"Smash is supposed to be simple"

[SKM_NeoN]

"Exploits" and "glitches" such as L-Canceling and Wave Dashing have been a hot topic since the conception of the Smash Bros. 4 general discussion thread, and the defenders of those less capable make sure to channel Sakurai's message for us all, which boils down to a game that everyone has a fair shot at winning without the need of overcoming a technical barrier. This sentiment that Smash Brothers was always intended to be a very simple game to understand and play at all levels has become very prevalent in nearly all of the topics discussing potential gameplay mechanics.

This couldn't be further from the truth!

It wasn't until Brawl released that everyone started to misconstrue what the design philosophy behind Super Smash Bros. has been. SSB and SSBM were created with the intent of being accessible to newcomers yet difficult to master. This was largely agreed upon back then, as evident by the advanced techniques buried deep within; Way too deep for the casual to find, but eventually uncovered by the dedicated. These weren't glitches, they were consciously coded into the final product, some of which carried over from Smash 64 to Smash Melee.

If you want to discuss the merits of an all-around easy-to-master direction for the future of Smash that's fine. I'm just getting a bit tired of people claiming this new viewpoint of a simple-in-every-way game was the intended stance from the beginning, when it's clearly not the game we've been playing prior to Brawl! The future of the series is veering from Sakurai's original intent, for better or for worse.

For the record I'm not saying Brawl is easy to play at a top level, only that it was clearly Sakurai's goal to make high level play possible for everyone.

 

[D-idara]

"Smash is supposed to be simple"
Yes it is, indeed.

 

[ErenJager]

Smash Bros. aint no game.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

The main concept if Smash is very simple and easy to pick up, that's why it's such an awesome casual experience.

However I must say Smash on a competitive level is one of the hardest game I've played ever. There's so much depth in all Smash games, and so many things to think about during a match; placement, how to approach, read habits, figure out how recover against different opponents, etc.

That's why I love Smash; it has something for everyone!

And I think that this was what Sakurai has always been going for. True that Brawl was more directed to casual players, that's no secret. But if it was designed for a casual audience only, why can the Star Fox cast cancel their Forward Specials? Why can you Edge Hog? Why can you Auto Cancel moves? All of these things are mechanics implemented for the more experienced player I would assume.

I always held the belief that Smash was designed for the casual and the competitive audience, I might be wrong, but that's what I think.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I think a lot of "advanced techniques" have been removed as a byproduct of the game being fine tuned and polished. Dash dancing I don't think was made more difficult on in order to "take it out of the game" but as a result of dash animation becoming smoother.

Of course there are some techniques that are consciously removed, such as L canceling, but I'd imagine many that were not intended to be in the game were simply not persevered as they did not exist naturally in the new engine.

 

[A Lucky Person]

Smash ain't no joke!

 

[NoiseHERO]

Was gonna type a wall of text simpler to say Sakurai prolly doesn't believe in Partying and Hardcore in the same sentence because he's not Andrew WK.

We'll just have to hope this game will have "deep" combat without the need of DBZ skills probably.

At least it already looks 10x more fun that brawl, and not just cause it's new but because when you jump into the air it doesn't look like you're in a space stage in a megaman game.

 

[Chimera]

"Exploits" and "glitches" such as L-Canceling and Wave Dashing have been a hot topic since the conception of the Smash Bros. 4 general discussion thread, and the defenders of those less capable make sure to channel Sakurai's message for us all, which boils down to a game that everyone has a fair shot at winning without the need of overcoming a technical barrier. This sentiment that Smash Brothers was always intended to be a very simple game to understand and play at all levels has become very prevalent in nearly all of the topics discussing potential gameplay mechanics.

This couldn't be further from the truth!

It wasn't until Brawl released that everyone started to misconstrue what the design philosophy behind Super Smash Bros. has been. SSB and SSBM were created with the intent of being accessible to newcomers yet difficult to master. This was largely agreed upon back then, as evident by the advanced techniques buried deep within; Way too deep for the casual to find, but eventually uncovered by the dedicated. These weren't glitches, they were consciously coded into the final product, some of which carried over from Smash 64 to Smash Melee.

If you want to discuss the merits of an all-around easy-to-master direction for the future of Smash that's fine. I'm just getting a bit tired of people claiming this new viewpoint of a simple-in-every-way game was the intended stance from the beginning, when it's clearly not the game we've been playing prior to Brawl! The future of the series is veering from Sakurai's original intent, for better or for worse.

For the record I'm not saying Brawl is easy to play at a top level, only that it was clearly Sakurai's goal to make high level play possible for everyone.

You needed a thread for this? You couldn't have posted this in the numerous threads that have all devolved into melee vs. brawl rants?

