Some gameplay ideas

[rsc_390]

I vaguely remember discussing this, but I couldn't find it in the search.

What if successfully performing certain meteors or spikes gave you vertical height like a second jump would? For example, imagine Falcon's Dair.

Imagine being able to run off FD and fall to ShineSpike depths and perform a Dair on someone. In melee, the resulting lag would be your doom. But what if SUCCESSFULLY hitting the opponent recoving gave you a vertical boost, as if you JUMPED off the character?

This would be really cool because it'd encourage people to be more dairing with their meteor smashes. If you are confident with your aim, why not attempt to Spike/Meteor someone who's far below you?

This also wouldn't be too unfair b/c unlike the shinespike, you'd have to actually HIT the person in order to survive.

Imagine this while recovering! Imagine still have your second jump, and your opponent runs off the level to finish you off. What if you were to suddenly use your second jump to go above him, and then do a Dair to send him downwards and send you up! How badass of a recovery would that be? (Think how awesome it was in that old Ken vs Isai fight when Ken wasn't killed by Isai's knee, and then ended up killing Isai with his spike after reaching the ledge)

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As much as I like the idea, there are a few problems

1. It wouldn't look right for certain character's meteor smashes, ESPECIALLY falco's (this is not really a huge problem because they could easily make it only work for C. Falcon style Dairs)

2. (this is the real problem) What if you don't want the vertical height? If i'm using Falcon, I want my Dair->Knee combo. Of course, being launched into the air might actually that combo MORE effective, since the victim is launched into the air with you.

Please discuss the idea along with these problems, and if you can suggest possible solutions
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One more thing. What if you could tech off other characters? Imagine being hit with a kill shot, only to tech off another player. It'd be even cooler if as a result the momentum was transferred to that player and HE died instead lmao. (whoah, imagine your teammate as a weapon in a team match. It'd be SO hard to dodge a flying opponent.

Of course, this transfer of momentum mechanic would make the game very hectic. Imagine being spiked and teching off of someone you hit on the way down, and as a result spiking them. That'd be crazy...

 

[Private Zulen]

That would be great for me, and bad for anyone else. Half, the time, I end up killing myself with the **** thing, usually, because I lose track of how many jumps I did before I actually hit.

However, what you're saying doesn't make sense with normal physics, since Falcon (Pause while doing the dair), is apparently smashing downwards with amazing force. The frames before, he is curling up, and then releasing all of his strength downwards (with his thighs, I imagine). It would be an entirely different case if you merely wanted to jump off of someone, where most of the muscle contract wouldn't be too extreme (it takes relatively less energy to jump off someone than smashing them downwards I imagine). So, it would only make sense physically if his dair was weakened respectively.

Of course, this is assuming Brawl has physics in it (hoho).

 

[Takalth]

I do want to see spikes/meteors to be a greater part of Brawl than melee.

On a side note, a similar mechanic can be done with C. Falcon and Ganondorf's up+B. Chase somebody really far off of the edge and go for an up+B, and if you hit them, you can recover. Crazy risks like that have allowed me to beat people who are better than I am, just because it's so unexpected.

 

[rsc_390]

That would be great for me, and bad for anyone else. Half, the time, I end up killing myself with the **** thing, usually, because I lose track of how many jumps I did before I actually hit.

However, what you're saying doesn't make sense with normal physics, since Falcon (Pause while doing the dair), is apparently smashing downwards with amazing force. The frames before, he is curling up, and then releasing all of his strength downwards (with his thighs, I imagine). It would be an entirely different case if you merely wanted to jump off of someone, where most of the muscle contract wouldn't be too extreme (it takes relatively less energy to jump off someone than smashing them downwards I imagine). So, it would only make sense physically if his dair was weakened respectively.

Of course, this is assuming Brawl has physics in it (hoho).

Well like you say, Brawl isn't confined to real life physics, but you're forgetting something important. It doesn't take much force to jump off someone who is grounded. I imagine jumping off of someone airborne to give you the same vertical gain that your second jump would, you'd need an incredible amount of force.

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Lol you're right Takalth, risk does make it more fun. I now find shinespiking boring (but still funny when against a recovering samus) and get more joy out of succeeding in such risks. I'll have to try your idea lmao.

