Wave⁂
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 11,870
OH SHI
JUST REMEMBERED I CAN MAKE POLLS
asdf
Can't post poll in Lab, though, so move me.
[collapse="65 HP, 67 Atk, 77 Def, 135 SpA, 77 SpD, 124 Spe"]
[collapse="80 HP, 70 Atk, 88 Def, 110 SpA, 80 SpD, 117 Spe"]80 HP/70 Atk/88 Def/110 SpA/80 SpD/117 Spe
545 BTS
I changed the EVs around
Giving him 80/88/80 HP and Defenses gives him a good amount of bulk. Unless he's hit with an Ice Attack, he's not getting OHKO'd. He can be 2HKO'd but never OHKO'd.
70 Atk is that it's not worthless. As pointed out before, an Adamant CB Outrage is a 2HKO on Blissey and since this guy is a dragon, he'll probably have a respectable physical move-pool to run a little bit of a gimmicky physical set.
110 SpA is high special attack but not rediculous. It's the same as Jolteon's and we all know that little ****er can hurt. This also allows him to be incredibly powerful under the effects of sunlight but not too powerful when the sun isn't beaming. It's an nice number, especially since Dragon attacks are only resisted by steels, so he can't single handedly plow through a team unless help is there.
117 Spe is an odd number. It forces some weird EVing and it also allows him to outrun Starmie, who otherwise would revenge kill the living hell out of this Poke. Nice high speed that isn't ridiculous balances out the fact he's semi-bulky.[/collapse]
[collapse="95 HP, 70 Atk, 90 Def, 121 SpA, 85 SpD, 119 Spe or 95 HP, 75 Atk, 95 Def, 121 SpA, 95 SpD, 119 Spe"]Personally, I'm looking for something with a little bulk, but not a lot, with a good amount of Power, but not overkill like Zook was. I'm looking for fast, but not TOO fast. I don't have the HUGE explanation or all the calcs I'm seeing from art, but I might as well throw it out there-
80 HP- Just about the lowest HP stat I can think of that something can get away with and have real bulk to it. Will explain a bit more later with defenses.
70 Attack- Going off Art's Calcs here, but 70 is a bit more of a reliable number than 67, not by much, but at least the number will roll better.
119 Speed- I'm getting to this first because it's pretty important for the rest of the stats. 119 is a high enough threshold to outspeed things like Starmie or Gengar without Max speed unless they're wielding a Scarf, but slow enough for at least ONE trapper to outspeed it, Dugtrio, which is now at least decent with NU to OU buffing it.
90 Defense- This thing NEEDS something that represents physical bulk. Sharpedo, Glalie, and Mamoswine rely on power Ice Shards to get rid of SmashCAP 4 (Weavile is a fast effer and just outspeeds it and Ice Punches so you're dead anyways lol), and this defense will at least give it a fighting chance assuming it is packing Thick Fat.
80 Sp Defense- Most Ice Beams and HP Ices will still tear through you like nothing even with this decent stat, but that's not the point, seeing as with 119 speed you can outpace a lot of things like Starmie and prevent that from happening. Like what Wave said, a lot of your resistances tend to be on the special side, so to keep this thing alive when abusing said resistances is a key factor.
121 Sp Attack- Pretty much a number to round it all off. It's a high stat, but not THAT high, and it doesn't need to be. Its speed stat is still ridiculous, and it has something resembling Bulk. Couple those factors in with this and you have something worth note.
80/70/90/121/80/119
BST: 560
Fast, strong, can take a hit with thick fat, and can tear through things with Solar Power. What's not to like?
BTW, if we bring this to legendary status, I'd go BST of 580 with 95/70/90/121/85/119. If we bring it to main-game Psuedo Status, I'd go BST of 600 with 95/75/95/121/95/119.[/collapse]
JUST REMEMBERED I CAN MAKE POLLS
asdf
Can't post poll in Lab, though, so move me.
[collapse="65 HP, 67 Atk, 77 Def, 135 SpA, 77 SpD, 124 Spe"]
[/collapse]372 Atk vs 176 Def & 291 HP (30 Base Power): 240 - 284 (82.47% - 97.59%)
That's Azelf's lack of bulk with our CaP's Thick Fat and current typing taking a Max Attack Technician LO Ice Shardand only dieing 58.97% of the time after Stealth Rock. Considering that I was mentioning how Azelf has bulk with investment, and how I wanted this to have to choose between speed, power, and bulk based on investment, I think that Azelf's style of bulk gets the job done right.
