SmashCAP 4: Counters Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

[SmashCAP 4]
Start date: 8/1/10
End date: --/--/--
Concept: Sunnyside Up
Type: Grass / Dragon
Ability: Solar Power / Thick Fat
Base Stats: 65 / 67 / 77 / 135 / 77 / 124

Concept: Sunnyside Up
Analysis: Face it. Sunny Day sucks in the OU metagame. Sandstorm has Tyranitar, and benefits a bunch of appropriate Pokemon. Hail has Abomasnow and to a lesser extent Walrein, Froslass, and Mamoswine. Rain became a dominant force by Kingdra itself, and not only that but there are more viable sweepers under the Rain such as Kabutops and Ludicolo, etc. The problem with Sunny Day is that the benefits are just too wrongly distributed. Grass-types who through Cholorphyll benefit the most from Sunny Day and Solarbeam are absolutely murdered by the 50% boost in Fire-type attacks. The Fire-type Pokemon who enjoy the said boost will also gain a 50% resistance to Water-type attacks, but lack the Speed increase. How could we craft such a Pokemon so that it gains the benefits of Sunny Day, while keeping it viable in the metagame?
Extra: Taking note, this is basically a "Kingdra in the Sun" concept. A Pokemon who through typing, ability, and stats would be able to fully abuse the weather and benefits of Sunny Day.

Well, alongside the Name Submissions come the Counters Discussion thread. List and discuss anything about counters involving SmashCAP 4. Anything goes whether it be counters, checks, methods around counters / checks, methods for other counters / checks, etc. Explain reasoning and how this could discourage SmashCAP 4 from being used on a Sunny Day team. Keep in mind having viable counters and checks are what make a Pokemon balanced.

Have fun theorymoning!

 

[Circa]

Blissey and maybe Snorlax.

Yup, I think I got them all.

...if it doesn't get Focus Blast then Tyranitar and Heatran as well. If it gets Earth Power though, then no Heatran.

 

[Fuelbi]

Anything that's high in SpD

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Anything that's high in SpD

Kthnxbai.

Anyways, Heatran seems to be a nice check at the very least, resisting both of SmashCAP 4's STAB moves, and has STAB Fire Blast to hurt it under the sun, especially if SmashCAP 4 isn't using Solar Power.

Tyranitar was brought up from the start, since switching in provides that immediate Sandstorm activation. I don't know how much something like Energy Ball or Leaf Storm would do to Tyranitar, but I would at least bet it's a hefty amount.

More to come later.

 

[UltiMario]

Uhh.... how about the NU to OUs?

Sharpedo checks it...

Ditto is a better version of it (trololololo?)

Maybe if we give Noctowl some better attacking stats and SLIGHTLY better defenses it COULD counter it.

Hmmm

This could be problematic. It's like if we actually succeeded with Zook.

 

[Wave⁂]

Heatran, Tyranitar, Blissey, maybe Cresselia?

 

[UltiMario]

Or it could be like Mence who has a lot more counters than there are on paper.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Salamence and checks reminded me of Scizor. Scizor doesn't mind the resists to Dragon and Grass and so can switch in with proper prediction and blast away with a hefty Superpower.

Of course there are issues with that in and of itself but I'll save those for a later time.

 

[UltiMario]

Or even a bullet punch with those terribad defenses.

 

[ss118]

Well what "checks" it entirely depends on what it's running, as well if it is Sunny or not.

In general, I feel steels should be a good general check to this: unless of course it is Sunny because Weather ball would **** it up. I also think it should get Aura Sphere: it keeps Tyranitar from being a full-fledged counter, and also does a good job at warding off Heatran. Sharpedo, of course, checks this: until you run a few amount of HP EVs with Thick Fat. And then it just dies. Thick Fat also helps with Heatran + Infernape.

There are actually a good amount of counters for the Thick Fat one and enough checks for the Solar power one: just as I wanted it. =)

few things of note: I want this to NOT get Draco meteor(Latias+Mence are[were?] bad enough with 110 base SpA), but it should have Leaf Storm(much more easily resisted). I also don't think this shouldn't get any type of special fire type move except for Sunny Day(but then again we knew that).

Should this get Growth? That would greatly affect the amount of pokemon that check it. Common sense says "no", but then again we could test it. Blissey gets barely 2HKOed by Timid LO +1 Aura Sphere: too powerful? Possibly. But then Sharpedo takes a big chunk: decisions decisions.

Yeah I prob shouldn't be talking about movepool but it really helps with counters + ****.