 

[bloodvayne]

Kind of like Young Link bouncing off heads with his Dair?

 

[Green Shell]

Kind of like Young Link bouncing off heads with his Dair?

That's too tiny of a boost.
Great idea, I think it'd be awesome to have that. Especially seeing Captain Falcon doing that makes me want it more.

For other characters such as Mario, and his dair, probably they could get a limited boost, since they're dair isn't as direct and "smash" powerful as others.
It'd definately be fun to end a combo like this, and recover from a great distance.

 

[cless-mint]

Well like you say, Brawl isn't confined to real life physics, but you're forgetting something important. It doesn't take much force to jump off someone who is grounded. I imagine jumping off of someone airborne to give you the same vertical gain that your second jump would, you'd need an incredible amount of force.

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Lol you're right Takalth, risk does make it more fun. I now find shinespiking boring (but still funny when against a recovering samus) and get more joy out of succeeding in such risks. I'll have to try your idea lmao.

You do realize that your second jump is when you jump from air. Jumping from air takes WAY more force than off of another person. So it's very possible to do this. It's a game though too so anything is possible.

 

[petre]

about your problem #2...if you were still holding down on the control stick (or possibly cstick) when you actually hit the opponent, youd keep going down, like how you fall through platforms instead of landing on them when you hold down while falling. if you wanted the boost, youd press down+a, then release down before your attack actually happens (or sometime before the end of the hitstun), and youd go upwards.

this actaully isnt a bad idea. it would definitely encourage these offstage midair battles sakurai seems so focused on.

 

[rsc_390]

You do realize that your second jump is when you jump from air. Jumping from air takes WAY more force than off of another person. So it's very possible to do this. It's a game though too so anything is possible.

LMAO.

You are right of course. With the exception of very few characters (Kirby, JigglyPuff, Mewtwo, Ness, Samus, Peach, and maybe a few others) double jumping should be impossible.

However, in that particular post I was referring to real life, to argue against Takalth's real life reference. But I guess you win by bringing us all back to the world of videogames lol ^_^

I was simply arguing with Talkath about whether or not it would look good. I think it'd look awesome.

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about your problem #2...if you were still holding down on the control stick (or possibly cstick) when you actually hit the opponent, youd keep going down, like how you fall through platforms instead of landing on them when you hold down while falling. if you wanted the boost, youd press down+a, then release down before your attack actually happens (or sometime before the end of the hitstun), and youd go upwards.

this actaully isnt a bad idea. it would definitely encourage these offstage midair battles sakurai seems so focused on.

I was actually thinking of this, but the opposite for the sake of immersion. The more complicated action (not only meteoring the opponent but launching yourself) should get the more complicated button combination. [this is actually a good principle for game design in general]

By this I mean that doing nothing should have it be the same as it in melee, while holding UP after beginning the move animation would have you launch upwards. This would make the upward launch much more satisfying since you were more involved.

(Besides. I would personally HATE to hold the c-stick down. When I use the c-stick for something, I barely even flick it.)

 

[Takalth]

I was simply arguing with Talkath about whether or not it would look good. I think it'd look awesome.

Can you point me to the part of my post where I said or implied that? I'm on your side here.

 

[Dacvak]

How about this: When you spike someone, if you tap "jump" at the exact time your attack impacts, it would give you a small boost upward. Like teching off someone's head. XD

This way, it wouldn't be broken, and if a player didn't want the extra boost, he wouldn't have to have it.

~Dac

 

[red stone]

there are only a few characters with this problem. mario to name one. to implement this into the engine, besides completely ignoring the physics we know and love would completely overpower some characters like falco and marth who already have efficient spikes.

 

[cless-mint]

Can you point me to the part of my post where I said or implied that? I'm on your side here.

@Takalth: I believe he meant to say private zulen.

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@red stone: If it was implemented I believe it'd only be for the lighter characters anyway. Mainly the ones with no weapon. In Link's case, you should be able to dair and maybe either hold down or let go depending on if you want to bounce off of them or just hit them once. People with swords probably won't be able to jump off of someone else but you never know what Sakarai will do. lolz

 

[petre]

I was actually thinking of this, but the opposite for the sake of immersion. The more complicated action (not only meteoring the opponent but launching yourself) should get the more complicated button combination. [this is actually a good principle for game design in general]

By this I mean that doing nothing should have it be the same as it in melee, while holding UP after beginning the move animation would have you launch upwards. This would make the upward launch much more satisfying since you were more involved.