So here's my input on this: I want it to be broke under the sun. Like, I want stall teams to SCREAM in terror over this pokemon under the sun. So I think that a Modest Specs Solarbeam should be able to 2HKO Blissey.
910 Atk vs 344 Def & 677 HP (120 Base Power): 340 - 402 (50.22% - 59.38%)
That will be my current spread with a Modest Nature, Specs Solarbeam under the sun. You have a 75.48% chance of straight-up 2HKOing Blissey with no support, while SR or anything else will guarantee the KO. And this was done on a 104 HP/ 152 Sp. Defense version as well.
With this we have to consider: locking ourselves into Solarbeam? How will that do against switch-ins?
Let's take Ultimario's favorite pokemon, Tyranitar.
607 Atk vs 354 Def & 342 HP (60 Base Power): 222 - 264 (64.91% - 77.19%)
So we still take a chunk: and considering Tyranitar is a biiiiiiig problem to Sunny Day teams and you'll find yourself OK with these numbers. Also, if we decide to allow this to have Focus Blast, which I recommend we do:
553 Atk vs 344 Def & 677 HP (120 Base Power): 362 - 426 (53.47% - 62.92%)
This is Timid, Life Orb Solar Power Focus Blast hitting that same Blissey. 2HKOs 100% of the time, but requires prediction and good coin-flipping abilities. If we want to give it something like maybe Aura Sphere, we go down to:
553 Atk vs 344 Def & 677 HP (90 Base Power): 270 - 318 (39.88% - 46.97%)
Which I find pretty OK, honestly. 1 layer of SR and spikes seal the deal if they come into Solarbeam, and with Aura Sphere Tyranitar becomes less of a problem.
Remember, all of these calculations are done with the sun up. We are TRYING to break this in the sun, so all of these calculations should be fine with the reader. So you know, all of these calculations come off of 135 Base Special Attack.
Now for the attack stat. I suggest 67 Base Attack. Why?
382 Atk vs 130 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 379 - 447 (53.08% - 62.61%)
Adamant CB Outrage 2HKOs Blissey. Congrats: now what? Exactly. It's enough to be somewhat of a successful gimmick, but really don't bother with it. Moving on to speed.
I was trying to think of what we should use for a good speed number. I eventually decided I wanted it to beat Choice Scarf Scizor, which while I'd be the only one to use it, wouldn't just come in and just U-Turn off of it. So here I'll be going with 124 Base Speed. While I only needed 122 base speed to beat Scarfed Scizor, I decided to up it a bit so that a player can more choose the threshold of their speed. Extra bits go to bulk: which is definitely going to be the hardest part.
So now we move to bulk: I keep comparing this to Azelf's in terms of how it can be bulky, and here's where I'm going to have to REALLY work to make sure that I don't overdo it. Let me recap what I have so far:
135 Base Sp. Attack
124 Base Speed
67 Base Attack
326 Base Stat Total
OK. So you look at Azelf's bulk and it has a 75 HP/ 70 Defensive stat spread. I want this CaP to have this same initial bulk without investing a lot into HP. By doing this, extra bits of EVs that go into HP do a lot more than they would previously. I don't want the defensive stats to be obviously bulky, though, so I have to keep this element of bulk somewhat hidden while being abuse-able. Just multiplying Azelf's HP by his defense gives us the number 51216. So to find an approximate HP number, we just divide this number by whatever the non-EVed defensive stat is. So if I want to bring the defensive stats to, say, base 77, then we take the number 51216 and divide by 190 and round up. In this case we get 270, which when work backwards you get ~65 base HP in there. And if I ran calcs on that with our CaP, we'd get:
372 Atk vs 190 Def & 271 HP (30 Base Power): 224 - 264 (82.66% - 97.42%)
The percentages for getting the kill are EXACTLY the same for both this spread and the Azelf's defensive spread. But let's take into account: we do NOT need max speed on this CaP. In fact, at most we may only need enough to beat base 120 pokemon. So by bringing down our speed a few notches and putting some into HP, we get the spread:
SWFCaP4 @ Not Life Orb/ self-damaging item
Thick Fat: Timid
32 HP, 224 Speed, 252 Sp. Attack
We go down to:
372 Atk vs 190 Def & 279 HP (30 Base Power): 224 - 264 (80.29% - 94.62%)
Which after SR is now only 41.03% of a OHKO. Consider how that would go if we used Azelf's defenses and you get:
372 Atk vs 176 Def & 299 HP (30 Base Power): 240 - 284 (80.27% - 94.98%)
That's a 46.15% chance of being KOed with SR. If we jump to what happens when you max HP on both, my spread goes:
372 Atk vs 190 Def & 334 HP (30 Base Power): 224 - 264 (67.07% - 79.04%)
Azelf's goes:
372 Atk vs 176 Def & 354 HP (30 Base Power): 240 - 284 (67.80% - 80.23%)
Not a terribly great difference, I admit. But it is there, and it can be useful if you decide to EV is properly.
