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Snake's Standing Grab Shifted upwards Problems?!?

NQuad1Zero

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
44
Just something I've been noticing since 3.5, Snake's grab hitbox apparently got shifted upwards or something which is to make it that crouched characters cant be grabbed or something (idk), but now after a goddam tranquilizer hit and going for the grab, it just completely misses, and this seems to be the case on like literally half the cast! I seem to only be able to grab the people who are like equal to Ike's height and taller or something (Like fricken Mario I seem to whiff my grab on when he's asleep sometimes).

I know supposedly the dashgrab has a lower hitbox which should be able to grab asleep people, but it's slower (and EVERYONE tries to hardcore mash out on tranqs) and I usually run up to ppl and sticky (which I think is probably a bad habit after a tranq, because they sometimes mash out wake up and punish after my sticky) which means I'd have to dash back and forwards quickly to get the dash grab, making it more unreliable and time consuming.

Is there any alternatives/possible methods to get by this? Like d-tilt doesn't launch them high enough sometimes for the C4 kill, and if standing grab whiffs on sleeping characters than uptilt DEFINITELY will. And placing a mine underneath them takes way too long.
 
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FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
This has been bugging me as well. I'm going to start trying 3 hits of Dair > Utilt/Uthrow and see if that works better.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I've definitely got a post floating around about this subject already. Dair -> Utilt/grab works wonders on most of the cast. It seems like Sheik and short characters can force grab to whiff, though, so be wary of that. Kirby and puff (among others) can be Dair -> f-tilt -> u-tilt combo'd on most DIs (Dair is best SDI'd in I think, which is bad DI for the f-tilt. Nair tends to pop characters into the air and might be worth exploring as well. Shorten your Dairs so that they can't SDI it very much and learn which characters sleep and duck under standing grab (a list is on my KO% guide spreadsheet). Also learn how to boost grab because Snake's is actually usable and is great for chasing after tranq. Grab doesn't have to be your only follow-up, either. D-tilt links reliably against fastfallers at higher percents and floaties at lower percents, as does up smash (which you can DACUS) against fast fallers. These can link into a fair spike into tech chase (usually a jab reset) which is outstanding and gets you everything you need. Fair also has almost as much vertical range as u-air so don't underestimate the reach of SH fair. You can also crawl tilt into JC grab in most situations, which nets you the grab and a little extra damage. Spacing dash attack to put you into a quick and long-distance crawl is a good way of setting that up in the tranq time constraints.
 
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NQuad1Zero

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
44
does ftilt=>utilt still work if they tech ftilt?

Boost grabbing is... Dash attack cancel into grab? I'm not aware of its usage and how it's done.

Dtilt I find is too weak in comparison to upthrow. and how do you follow up from fair on grounded enemies? I seem to be excecuting it too slowly or something but they like usually slide along the ground away from me or something (or just tech away).
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
f-tilt u-tilt will work on the no tech and on any characters who have a fall speed slower than Lucario (24/41 characters). Those characters don't hit the ground out of f-tilt and therefore have no opportunity to tech: it's a true combo at all percents. Bowser's actually an anomaly here, but I think his weight might also be influencing that combo. The comprehensive list is on my KO% guide.

That's exactly what boost grab is. It's the same inputs as the DACUS without the upward Control Stick shift, basically. Experiment with dash grab and boost grab a bit side-by-side to see their comparative distances: boost grab has a bit more reach overall.

That's precisely why d-tilt is sometimes good. the percentages where u-throw sends an opponent too high for a follow-up are precisely the times you want to use d-tilt: so you can follow up. Example: Marth dies to tipper UAir on WarioWare at something like 97% out of a full hop (this is somewhere between the first tier of platforms, where he dies at 104%, and the top platform, where he dies at 93%). But at this percent, u-throw sends him well above the top platform. I'm not positive on this because I haven't actually tested it, but I'm pretty sure that d-tilt -> u-air will link on Marth at such a percent and allow for a KO. That's a really rough and simplistic example but I think it illustrates the point well enough. If not it'll definitely link into bair at other percents which can KO super early (~80%) on that stage.

