Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[ArtfulHobbes]

I wonder if TheRealCartererer will make an appearance in this thread...

Maybe one day.

 

[blargh257]

We made the front page of r/smashbros again.
No one seems to hate us. Progress.

 

[Half A Walrus]

Got a question, I sold my moon launcher badge on accident, is there any way to get it back/get another one? Or do I have to reset my save?

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

We made the front page of r/smashbros again.
No one seems to hate us. Progress.

No hate, just interest and some skepticism which is to be expected.

It's still getting noticed though. We just need an official side event to get the ball rolling I think.

I'm just glad nobody said that it's Melee 2.0 or HD PM. Because at its core, it's still Smash 4.

Got a question, I sold my moon launcher badge on accident, is there any way to get it back/get another one? Or do I have to reset my save?

That sucks dude... unfortunately thats going to have to be a reset. All other equipment is randomly generated so unless you have luck of the gods, this is the only specific Moon Launcher protection badge you can get.

 

[Half A Walrus]

That sucks dude... unfortunately thats going to have to be a reset. All other equipment is randomly generated so unless you have luck of the gods, this is the only specific Moon Launcher protection badge you can get.

Damn, well it looks like I know what I'm doing this weekend.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Unlocked all 3 equipment pieces for build 2 tonight :D
For now I'm just gonna put them on the characters I'm interested in maining until I have the time to fix everything

 

[DNeon]

I've never been one for the idea of 'melee-fied' Sm4sh, and I get that's not what you guys want to do, but as far as fighting games go I've always been the kind of person who enjoys playing the footsies game, spacing correctly and trying to outmaneuver my opponent. This seems like a lot of the game is dedicated to going in, but that's my outside impression. Is there still footsies in this mode or is just all out aggression?

 

[Muro]

I've never been one for the idea of 'melee-fied' Sm4sh, and I get that's not what you guys want to do, but as far as fighting games go I've always been the kind of person who enjoys playing the footsies game, spacing correctly and trying to outmaneuver my opponent. This seems like a lot of the game is dedicated to going in, but that's my outside impression. Is there still footsies in this mode or is just all out aggression?

Still smash 4 man. You have plenty of choice in how to play it.

 

[DNeon]

Still smash 4 man. You have plenty of choice in how to play it.

Fair enough, it's just that from looking at it it seems to punish a lot of spacing options very heavily. I'll try this out and see how I go.

 

[Rynhardt]

I just saw this on the reddit and decided to give it a try. It's the perfect middle ground between melee and smash 4, offering characters more options without the ridiculous tech gate, speeds up the game, and makes it easier to kill. It seems like the barrier to make this a standard mode of play is quite honestly very doable. I will be streaming friendlies of this both local and online, thanks to the online play glitch that was discovered. I just purchased a second Wii U so I can bring SLHG customs and standard customs to our weeklies, to gauge interest in the mode. My only concern is, if this does become popular at our weeklies, I am not sure if I am able to distribute it to other players' consoles as easily as I could with the standard custom movesets from a 3ds. I know since people have already cracked smash 3ds there should be a way to cheat this equipment into a save, but is there a legitimate way to get a copy of the same three pieces of equipment legitimately on 3ds? If not, what is the easiest or most affordable way to cheat them on to a 3ds so that I can distribute SLHG standard custom movesets to other players' Wii Us?

EDIT: Though I have not been involved in the development of this mode, moreso involved in standardizing customs, I have never discredited the idea of equipment used to create an exciting, fun, competitive, balanced new game mode. Reading through this thread, I wish people would get more excited at something like this finding good ground instead of trying to argue every possible logistics problem without also trying to offer or work to find solutions to them. A fun game mode is a fun game mode regardless of the barrier created, and those involved have done a great job at minimizing that, I would say. Customs are really the only thing that complicate this. It seems without customs this mode is accessible within the first hour.

