SmashCAP 2 has a versatility problem

[UltiMario]

Lilibelle is a jack of all trades. One that can do so much of them so well. This thing is Deo-D plant forme. While some of these are joke sets or rather nonviable, here's a WHOPPING 13 SETS Lilibelle can run, about 9-10 of which have real potential to be used. I'm not going to explain Natures/Items/moves/EVs, just trust me that they're rather optimal.

Mixed Defensive Subseed:

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Calm / Shield Dust
252Def/4SpA/252SpD
Substitute
Leech Seed
Shadow Ball
Grass Knot / Thunderbolt

Specially Defensive/Special Threat Eliminating Subseed:

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Calm / Shield Dust
144HP/112SpA/252SpD
Substitute
Leech Seed
Thunderbolt / Sleep Powder
Shadow Ball

Stall:

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Calm / Immunity
4HP/252Def/252SpD
Leech Seed
Toxic
Protect
Pain Split

Revenge Killer and then some:

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Jolly / Shield Dust
24Atk/252Def/232Spe
Shadow Sneak
Destiny Bond
Sleep Powder
Pain Split / Memento

Trick Room:

Lilibelle@Leftovers/Focus Sash (Depends on where it is in team/what you’re afraid of)
Sassy / Shield Dust
252HP/144Def/112SpD
0 Spe IV
Trick Room
Sleep Powder
Knock Off / Destiny Bond / Will-O-Wisp / Leaf Storm
Knock Off / Destiny Bond / Will-O-Wisp / Leaf Storm

Status:

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Calm / Shield Dust
252HP/144Def/36SpD/76Spe
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp / Stun Spore
Sleep Powder
Grass Knot / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt

TrickScarf:

Lilibelle@Choice Scarf
Timid / Shield Dust
252HP/20SpA/236Spe
Trick
Sleep Powder
Leaf Storm
Shadow Ball

Life Orb:

Lilibelle@Life Orb
Timid / Shield Dust
64HP/252SpA/192Spe (32Def/252SpA/36SDef/188Spe w/ Pain Split)
Grass Knot
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt
HP Fire / Pain Split

Choice Scarf:

Lilibelle@Choice Scarf
Timid / Shield Dust
20HP/252SpA/236Spe
Leaf Storm
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Trick

Choice Specs:

Lilibelle@Choice Specs
Timid / Shield Dust
68HP/252SpA/188Spe
Leaf Storm
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast

Cleric:

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Calm / Shield Dust
4HP/252Def/252SpD
Aromatherapy
Leech Seed / Pain Split
Night Shade
Toxic / Sleep Powder / Will-o-Wisp / Stun Spore

Perish Trapper:

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Calm / Shield Dust
252HP/144Def/112SpD
Mean Look
Perish Song
Protect
Substitute / Leech Seed / Pain Split



If this doesn't show you guys Lilibelle has a SERIOUS problem that needs tweaking, then this will:

Lilibelle is a better TTar counter than TTar is a Lilibelle counter.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

This is going to be relevant when I post the SmashCAP Revisions Thread later on, so yeah.

You probably didn't need to make a thread for it, though.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

I kinda saw this coming when we decided for all statuses and Leech Seed.

Ulti, you and Mood4Food should chat. He was talking about this waaaaaay before you brought it up.

 

[UltiMario]

I typed that all out and Muk I was going to post it one way or another

Oh and before someone comes around and points it out, That Physically Defensive Subseeder? I sorta lied. Its not optimal at all, I didn't know what to do with making a set like that so I slapped a few things together that worked and hoped my Theorymoning is OK :V

Edit: No, he made 1 really good set. I made a bunch of really good sets. DIFFERENCE.

 

[Metal~Mario]

But is it really in need of tweaking?

It could just be sent to Ubers easily.

 

[UltiMario]

Pretty sure SmashCAP is supposed to be made for OU.

 

[Circa]

Celebi has 14 sets, all of which are viable.

That said, I don't really see how Lilibelle has a versatility problem, especially considering your first three sets are just variants of the same method (which, fyi, the EVs aren't actually optimal on any of your Seeding sets. Just run max-ish in both defenses to maximize Seed's healing potential).

Wait until we can actually test her before you start saying she has some supposed versatility problem. As far as I can tell, she can have 13 'viable' sets, but only two or three will be consistently used. SubSeed, Support, and maybe Perish Song are what she'll really shine with, considering it's basically the most her stats and movepool will really let her do.

EDIT: It took me too long to post this. Ulti, I'd hardly consider some of them good sets. Any set trying to make Lilibelle offensive in any way, shape, or form is bad. And Pain Split reliance is bad for something with base 121 HP. Not even Leech Seed is really as useful as it normally is on other Pokes. I'm not going to deny the fact that she could be extremely good in a support role (rivaling even Blissey in the role, imo), but the other stuff is kinda bad.