(Besides. I would personally HATE to hold the c-stick down. When I use the c-stick for something, I barely even flick it.)

i think that pressing down and then releasing it within a set period of time (quickly) is more difficult than pressing down and holding it for whatever amount of time you want...but maybe thats just me. doing something faster is usually harder than doing it slower, right (in the case of a fighting game...)?

oh, and ignore the part about the c-stick, it would only not pop you up if you were holding the control stick down. of course if thats too easy, you could always pull something like you have to tech your own hit against the person (perform the attack, tech the hit, and hold up to techjump)...that would be if you want to make it something difficult to pull off. of course teching your own hits would be kinda strange...hahaha.

 

[Adi]

I don't think they should do that because the designers gave all the spikes certain weakness and strengths in order to maintain class balance. If you made everyone as good of a spiker as say a Falco it would disrupt it because each character with a worse spike has other advantages to make up for their disability.

 

[Eaode]

This is actually an awesome idea. Not just dairs in general though. only spikes/meteors. Think of mario's Fair. Imagine how badass it would be to smash someone down while grabbing them to launch you a bit horizontally.

 

[MastaWeeji]

That sounds like a pretty great idea, and when i read the problems you've mentioned about wanting the boost or not, i thought of the same thing: pressing up on the attack contact for the boost. I think i would also like to see Captain Falcon recover off of spiking too, that makes spiking even sweeter.

Hey, is this thread open to other gameplay ideas? cuz i had an idea that would help alot for sliding characters, and plus what i'm thinking of looks pretty cool too. Can you think of those moments where you get knocked back by your opponent, but you can't tech off of a nearby wall because you are gliding along it? Slid off of the edge when Fox Shines ya? Slipped up the wing of the Great fox when someone up smashed you? well how about a new way to recover... Clawing. Now, when you start sliding against a surface, if you press the control stick towards the surface, you will claw into the surface to slow your knockback speed to a halt. Think of crouching down Spiderman style sliding with your hands to the ground, that kinda stance.

Anyone see that goin places?

 

[soaz]

i like the tech idea but i dont like the other one.

 

[Green Shell]

That sounds like a pretty great idea, and when i read the problems you've mentioned about wanting the boost or not, i thought of the same thing: pressing up on the attack contact for the boost. I think i would also like to see Captain Falcon recover off of spiking too, that makes spiking even sweeter.

Hey, is this thread open to other gameplay ideas? cuz i had an idea that would help alot for sliding characters, and plus what i'm thinking of looks pretty cool too. Can you think of those moments where you get knocked back by your opponent, but you can't tech off of a nearby wall because you are gliding along it? Slid off of the edge when Fox Shines ya? Slipped up the wing of the Great fox when someone up smashed you? well how about a new way to recover... Clawing. Now, when you start sliding against a surface, if you press the control stick towards the surface, you will claw into the surface to slow your knockback speed to a halt. Think of crouching down Spiderman style sliding with your hands to the ground, that kinda stance.

Anyone see that goin places?

I can only see certain characters doing that. Pikachu, Fox, and others with... claws.
I really can't imagine Wario clawing on the edge of the Great Fox... lol.
It'd be like another walljumping thing, only certain people can do it.

 

[MastaWeeji]

I can only see certain characters doing that. Pikachu, Fox, and others with... claws.
I really can't imagine Wario clawing on the edge of the Great Fox... lol.
It'd be like another walljumping thing, only certain people can do it.

I see what ur saying, but i guess another thing can come into play here. If the level terrain is grass or dirt, then it should be possible for anyone to do that then wouldn't it? If a character doesn't have claws, he/she should still be able to slow a slide down in the dirt/grass.

 

[Green Shell]

I see what ur saying, but i guess another thing can come into play here. If the level terrain is grass or dirt, then it should be possible for anyone to do that then wouldn't it? If a character doesn't have claws, he/she should still be able to slow a slide down in the dirt/grass.

That's sort of already in the Melee game, however.
And it's very similar to your idea, all you have to do is duck, and if you're at low percentage, you'll reduce the sliding amount.