Edit: 591 Atk vs 190 Def & 271 HP (60 Base Power): 201 - 237 (74.17% - 87.45%)

That is 0 HP EVs and 0 defense EVs against CB Tech base 130 attack STAB BP. I think for a "glass cannon" to NEVER be OHKOed even after SR is pretty good. Of course without Sun you do **** back but meh.....

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Depending on our distribution of Fire-type moves (again lightly treading on movepool) Skarmory will easily switchin and laugh at everything. Energy Ball / Leaf Storm / Dragon Pulse / Earth Power or whatever means nothing to it.

This thread will and should continue while Movepool Discussions start up.

 

[Circa]

Depending on our distribution of Fire-type moves (again lightly treading on movepool) Skarmory will easily switchin and laugh at everything. Energy Ball / Leaf Storm / Dragon Pulse / Earth Power or whatever means nothing to it.

This thread will and should continue while Movepool Discussions start up.

Well you'd be dumb to not give it HP Fire when it's supposed to be in the sun.

And if all else fails, you can always throw a Weavile on your team for the revenge kill.

If and only if you're that desperate, of course.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'm saying like I don't know if SmashCAP 4 will get like Flamethrower, Heat Wave, etc.

 

[Circa]

I'm saying like I don't know if SmashCAP 4 will get like Flamethrower, Heat Wave, etc.

Actually, I like the idea of giving it Heat Wave maybe. I'd say that if we had to give it a Fire-type attack, that'd be the one. Weaker than Flamethrower without the 30% burn effect, and also a little inaccurate. Kinda like a risky-ish but decently powerful choice. Also, considering it does have the ability of Solar Power, it would make sense if it could generate heat on its own at the very least. I just have the same issue as you guys have that even that might be too much.

I know this isn't movepool stuff, but as Articanus said, it does help with counters to consider possibilities.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Of course. Treading on movepools is perfectly fine for this stage of Counters Discussion, since we're mainly bringing up possible ways of takking on certain checks and counters. Once we actually get to the movepool stages we'll be reworking through this. ^^

 

[ss118]

Heat Wave is meh: I think we should force it to be able to "bypass" counters ONLY when used in sun. Steels should be a great counter. Though I'm not sure how Skarmory/ any steel would take Aura Sphere....

Again, I wish someone had mentioned the idea of Vacuum Wave BEFORE it got Thick Fat. But whatever.

 

[UltiMario]

With 252HP I calc that FO -> Ice Shard does 105% damage Max and 80% Min

So after SR and LO it always dies.

This thing can take literally no damage, it needs to be like an Expert Belt sweeper with Spin support lol

 

[ss118]

But if you switch out on the FO, then the point is moot: you've likely taken 22.5% and in return you've done the same back: except yu had to sac something to get in sharpedo.

Then sharpedo runs Pursuit and wears it down. But then if it has all three it severily limits itself.

Lets see how it plays out.

 

[Circa]

Heat Wave is meh: I think we should force it to be able to "bypass" counters ONLY when used in sun. Steels should be a great counter. Though I'm not sure how Skarmory/ any steel would take Aura Sphere....

Metagross, Jirachi, Bronzong, and I'd assume a specially defensive Skarmory/Forretress could probably take an Aura Sphere and manage to take advantage of the situation as well.

But this is all assuming the set, once again, doesn't carry HP Fire; which is pretty common to find on Grass-types to begin with.

EDIT: Nevermind about Metagross. LO Aura Sphere from base 135 Special Attack deals 43.8-51.7% to AgiliGross. Assuming SR is in play, it'll never get off more than one attack and may not even get one off. Jirachi definitely seems workable though. Probably the best Steel to take it on, bar Bronzong. Skarm and Forretress can at least manage to set up a layer or two of entry hazards, depending on damage rolls and whether or not you're running Lefties.

 

[mood4food77]

blissey is obvious

if this thing gets any fire move outside of HP Fire, it should be fire blast and flamethrower, nothing else

other than that, he seems like he could be a good counter to bulky water types

 

[Wave⁂]

Baskilisk @ Choice Specs
Modest / Solar Power
252 SpAtk
Leaf Storm
Draco Meteor
Overheat
who the **** cares filler

 

[ss118]

Earth Power

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Now, theorymon, I do not like.

 

[IceArrow]

An Ice Shard could OHKO him. Mamoswine, Weavile, and Cloyster could counter him.