 

[UltiMario]

Celebi has 14 sets, all of which are viable.

That said, I don't really see how Lilibelle has a versatility problem, especially considering your first three sets are just variants of the same method (which, fyi, the EVs aren't actually optimal on any of your Seeding sets. Just run max-ish in both defenses to maximize Seed's healing potential).

Yeaaaaaah Mixed Subseed is the only good one of the 3 really, the other two not so much... actually I'm going to get rid of Physical Subseed because its not all that great... and just tweak the others real quick... THERE. Now we've got two viable subseeders with different purposes.

Wait until we can actually test her before you start saying she has some supposed versatility problem. As far as I can tell, she can have 13 'viable' sets, but only two or three will be consistently used. SubSeed, Support, and maybe Perish Song are what she'll really shine with, considering it's basically the most her stats and movepool will really let her do.

Subseed and Support sets are good, but you'd be suprised HOW MUCH THIS THING FREAKING DOES with Life Orb, Choice Scarf, or Specs slapped onto it.

EDIT: It took me too long to post this. Ulti, I'd hardly consider some of them good sets. Any set trying to make Lilibelle offensive in any way, shape, or form is bad. And Pain Split reliance is bad for something with base 121 HP. Not even Leech Seed is really as useful as it normally is on other Pokes.

Actually Pain Split is only there for when you're at very low HP LOL
Subseed isn't the biggest problem either. Not only is this thing waaaaay too defensively inclined and is waaaaay too good at supporting, but the thing has too much offense to back it up >.>

 

[Circa]

I think the problem I have with offensive sets are that they're operating off 90 base Special Attack. I know that can do some damage, but at the same time I wouldn't be able to understand why you would pick Lilibelle for the job as opposed to Rotom, who is faster, stronger, gets virtually the same offensive movepool, and operates on better STAB. The only thing Lilibelle has is the bulk, which I'm not sure will matter as much when you consider how many more hits she'll be taking with that lower Speed.

I never said SubSeed wasn't good. I just said that her Seed wasn't as useful as it is on other things that get it.

If you want a set that, at least in my opinion would be good, try this.

Lilibelle@Leftovers
Calm/Immunity
4 HP/252 Def/252 SDef
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- WoW/Knock Off/Stun Spore/Thunderbolt

Simple SubSeed with some ****ed up good support options. WoW to burn things like Ttar and just add some more residual damage, Knock Off to really **** with your opponents (and keep you from being Taunt weak), Stune Spore for paralysis support and being given the gift of outspeeding stuff, and Thunderbolt is basically just an outclassed option, but if you want to KO two of the common-ish non-lead Taunt users in OU (Gyara and Skarmory; Skarmory being something that would love to come in on this) then it might be worth your time considering. Immunity is so you don't have to worry about Toxic Spikes.

Idk. Just a quick set I thought up after seeing so much SubSeed. I'm kind of out of it from working last night, but I think this is good. I had another set I wanted to post as well, but now I can't remember for the life of me what it was. D:

 

[UltiMario]

*HEAD DESK*

UGH I accidentally deleted this post :/

Anyways, the Mixed Def Subseeder works out better than this. Protect simply cannot be used because other things just have to be run over it. It doesn't have Room for protect. Grass Knot is better than WoW against TTar seeing as CBTar is the only one that can threaten Lilibelle with a KO before you can 2HKO with Grass Knot. Knock Off and Stun Spore are cut out of Subseed due to simply not having the room to fit, and TBolt is... the same for us. Also, what does immunity have to do with Taunt?

But Lilibelle has TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE 4-moveslot syndrome, so you just have to find what works and go with it.

Just to throw this out there, this thing is the mence of Defense. I've yet to find something that can reliably take down most sets. TTar CANNOT switch into Lilibelle unless its weakened, Blissey loses to Statusing, Stalling, and Subseed sets, and can get crippled with Trick, Mence can't even reliably kill the thing unless its a Mixmence Fire Blast (and some Lilibelles can take it down in the process of trying, BTW), Magezone can deal with a handful of sets with its resistances but that's only taking it so far.

Someone recommend a "theoretical general counter", because I've yet to find something that can reliably deal with Lilibelle.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Heatran?

I dunno.

 

[Circa]

Also, what does immunity have to do with Taunt?

I told you I was feeling pretty messed up. It was a typo. I meant to type Toxic Spikes and typed Taunt instead. I fixed it as soon as I realized I said it, but you obviously saw the post before I could do the editing.

The point of Protect is just to heal more. The set is purely meant for SubSeeding. I think that's the problem you're encountering (evident by your thought on 4-moveslot syndrome). You're trying to make Lilibelle do more than she can in one set, which ruins a set's viability. I got what she needed for SubSeeding in THREE moves. The last move is just meant to help her do what she's supposed to with a higher success rate. You choose which move you want to use in the last slot based on personal tastes and what the rest of the team can handle. The set is basically the same as any other HP-heavy SubSeeder.