 

[blargh257]

(Very long quote expressing concerns about customs that I don't want to quote in its entirety)

As of right now we don't have customs in the ruleset as far as I know. For me at least that's because Pika is already really top tier and side B 2 might break him, and there are a few others that aren't as bad.
The challenges are as follows:
-Collect all custom moves
-Collect 700 trophies
-Break 50K blocks in trophy rush
-Clear a Crazy Order with Mega Man (for Up B 2 which we mandate in customs-off)
It would seem to me that if someone is not willing to use challenge hammers, they've probably done this already with the possible exception of Trophy Rush.
If they are, then there you go. Just do three of them and the Mega Man thing and you should be good.

 

[ZADD]

is there a legitimate way to get a copy of the same three pieces of equipment legitimately on 3ds? If not, what is the easiest or most affordable way to cheat them on to a 3ds so that I can distribute SLHG standard custom movesets to other players' Wii Us?

Those are very good questions that I assume will be hammered out within the next year. Right now, if we want this to become more popular, we need to work through these problems for the sake of the gameplay and stream it/upload replays just like you said. Project M tournaments take about the same time to set up (Getting an SD, loading PM onto it, then loading PM) as an SLHG tournament would on a brand new console. (Beat All-star, 100-man melee, and crazy orders with Villager.) I wholeheartdly believe a community whose gameplay is more exciting to play, but more importantly to watch will last longer as a competitive title.

Not saying it will, but If Sm4sh fizzles out like Brawl did, a lot more people might take this seriously.

 

[Muro]

I just saw this on the reddit and decided to give it a try. It's the perfect middle ground between melee and smash 4

I'm glad you like it man, drop by the online thread if you wanna challenge other players.

My only concern is, if this does become popular at our weeklies, I am not sure if I am able to distribute it to other players' consoles as easily as I could with the standard custom movesets from a 3ds. I know since people have already cracked smash 3ds there should be a way to cheat this equipment into a save, but is there a legitimate way to get a copy of the same three pieces of equipment legitimately on 3ds? If not, what is the easiest or most affordable way to cheat them on to a 3ds so that I can distribute SLHG standard custom movesets to other players' Wii Us?

This is not a question I can answer unfortunately, since I don't have a 3ds. I think honestly the barrier to get them is so low that we don't need to resort to it unless somebody has already spent too many hammers or just doesn't want to spend hammers for whatever reason. However those cases will be the exception I think, and even in those cases they could just grind the challenges if there's no other method.

Somebody from the custom moves project can probably answer better about transfering sets from the wii u to the 3ds and vice versa.

EDIT: Though I have not been involved in the development of this mode, moreso involved in standardizing customs, I have never discredited the idea of equipment used to create an exciting, fun, competitive, balanced new game mode. Reading through this thread, I wish people would get more excited at something like this finding good ground instead of trying to argue every possible logistics problem without also trying to offer or work to find solutions to them. A fun game mode is a fun game mode regardless of the barrier created, and those involved have done a great job at minimizing that, I would say. Customs are really the only thing that complicate this. It seems without customs this mode is accessible within the first hour.

Well I'm very glad this is finally picking up some steam. Assuming we're gonna stay in a "no customs" metagame for SLHG, this should probably only take a single set, which would be compatible with customs.

 

[ZADD]

On a more hype note, you should all be afraid of my Falcon..

 

[Muro]

I dunno @ ZADD I think OGBJ just exposed your falcon.

And we have a new main video

 

[Rynhardt]

Well I'm very glad this is finally picking up some steam. Assuming we're gonna stay in a "no customs" metagame for SLHG, this should probably only take a single set, which would be compatible with customs.

I don't think strictly no customs will last, just because there's little reason to limit options. I understand customs aren't balanced around SLHG but especially when characters like Link are going to rely on customing to stay relevant, I'd rather find out what's broken in SLHG and possibly look in to limiting it than removing the many balanced options. The SLHG console at our weeklies will have every option available, as in, I have all customs unlocked so I want people to try as many things as possible, to find out what works and what doesn't.

