they are) was to show you they're listening. They have to. They want to please you. I don't think you understand-- you guys are literally their word of mouth. So when you overreact, people see that. If you keep expressing yourselves badly, they're going to quit the experiment and literally never listen to you again-- because they have no reason to. They tried it once and ya'll responded viciously.

Literally every company does this now, it's standard practice to try and please installed bases because it's a great niche to start from and help spread your product. I'm speaking from a standpoint of somebody who has worked with people like this. The smart thing you do with any brand is check the install base and market to the hardcore because those people will carry your torch and get your word out quicker. You are the hardcore. They will do things to please you. But if you act like *****- they'll just startover. You're acting like *****. Stop that. You can get what you want-- just ask nicely. It's not rocket science.

Anyway, yeah. Thanks for entertaining this. Would love to be a part of this community, but would like it more if people felt less entitled to the emotion to dislike and disengage, and more entitled to constructively build on dialogue. The latter builds healthy results, the former builds Brawl and Vanilla AE.

 

[A Lucky Person]

I
The simplest decision would have been to make a "suggestions to dev team" thread on Smashboards and at the least e-mailed it to the dev's.

Someone should get on this. This is the move. It's better than sitting around and whining about it. If we make a thread and get as many members of the board to support it as possible and send it to Nintendo, at least we will have tried.