EDIT: Heatran is a pretty good counter, but still has to watch out for Stun Spore. Counters are pretty much based on what set is being run, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[UltiMario]

Heatran can Check or counter a good chunk of those sets.

So thats why you invent new ones.

Sub LO:

Lilibelle@Life Orb
Modest/Sheild Dust
252HP/252SpA/4Spe
Substitute
Focus Blast
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball

...Eh... its like Gengar except Bulky? :|

Yeeeeaaaah have fun Theorymoning among yourselves now because I g2g do something :|

Quick Edit: Yeah, more effecient subseeding or stop TTar from wrecking you....

 

[Circa]

Quick Edit: Yeah, more effecient subseeding or stop TTar from wrecking you....

Protect to scout what move it uses, and react accordingly. If CBTar locks itself into Crunch, then you're safe to switch. If it used Pursuit, then WoW and lol as it now can't even do enough to break a sub.

EDIT: Curselax only cares about Focus Blast, which can't actually 2HKO the standard set. Pain Split won't matter as much as you'd think, thanks to how much health Lilibelle naturally has and how little Snorlax will be attacking until it's set up (at which point Lilibelle's ****ed anyway), meaning Lilibelle will likely be doing a lot of Pain Splitting from max health. I guess it could care about Perish Song too, but I don't think it'll be used enough to worry excessively over.

 

[Metal~Mario]

^Wait a poke that encourages the use of Curselax!!?!?!?

A poke that beats Blissey but not Snorlax?!?!?!?!?!

My dream come true!!!!

 

[UltiMario]

Pretty much, after running calcs, Snorlax pretty much beats any set not Running max special attack, +SpA nature, a boosting item (Expert Belt, Choice Specs, Life Orb), AND Focus Blast; or sets that are Perish Trappers; or sets that can Trick an item that locks Snorlax into 1 move.

Its pretty much the most reliable Lilibelle counter in the game. Heatran is #2, and virtually everything else are VERY exclusive to countering 1 kind of set (Blissey vs offensive sets) or are only checks (Mixmence).
Eh, not too far off from Mence in terms of how well things counter it, is it?

 

[Metal~Mario]

Only two counters?

That is a little imba.

 

[Circa]

Counters are mainly set dependent, just like in the case of Salamence. That doesn't mean it's going to break the game though. The way I see it, if it's really good but not quite good enough to become Uber, then we ****ing did it right. Especially when you consider the concept behind this CAP was type representation. The two major counters to the Pokemon both happen to be types with low representation, so it's kind of double win in a sense.

If CAP 3 gets started any time soon though, I think I'll have to put in a stat spread. As of right now we've really let the metagame lean toward stall (especially with Lilibelle, who seems like she could be a legitimate top 10 threat), so I'm going to have to think of an awesome offensive spread for CAP 3 to counteract that.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

There will be a SmashCAP Revisions Thread upon completion of our Shoddy server so we'll be able to test Calderan and Lilibelle out in full swing.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

There will be a SmashCAP Revisions Thread upon completion of our Shoddy server so we'll be able to test Calderan and Lilibelle out in full swing.

-Terywj

I'm going to make like 5 teams and abuse the muk out of these guys so badly

<3

 

[Terywj [태리]]

And I really wish I could use the Search function...because I can't find the layout for the SmashCAP 1 Final Product Thread. I need it in order to post the same for SmashCAP 2.

And thus, allowing the start of SmashCAP 3.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

I can.... manually find it for you.

I have nothing better to do.

 

[Circa]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262956

Done. Sorry Ulti.

 

[UltiMario]

I WOULD have gotten it done but some random **** decided to happen.

:<

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Oh wow. Don't know why I couldn't find it earlier. Being sick must have worked me way out of it.

Thanks, Writer. I'll get to work on it right away.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

If CAP 3 gets started any time soon though, I think I'll have to put in a stat spread. As of right now we've really let the metagame lean toward stall (especially with Lilibelle, who seems like she could be a legitimate top 10 threat), so I'm going to have to think of an awesome offensive spread for CAP 3 to counteract that.

Now that I think about it, Lilibelle counters Calderan, so one staller rids the other, which is actually hilarious that Lilibelle can act as Bulky Offense, exactly what Calderan was supposed to get rid of.

So SmashCAP 3 needs to help balance out the two.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

SmashCAP 3 will be more of a fun project though. You know what the concept will be, right?

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

Oh **** Zook. I totally forgot.

Yeah, Zook's gonna be a rapist (in the non-illegal way, of course).

 

[UltiMario]

We should just give Zook wonderguard and give him typing Lilibelle can't hit.