 

[Muro]

In case anybody missed it @ Rynhardt is streaming SLHG here: http://twitch.tv/rynnyryn/

edit: Updated the OP, we're done researching builds, no need for a long section like that.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Find out about this through reddit and this is awesome. Pikachu is a dream to play now!

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I don't think strictly no customs will last, just because there's little reason to limit options. I understand customs aren't balanced around SLHG but especially when characters like Link are going to rely on customing to stay relevant, I'd rather find out what's broken in SLHG and possibly look in to limiting it than removing the many balanced options. The SLHG console at our weeklies will have every option available, as in, I have all customs unlocked so I want people to try as many things as possible, to find out what works and what doesn't.

I agree. Certain customs could make characters a lot better, plus it opens up more variety. I've been testing out a lot of customs too, and from what I can see nothing stands out as broken, besides the stuff we already know is like the Villagers trip tree/exploding balloon combo. If anything this will allow for characters to have a bit better recovery or another attacking option if they want.

Like Bowser's claw dashing, or DK's Kong Cyclone, Links boomerang, etc.

I dunno @ ZADD I think OGBJ just exposed your falcon.

And we have a new main video

YO that's a pretty sick video. That ending combo though.. really hype stuff man.

 

[ZADD]

I dunno @ ZADD I think OGBJ just exposed your falcon.

Haha yea... that kid is really good, his mix-ups are on point. Here's a Bo3 I did with him as Peach (one of my fav characters).

 

[Muro]

As expected your videos continue to get better. Another one to put in the Video section. Probably gonna have to do a stricter quality control since we have so many vids now. Exciting times.

 

[Gatoray]

Guys, so here's a thought.

If the Standard Custom Moves project or whatever allows us to use a powersaves for the 3DS to get all the customs then transfer them over to tournament Wii Us, what's stopping us from "hacking" a smooth lander equipment with 0 stat boosts and putting the build on tournament Wii Us? I've heard that hacked equipment is a thing, and if there is any serious interest in this mode, why not dive deeper? Maybe even include a 0-stat Moon Launcher equip just to be consistent with the current DIY method (However, I'm honestly not sure how balanced Moon Launcher is, it seems like characters with good Up-smashes get a slightly unfair buff).

Is anyone going to stop talking and start experimenting in tournament? Who is going to be the leader of this movement? SS? TLoc? VGBC? CT? Anyone?

 

[Smashingveteran]

Hey dudes. I played this at Magfest with a room full of people and we had a blast. Unfortunately, all those replays are gone now. But I played a few matches with a friend online the other day. I can't upload frequently so I'll only upload more if I conveniently can.
So here's the match we played. We were really just testing characters out. This was my first time experimenting with DK's up-special.

 

[VeggieSteel]

I agree. Certain customs could make characters a lot better, plus it opens up more variety. I've been testing out a lot of customs too, and from what I can see nothing stands out as broken, besides the stuff we already know is like the Villagers trip tree/exploding balloon combo. If anything this will allow for characters to have a bit better recovery or another attacking option if they want.

Like Bowser's claw dashing, or DK's Kong Cyclone, Links boomerang, etc.

I'm pro-customs as well. In general, custom moves tend to help characters with large weaknesses, rather than making the top tiers better. Plus, some characters have such a nerfed recovery in SLHG to the point they're nearly unplayable. For example, I feel like Dr. Mario would be really good if he could actually get back to the stage, but he's pretty frustrating to play as with default specials. Until someone shows a degenerate strategy using customs in SLHG, I see no reason to ban them based on what "might" happen. As far as them being a hassle to unlock, there have been several automated ways of getting customs. Or, you can unlock them for just the characters you play relatively quickly in the right game modes.

 

[DNeon]

Just wondering if anybody knew of any videos of Zelda in this? Someone in the reddit thread said she was good against fast fallers, so if there's video proof of my bae being a contender I'd love to see it. Also I reckon that if customs were on then her Phantom Strike and Din's Flare would probably be mandatory for the moves to even have a chance of being used.