Following up with fair is literally just a techchase, but you definitely need to Fastfall/L-cancel the fair in order to react. A lot goes into this in that you have to have paid attention to their tech options in other situations or just need knowledge of how good a characters' tech options are, i.e. Spacies can immediately shine out of a tech so tech in place is really good for them whereas Snake has a huge tech roll which is good for him to use. The fair is sort of a read in that sense, but it's at least educated in that you can be fairly certain of what they're going to do when they do it. Now as for covering what they do:

For when you don't get the spike hitbox (meaning they get sent more or less straight downward):
no tech: jab reset into literally whatever you want, c4, dair jab reset, nair, f-tilt into the best option (be it 2nd hit, u-tilt, grab*, c4**, or another techchase), d-tilt, crawl tilt, et cetera. The no tech is super free. It's also pretty common because it's not the easiest tech to get.
*this is a true combo on the floatier members of the cast, although I'm not positive where the cut-off is. It probably works on ROB and definitely works on Samus, Mewtwo, Zelda...
**Similar to the above, this is a true combo on really floaty members (I only know Samus, Puff, and Zelda for sure), but it can also punish missed tech on the f-tilt as well as punish tech in place with FH C4 detonate (which could be followed with an aerial at certain percents; ex. down air at low percents to set up a regrab or C4 stick).

Tech roll away: Tranq. It's just about the best option at this point because fair hurts and they'll be asleep long enough to at least get a c4 stick or another launcher hit. This is probably the second most common option because they tend to be DIing for the Uair, but you could also condition them to not do this by bairing them instead.

tech in place: regrab, tranq, c4, cypher... cover their fast options and time it right and you should still get just about anything. Pay attention to what option they tend to pick when they tech in place and use that against them: C4 beats shield, regrab beats most things, and cypher will at least trade with shine, and they'll probably not DI the cypher so if you don't get hit you get a C4 stick for free too.

Tech roll in: Tranq. Covers it even better than tech roll away. You can also probably DACUS.

No tech roll: tranq, DACUS.

get up attack: I have the most trouble covering this option honestly. I'd say shield it and then Cypher OOS as that's your fastest option and leads into most aerials or a C4.

This is all pretty much conjecture and thought experiments 'cause I haven't documented how I follow up on any of these (although I should) but I'm pretty sure this is what I do and it tends to work well.
 

NQuad1Zero

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
44
I really appreciate the paragraph of reading you've given me, really helps!

Except 1 thing... I find it literally impossible if they're going to tech in place/away/towards or roll in/away etc. Do you just make the attack read guessing that they would or do you have to SOMEHOW practice reacting? Or do you just have to have done it a few times and picked up on their habits or something?
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
A good portion of it is reads yeah. A larger portion is conditioning and consciousness of your opponents' habits, and practice with that only comes with playing people and actively trying to obtain that.
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Update on the f-tilt stuff:
Grab works out of f-tilt on:
Dedede
Ice Climbers
Mario
Marth
Mewtwo
Mr G&W
Ness
Sonic
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Luigi
Peach
R.O.B.
Samus
Zelda
and C4 works out of f-tilt on:
Ice Climbers
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Luigi
Mewtwo
Peach
R.O.B.
Samus
Zelda

Watch Snake's foot for a visual cue: a frame or two after it touches the ground, you can act out of f-tilt.
 
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BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Hrrm; for sticking, did you test Mewtwo and the Icies? Frame data suggests that a stick would work, with at least a 3 frame window (and it also suggests that Peach can be stuck as well), though I'm not in any position to test anything yet.

I'd also like to add that if you're frame perfect, you can probably stick Ness, Mario, and G&W if they don't DI anything, though I've only confirmed sticking Ness. Not the best idea, though, since if you're off by a frame your C4 might fall off onto the floor.

I can't say anything about the list of grabbable characters, since Snake's standing grab's a bit high in 3.5 (unlike C4, which can hit prone characters) meaning that frame data's a bit less reliable for confirmation. Regardless, nice list.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I tested everything at 1/4 speed—if they hit the ground before the C4 is stuck, they can tech and it'll miss. There surely could be human error, but I'm rather confident in those findings. There could also be subtle hurtbox distinctions to consider as well—Puff, for example, can cause the C4 to whiff because of her small hurtbox. Mewtwo's large hurtbox might shift that in that he lands "earlier"—this is what I think causes Bowser being anomalously excluded from f-tilt->u-tilt despite having the correct fall speed.

Edit: Ice Climbers and Mewtwo do actually work. Ness, Mario, and G&W do not, however. Thanks for catching that!
 
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