So my current spread is 65 HP, 67 Attack, 77 Defense, 124 Speed, 135 Sp. Attack, and 77 Sp. Defense. Stands out as a special sweeper, no doubt: but you know as well as I do that there's more to it than that.
btw, BST is only 545 at the moment, so if you want this to reach "Dragon status" with a slightly different spread, I'd be willing to change things around a little.
[collapse="80 HP, 70 Atk, 88 Def, 110 SpA, 80 SpD, 117 Spe"]80 HP/70 Atk/88 Def/110 SpA/80 SpD/117 Spe
545 BTS
I changed the EVs around
Giving him 80/88/80 HP and Defenses gives him a good amount of bulk. Unless he's hit with an Ice Attack, he's not getting OHKO'd. He can be 2HKO'd but never OHKO'd.
70 Atk is that it's not worthless. As pointed out before, an Adamant CB Outrage is a 2HKO on Blissey and since this guy is a dragon, he'll probably have a respectable physical move-pool to run a little bit of a gimmicky physical set.
110 SpA is high special attack but not rediculous. It's the same as Jolteon's and we all know that little ****er can hurt. This also allows him to be incredibly powerful under the effects of sunlight but not too powerful when the sun isn't beaming. It's an nice number, especially since Dragon attacks are only resisted by steels, so he can't single handedly plow through a team unless help is there.
117 Spe is an odd number. It forces some weird EVing and it also allows him to outrun Starmie, who otherwise would revenge kill the living hell out of this Poke. Nice high speed that isn't ridiculous balances out the fact he's semi-bulky.[/collapse]
[collapse="95 HP, 70 Atk, 90 Def, 121 SpA, 85 SpD, 119 Spe or 95 HP, 75 Atk, 95 Def, 121 SpA, 95 SpD, 119 Spe"]Personally, I'm looking for something with a little bulk, but not a lot, with a good amount of Power, but not overkill like Zook was. I'm looking for fast, but not TOO fast. I don't have the HUGE explanation or all the calcs I'm seeing from art, but I might as well throw it out there-
80 HP- Just about the lowest HP stat I can think of that something can get away with and have real bulk to it. Will explain a bit more later with defenses.
70 Attack- Going off Art's Calcs here, but 70 is a bit more of a reliable number than 67, not by much, but at least the number will roll better.
119 Speed- I'm getting to this first because it's pretty important for the rest of the stats. 119 is a high enough threshold to outspeed things like Starmie or Gengar without Max speed unless they're wielding a Scarf, but slow enough for at least ONE trapper to outspeed it, Dugtrio, which is now at least decent with NU to OU buffing it.
90 Defense- This thing NEEDS something that represents physical bulk. Sharpedo, Glalie, and Mamoswine rely on power Ice Shards to get rid of SmashCAP 4 (Weavile is a fast effer and just outspeeds it and Ice Punches so you're dead anyways lol), and this defense will at least give it a fighting chance assuming it is packing Thick Fat.
80 Sp Defense- Most Ice Beams and HP Ices will still tear through you like nothing even with this decent stat, but that's not the point, seeing as with 119 speed you can outpace a lot of things like Starmie and prevent that from happening. Like what Wave said, a lot of your resistances tend to be on the special side, so to keep this thing alive when abusing said resistances is a key factor.
121 Sp Attack- Pretty much a number to round it all off. It's a high stat, but not THAT high, and it doesn't need to be. Its speed stat is still ridiculous, and it has something resembling Bulk. Couple those factors in with this and you have something worth note.
80/70/90/121/80/119
BST: 560
Fast, strong, can take a hit with thick fat, and can tear through things with Solar Power. What's not to like?
BTW, if we bring this to legendary status, I'd go BST of 580 with 95/70/90/121/85/119. If we bring it to main-game Psuedo Status, I'd go BST of 600 with 95/75/95/121/95/119.[/collapse]
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