 

[Muro]

Guys, so here's a thought.

If the Standard Custom Moves project or whatever allows us to use a powersaves for the 3DS to get all the customs then transfer them over to tournament Wii Us, what's stopping us from "hacking" a smooth lander equipment with 0 stat boosts and putting the build on tournament Wii Us? I've heard that hacked equipment is a thing, and if there is any serious interest in this mode, why not dive deeper? Maybe even include a 0-stat Moon Launcher equip just to be consistent with the current DIY method (However, I'm honestly not sure how balanced Moon Launcher is, it seems like characters with good Up-smashes get a slightly unfair buff).

Is anyone going to stop talking and start experimenting in tournament? Who is going to be the leader of this movement? SS? TLoc? VGBC? CT? Anyone?

0/0/0 is not easily attainable by everyone. Also, 0/0/0 is not any better than any set of stats. Both the SL badge and the HG already change the game, some small stat change is irrelevant, so long as it's consistent across the board. Plus, the stat difference is so small it doesn't even have an impact in the game. I'm interested though if the same method used for custom moves can be used for this, just to speed things up at big tournaments. As for moon launcher, read this post.

Hey dudes. I played this at Magfest with a room full of people and we had a blast. Unfortunately, all those replays are gone now. But I played a few matches with a friend online the other day. I can't upload frequently so I'll only upload more if I conveniently can.
So here's the match we played. We were really just testing characters out. This was my first time experimenting with DK's up-special.

Nice match man, it even has na amsah tech lmao. Added to the OP. DK's up special is very good offstage, just jump out and Up-B where you think they'll be, if you get the right hitbox, the red lightning should come right after did you use the SL/ML/II set?

I'm pro-customs as well. In general, custom moves tend to help characters with large weaknesses, rather than making the top tiers better. Plus, some characters have such a nerfed recovery in SLHG to the point they're nearly unplayable. For example, I feel like Dr. Mario would be really good if he could actually get back to the stage, but he's pretty frustrating to play as with default specials. Until someone shows a degenerate strategy using customs in SLHG, I see no reason to ban them based on what "might" happen. As far as them being a hassle to unlock, there have been several automated ways of getting customs. Or, you can unlock them for just the characters you play relatively quickly in the right game modes.

Ok seems like this is the most popular opinion now, let me expand a bit on my own. Before anything else let me say I'd take any SLHG tournament I can get, customs or not, and I think it would be very hype regardless.

But I don't like customs for several reasons. I think customs severely reduce the complexity of the game in many cases. Take DK for example. Let's say you're juggling someone, so maybe you'll go for a back air, you know if you hit you got a followup comming (a tilt or a dash attack or another aerial...whatever), and if you miss (airdodge) you got a frame trap, maybe you just landed and do an up-tilt, which combos into other stuff or sets up another frame trap, or maybe your back air frame trapped into another back air or up air allowing you to continue the juggle. This also takes very careful spacing to allow you the best option possible, after all your opponent can also throw out an aerial instead of air dodging, so you want to space your back air to beat that too, but you don't want to space too far away or you get no followup. This is a good test of skill from both players. Now imagine you have his custom up-b... all the above goes out the window, Up-B is the best bet in any case. It's safe with almost no lag and super armor, and it probably beats the air dodge too. It's disjointed with a huge windbox so it takes some very simple spacing... at the end of the day, you have to agree it doesn't take nearly the same skill as the scenario above.

Offstage it's the same thing. With the normal Up-B you'll have to have good timing to get the right hitbox, and good spacing to avoid being hit. With the wind up-b you just kinda throw it out and hope it janks your opponent's recovery.

So yes, DK is better, but is also a lot less interesting to play. I could make the case for a lot of other customs like pikachu's heavy side B etc. This is only from a depth point of view.