 

[MastaWeeji]

^yea, i know it's similar to crouch blocking, but crouch blocking just keeps you grounded, it doesn't stop you from sliding off the stage. Plus what i'm saying is it would be great if you could do that on any wall that is nearby. Just a slight difference, but can make the difference in a match (i've been slid off of the stage a few times by shiners).

 

[rsc_390]

I still don't quite understand the wall-clawing idea, so I can't really think about the specifics of it. When can you touch a wall without being able to tech on it? I've yet to have this problem...

 

[Eaode]

RSC, is kinda like a pseudo glitch where you're not in the tumble state, but still have a lot of momentum. If you CC tech a powerful hit with luigi, you'll see an example. after you tech, you still have momentum.

 

[THK]

Interesting thread. Waiting for someone to bring up the idea of grabbing onto the legs of edge hoggers.

 

[MastaWeeji]

Well, u just did, and that sounds really intresting, but i really doubt that would be put in the game... especially because if can lead to chains of characters on the ledges, if everyone was trying to recover at the moment, lol. If they do put that in, that would look pretty sweet.

If they were to only limit 2 characters per edge in that sense, that would be half assin it.... why would one character be able to grab the legs of the first, if a third person can't grab the second?

 

[Arc2012]

If they did put the spike jump idea in the game, every time someone came to spike me, I'd just air dodge and watch us both fall to our deaths. Although, that would be a fun mind game. Come at someone like you were going to spike them and when they air dodge just jump right back up to the stage. Did I just contradict myself? I'll give this idea a maybe.

 

[rsc_390]

If they did put the spike jump idea in the game, every time someone came to spike me, I'd just air dodge and watch us both fall to our deaths. Although, that would be a fun mind game. Come at someone like you were going to spike them and when they air dodge just jump right back up to the stage. Did I just contradict myself? I'll give this idea a maybe.

I don't think this'll be too common because its rare for a person to give up like that, but it is an interesting notion.

 

[MastaWeeji]

If i was to go and spike someone, i wouldn't jump too far knowing that i wouldn't be able to come back... but having the spike bonus will just ensure that i will be able to come back. So even if the person that i was going to spike dodged, i would still be able to recover.

 

[rsc_390]

If i was to go and spike someone, i wouldn't jump too far knowing that i wouldn't be able to come back... but having the spike bonus will just ensure that i will be able to come back. So even if the person that i was going to spike dodged, i would still be able to recover.

I don't think you understand. The main point of the idea was that you would only get the "spike bonus" if you hit the target. This means that you can NOT be sure if you will come back, because if the target dodges, you will not hit him and thus not get the bonus. This is the flaw that Arc2012 was pointing out.

 

[MastaWeeji]

^What i was saying was if i was going to spike someone, i wouldn't jump out too far, so even if the target dodges, i won't get the bonus, but i would be able to return. If i did hit the target, the spike bonus would only help my recovery. I wouldn't jump out to spike someone if they were obviously too far for me to recover without relying on the spike bonus.

 

[rsc_390]

^What i was saying was if i was going to spike someone, i wouldn't jump out too far, so even if the target dodges, i won't get the bonus, but i would be able to return. If i did hit the target, the spike bonus would only help my recovery. I wouldn't jump out to spike someone if they were obviously too far for me to recover without relying on the spike bonus.

...but the whole fun of the spike bonus comes from being able to go where you otherwise wouldn't be able to recover, catch the opponent off guard, make it back due to the bonus, and come out looking like a badass (since you risked your life just to completely stuff your opponent in the face)

 

[THK]

Well, u just did, and that sounds really intresting, but i really doubt that would be put in the game... especially because if can lead to chains of characters on the ledges, if everyone was trying to recover at the moment, lol. If they do put that in, that would look pretty sweet.

If they were to only limit 2 characters per edge in that sense, that would be half assin it.... why would one character be able to grab the legs of the first, if a third person can't grab the second?

That's a comical image. A long chain of leg grabbers.

 

[marth8000]

i use marth and try to use d-air to meteor but i often SD its not a spike sadly for me so i usually hit them but they come back so i reckon that would be really good

 

[CBNJ]

Haha, yeah that would work good for me, I always kill myself with it too. I doubt other people would like it, though.