 

[Smugleaf]

Counter =/= Check. A counter is something that can safely switch in on a move, which none of the pokemon you just listed can, they simply check Baskilisk. But to check something means you already lost a pokemon to give your check a free switch in, a reason Salamence was booted to ubers, because he had no pure counters outside of Cresselia, who is destroyed by the metagame.

 

[Wave⁂]

I am liking this new Smugleaf guy.

 

[mood4food77]

how about no fire move at all

i say give him earth power, it definitely works aesthetically, and with this, it keeps skarmory as a potential counter, forcing this poke to rely on HP fire or some other filler will keep him from running over everything that doesn't have priority

 

[Terywj [태리]]

How about we actually listen to what's going on and stop talking about giving certain moves to this Pokemon.

Fire-type moves doesn't mean Skarmory can't be a counter. Specially defensive variants still exist.

 

[mood4food77]

how the hell do you expect skarmory to take a SE base 140 Fire attack off of a base 135 special attack?

 

[Smugleaf]

How about we actually listen to what's going on and stop talking about giving certain moves to this Pokemon.

Fire-type moves doesn't mean Skarmory can't be a counter. Specially defensive variants still exist.

So you switch your Sp Def Skarm into Gengar?

Shadow Ball to Sp Def Skarm = 25.1% - 29.6%

Focus Blast to Sp Def Skarm = 50.3% - 59.3%

HP Fire to Sp Def Skarm = 59.3% - 70.1%

Gengar's three most common attacks against a Sp Def Skarm, any move followed by HP Fire beats Skarm after SR and lefties are taken into account. Skarm can't even counter Gengar, let alone something with more base special attack and possibly a better move than HP Fire.

What would Skarm be able to do to it anyway? Whirlwind it out? Brave Bird it for a 2HKO? This is not a counter, merely a check. I can see this pokemon becoming like Mence where it has no counters just because of it's STAB and possible fire move. The only thing that could even come close to countering it would be special defensive Heatran, but that's if it lacks HP Ground or Earth Power.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Well then. I don't know that stuff since I don't play OU, but we'll see what we have to work with, then. Skarmory at least has opportunities to switch-in with proper prediction, even if it is just to bait out a Fire-type move.

I'm pretty sure with SmashCAP 4's pitiful defenses Brave Bird is going to do a decent amount, depending on how many Attack EV are run.

 

[Smugleaf]

Modest Specs Solar Power Solarbeam to Standard WishBliss = 53.5% - 63.2%

Modest Specs Solar Power Solarbeam to Standard CurseLax = 64.1% - 75.6%

Bricks have been ****.

Also, what you have said is not the definition of countering something, it's playing around a weakness to a threat. "I can send in my Registeel on the baited Draco Meteor from Mence and kill it with Ice Punch." yet Mence has no counters in OU.

 

[ss118]

In case people are trying to figure this out still:

In the sun with Solar Power, this pokemon should have no counters.

With Thick Fat, the amount of checks this pokemon has should be reduced.

So here's what I believe:

General "checks": Sharpedo, Scizor, Mamoswine, Weavile, scarfed users(Flygon comes to mind, as does Staraptor), Zapdos, strong priority users(Lucario, Hirmontop).

Thick Fat, no sun counters: Blissey, Snorlax, Regice(lol), Zook(if it runs a steel plate), Cresselia, Crobat(607 Atk vs 196 Def & 374 HP (80 Base Power): 267 - 315 (71.39% - 84.22%), and that's modest specs dragon pulse vs max HP Bat), and some steel types.

 

[mood4food77]

i don't think avoiding blissey as a counter is possible
but the idea of crobat being a possible counter is pretty sweet, moving it into OU would be nice

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Crobat can take SmashCAP 4's Modest Choice Specs Dragon Pulse...? <333

 

[UltiMario]

In the sun with Solar Power, this pokemon should have no counters.

Scarf Tentacruel.

Oooooooooooh

 

[Terywj [태리]]

What exactly is Tentacruel going to do back? Sludge Bomb? And I don't know much about Tentacruel but how does it take an Earth Power?

 

[Wave⁂]

1. Ice Beam

2. Baskilisk might not get Earth Power

3. Modest Life Orb +1 Earth Power vs. standard Tentacruel: 81.9% - 96.7%

 

[UltiMario]

Anything else other than EP, even with Solar Power and Specs, won't KO the freaking fish while running standard, and with the scarf, can have enough attack Power to KO... and you could always run 252HP/4SpA/252SpD Calm :D

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Oh okay. Alright. Thank you for shedding the light.