I also agree that custom moves cover a lot of characters' flaws. I don't think that's a good thing, I think a lot of characters have a certain style to them which is based around their strengths and weaknesses and if you remove the weaknesses they become sort of "samey". Pikachu has low kill power but a good gimping game. If he's allowed his custom side b he becomes another character who will poke at you (or in SLHG case combo you) until kill % and then use his finisher, instead of actually having to use his gimping tools.

Characters need to have flaws to be exciting. You can't style on someone if he doesn't a flaw. Covering those flaws eliminates unique playstyles. Imagine if melee had custom moves, everyone would be getting their recoveries buffed. So now Peach has lost her unique strength, and falco has lost his unique flaw. Probably better balance, and melee would still be exciting as **** to watch, but I doubt it would be as exciting as it is right now if you couldn't gimp as easily.

The last point I'd like to make is that by buffing certain characters you are indirectly making life harder on other characters. DK takes a lot of punishment from DHD's camp game, but at least he has a weapon in SLHG, he can get him out of the stage and gimp him. Well that's gone in customs, he'll get camped to hell and back and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not very familiar with these characters, so this example may be a little off, but the point stands, not everyone benefits equally from customs, and some characters will lose viability because of them. Also, certain characters are just not gonna be viable. No amount of custom moves will make Link viable in tournament, he's just a bad character. And that's the case for many characters in low tier. If we just allow them all I don't think we'll change the tournament viable characters too much, some show up more, some show up less, but the game as a whole becomes less interesting.

On top of all this they're hard to get as hell, which begs the question why bother?

That said, not all customs are bad, but we can't really set a criteria for banning certain customs and letting others continue based on how "interesting" they are. It's just too subjective and a bad criteria, so that's why I advocate for banning them.

I'd remind you of my opening sentence now, I'd love a SLHG tournament and/or videos, customs or no customs. I just think no-customs will be the best version of SLHG in the end. Maybe for the sake of variety and fun we could allow them in doubles though, since that gameplay tends to be more chaotic anyway and with less really precise spacing.

 

[Gatoray]

Thanks for the post redirect, Muro. It makes sense now that moon launcher is balanced. I'm really really hoping that the special smash online glitch won't be patched. I'm starting to really enjoy this mode, especially Falco, OMG Falco.

 

[Rynhardt]

clipped for length

It's not that you're wrong, you're right in saying allowing characters to change their strategy makes it harder for characters that may already be struggling, but here's the way I see it.

I started slugging as Ness, things barely feel different so I searched amongst my secondaries for a character that really embraced the mode, and Bowser Jr feels like that character to me, particularly when I custom him out. As I continued to play him, I realized how this single custom move turned Bowser Jr in to a monster, not in power but in available options. A character who mind-gamed you 12% at a time in vanilla now had those mindgames but also huge punishes, strings, and such a deep neutral game. I fell in love with the mode because it gave me what people enjoy about melee without losing its identity, plenty of options and an environment where mistakes are less forgiving.

But out of fear of giving other characters in the cast a hard time, we could remove this option on Jr so other characters can have an easier time fighting him. But to me, that feels the same as banning spacies in melee. It's not an objectively bad thing, if so many players felt that by banning spacies we open up the melee cast, the competitive/tournament format should reflect those ideals. However, players making this choice need to understand that by banning spacies, you are removing the most in-depth options at the cost of having more basic options. This favors the player who learns more about matchups versus engine/character mastery, which is what vanilla smash 4 does naturally, which is okay for the game to do. It's its own game, it's not melee.

This is why I do not oppose your logic, but why I want to make sure everyone who tries slugging experiences everything smash 4 has to offer to enrich the mode. We have seen the effect of tournament banning of different aspects of Smash 4, and it is usually a death sentence for certain things like stages that now have to be fought for when they were never guilty in the first place (Skyloft, but that's a different debate), because players, casual, competitive, or pro, will never practice them and form their own opinion.

While playing and signal boosting this mode, it is not my intention to thrust it in to a competitive scene, but for players who get involved to find what they love about it, that they would find that and continue playing it, and mastering it, as opposed to being told that they should love it because it is Better Smash 4. Desire to master something they come to love because it is fun will lead to a competitive scene, and if that thing should be found in customs as it was for me, I do not want to risk players never getting to find that, or finding it and feeling guilty because they believe playing and mastering it will be worthless in the long run.

I do not believe we need to rush to define a tournament-sanctioned format for slugging. It should be made clear to those who get involved that the format is still in development, and as the mode was first derived from experimentation, continued experimentation needs to be performed while it is still being developed. Until players have exhausted every possible way to slug and can come to a conclusion as to the best way to play it, the format will remain in development. Even then, tournaments can still be had while in development as vanilla smash 4 had done, because as I explained when pushing for customs in vanilla, we need a tournament with customs to see the worst customs has to offer. One of those worsts we have seen was the extreme trippy Villager, and even that was proven to be beatable. So while customs off slugging may be a safe way to determine player skill, customs on slugging would be the most effective way to see what the format needs and what it does not in order to be the best slugging format possible.

 

[Muro]

.

I agree on some points and disagree on others. I think Bowser is a better example than Bowser Jr. for the point you're making. Bowser gets a little slide which allows him to start combos safely and doesn't severely simplify his playstyle. It also is not a broken recovery move so we're good on that front. Ganon is another good example of this, his recovery becomes better but not impossible to intercept. Bowser Jr. however pretty much can come back from anything in no customs, and a strictly horizontal side B makes him pretty hard to edgeguard. His recovery was good, but now it's too good, to the point where the complexity of the game is compromised.

I feel I didn't explain it very well in my previous post. I don't think we should ban customs to give some characters a chance. I think allowing customs for character balance is a bad reason, because it simplifies a lot of the characters metagame and it possibly doesn't even do much for balance. Also balance is what sm4sh is good at already, we don't need to balance it any better.

This goes against your point about melee, in that scenario I'd be advocating for not banning fox and falco for the sake of balance, instead let them stay in the game, and let them wreck the low tiers, because the metagame as a whole (of which we'll see more of the high tiers) is more interesting that way. Sacrificing complexity for the sake of balance is not the way to go, especially when that balance might not even be attainable.

I feel doubles would be a good place to have a custom meta.

At any rate SLHG is gonna be great, your stream yesterday was pretty cool. And in the end I'll get behind whatever brings more interest to SLHG. If that's custom moves so be it.

Also love the terminology built around 'slug'. 'slugging it out' 'slugfest' the possibilities are endless lool

 

[Rynhardt]

Also love the terminology built around 'slug'. 'slugging it out' 'slugfest' the possibilities are endless lool

Above all else, customs or not, stage list, the thing I advocate the most is calling the format slugging.

 

[ZADD]

it simplifies a lot of the characters metagame and it possibly doesn't even do much for balance... Sacrificing complexity for the sake of balance is not the way to go..

Also love the terminology built around 'slug'. 'slugging it out' 'slugfest' the possibilities are endless lool

I definitely agree. Although I do think customs are fun to play with in Vanilla Sm4sh, they do more to hurt progress in this mode than help. Besides, the focus of SLHG is to further emphasize strengths and possibilities of A-move strings. Customs moves like Dongnado and Kirby super hammer invalidate aggression in a really dumb way. I would argue SLHG itself is much more of a balanced boost to Vanilla's meta than customs ever were, but hey that's just me.
A few deal breakers for customs in SLHG for me:

-All windbox customs, seriously. Way too cheesy...
-Crazy out of nowhere aggresive customs (Palutena, Bowser Jr., Falcon punch), the whole point of SLHG is to make normals do this, customs doing it too is overkill IMO.
-Meta-defining moves such as Trip Seed and Heavy Skull Bash, Dongnado too. I guarantee all these chracters are fine without these OP gimmicks, adding them in only invalidates other chracters, which is bad.


Wouldn't "Slugging" imply it's slow, like a slug?...

 

[Muro]

Wouldn't "Slugging" imply it's slow, like a slug?...

Friend Zadd, here's the definition of slugfest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugfest

See the second bullet point: "A fight match characterized by much heavy punching."

edit: and an example.

 

[ZADD]

Oh i know, but it we call these slug matches im positive people will make my connection as well. After all we want this be perceived as much quicker than normal sm4sh, but call it whatever you want

 

[Muro]

Oh i know, but it we call these slug matches im positive people will make my connection as well. After all we want this be perceived as much quicker than normal sm4sh, but call it whatever you want

It's more of an inside joke, SLHG or Smooth Gravity will do nice as the name. We don't need to take ourselves too seriously.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Wouldn't "Slugging" imply it's slow, like a slug?...

THATS WHAT I SAID. Lol, but either way I'll say I'm against calling it slugging. Maybe I'm just against slugs, but Its the opposite of what this mode achieves.

And I'm still going to push for customs. What we just saw with Bowser Jr. is the tip of the iceberg. It makes him a worthy, terrifying opponent. We already know of all of Palutenas customs and the only ones I can see being used anyways are Super speed, lightweight, and maybe explosive flame. Bowser's custom side B 3 with the claw adds in combo potential and a great approach option. Like I said, the tip of the iceberg.

Plus this mode is brand new in the way that its becoming more popular. Saying no to customs right now closes off a door to potentially amazing characters. If we do find a custom move or moves that appear to be broken in this game mode then yes we will ban it. But not right now. I want to see experimentation. And with that comes how well your opponent can adapt to the scenario.

 

[micstar615]

Really glad to see some interest growing in this mode the videos you guys have been posting are so hype too!

 

[ZADD]

And I'm still going to push for customs. What we just saw with Bowser Jr. is the tip of the iceberg. It makes him a worthy, terrifying opponent. We already know of all of Palutenas customs and the only ones I can see being used anyways are Super speed, lightweight, and maybe explosive flame. Bowser's custom side B 3 with the claw adds in combo potential and a great approach option.

Bowser Jr. is completely fine without customs. He has setups, range, combo potential, and 2 (maybe 3 with cart) projectiles. I feel like customs can be used to supplement poorer tech skill, in favor of gimmick "figure this out or you lose" situations. I personally have put a lot of time into my Palutena (Default) in SLHG, and woo boy she don't need customs. D-throw > U-smash true combos, and not to mention her insane zoning game when most fighters are forced to stay eye level with her. These are just parts of my point, that customs can be fun, but janky and abusive in SLHG. Tiers are going to naturally form for this, steep or not, and players shouldn't be able to mess with that by simply picking the best setup for each situation. There's alreadymuch to remember as is, and with all the shenanigans that come with customs I'd say it'd be excessive on a large scale.

edited: I'd be fine with players using a distinguished better (but not broken) setup for some characters that would be really lacking otherwise (for example 2122 Ganon, Dash Swipe Bowser etc.) But what I dont want to happen is the infinite counterpick potential of having multiple choices of each character depending on the situation. That kinda downplays the smooth lander factor a lot and i feel is better reserved for Vanilla Sm4sh.

 

[Chucknoxus]

Do I still need to set the rate to 0.9 with the new build?

 

[Muro]

Do I still need to set the rate to 0.9 with the new build?

nope, this setup works well with the normal 1.0 kb ratio.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

edited: I'd be fine with players using a distinguished better (but not broken) setup for some characters that would be really lacking otherwise (for example 2122 Ganon, Dash Swipe Bowser etc.) But what I dont want to happen is the infinite counterpick potential of having multiple choices of each character depending on the situation. That kinda downplays the smooth lander factor a lot and i feel is better reserved for Vanilla Sm4sh.

I agree with this one. I feel like we can have stock characters, and then a general "This is the best set" setup. With maybe 1 custom move changed depending on personal preference. Like maybe you want the dash grab instead of dash claw for example.

Also, who all checked out the stream? It was really fun.