 

[JediLink]

Smash doesn't need to be simple, but it does need to be seemingly simple at a surface level. Which it is.

 

[ryuu seika]

"Exploits" and "glitches" such as L-Canceling and Wave Dashing have been a hot topic since the conception of the Smash Bros. 4 general discussion thread, and the defenders of those less capable make sure to channel Sakurai's message for us all, which boils down to a game that everyone has a fair shot at winning without the need of overcoming a technical barrier. This sentiment that Smash Brothers was always intended to be a very simple game to understand and play at all levels has become very prevalent in nearly all of the topics discussing potential gameplay mechanics.

This couldn't be further from the truth!

It wasn't until Brawl released that everyone started to misconstrue what the design philosophy behind Super Smash Bros. has been. SSB and SSBM were created with the intent of being accessible to newcomers yet difficult to master. This was largely agreed upon back then, as evident by the advanced techniques buried deep within; Way too deep for the casual to find, but eventually uncovered by the dedicated. These weren't glitches, they were consciously coded into the final product, some of which carried over from Smash 64 to Smash Melee.

Smash was designed to be simple to understand and play, regardless of what level you play at. That much is fact. Where you are misconstruing things is when you interpret this as making it simple to win.

Smash is meant to be conceptually and mechanically simple but with enough available depth to give the players an endless array of options and counter options. The depth is not intended to come from physical difficulty and input barriers like traditional fighting games and that, IMO, is what makes the series special.

Melee is actually not a bad example of this as, besides a single bad design decision and a physics exploit, it was as simple as it could be and yet still offered a crazy amount to its dedicated players.

But lets focus on the bad points for now:

First, L-cancelling. This is neither a glitch nor an exploit but rather an artificial advantage. That is to say, it was originally to be an advantage solely available to Smash 64's AI but during development it was decided that AI only abilities were poor taste so they made it available to the players. They didn't, however, hint at it in any way or expect players to use it consistently.
For Melee it was toned down but not removed entirely. This was a poor decision, from a design standpoint, since its original use was nolonger in place and it therefore nolonger had a reason to exist. All it now was was an option to have less hitstun, something that could easily have been given without the unnecessary button press. It adds nothing to the game but difficulty.

Second, we have wave dashing. This too, was never intended to be a player staple but, unlike L-cancelling, was not a retention of past mechanics. Wave dashing stemmed from Melee's new air dodge mechanic and the momentum carry over. The way this resulted in air to ground momentum transference was indeed known (and specifically coded) but Sakurai never intended for it to create a movement option by combining with short hops. To think otherwise is bordering on conspiracy theory levels of paranoia/lunacy.
Again, this action is less simple than it needs to be. After all, why jump when you want to move forward? Why not just assign this to either X or R as a single button action?

Neither is a glitch but wave dashing is, undeniably, an exploit.

 

[sunshinesan]

"Exploits" and "glitches" such as L-Canceling and Wave Dashing...

Stopped reading approximately here.

EDIT: And then I read the whole thing.
I think people are too liberal in just declaring what Sakurai is trying to design. Rather than using absolutes to correct each other with false notions, I feel like being more modest and admitting that we are only assuming can garner better discussion.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Please.... no more of these threads... we've had as many of these kinds of begging-for-a-flame-war threads as we've had controller threads. (Someone needs to make a Controller General Discussion thread btw)

I'd like to say that Smash can be played however you like it to be played. It seems that smash games get better from a casual perspective the newer the game is.

 

[Aguki90]

"Smash is Simple but difficult to master"

Well those WAVEDASHING and L-Cancelling are glitches that are in the game that fans love but in reality Sakurai and its team don't accept.
Is they Accept those glitches, then Smash 4 would be all Melee then. That why Project M exist in the First place, Fans that love those glitches put them again in the game more easier than ever.

P.S.Streetfighter 2 Combo SYSTEM WAS A GLITCH, but capcom and its team love that glitch soo much, they even put it in every-single installment of the series because the glitch was revolutionary and that why the fans love streetfighter since the beginning.

 

[mimgrim]

Pro tip: If you don't like a thread then it is best if you ignore it, you bring nothing to the thread when all you are there to do is ***** about the thread even being made and not actually discuss the topic at hand. A moderator, Hong, even linked to this thread after closing another thread to take the discussion here.

Anyways OP, I agree. Smash's philosophy is easy to learn hard to master. Something people don't want to accept is that in the end Melee is actually simple at it's core, L-cancel has a 7 frame window to be done and 7 frames are very forgiving for any fighting game, Wavedashing is still not complicated by fighting games standards, Dash Dancing is as simple as simple can be, Dash Canceling is also very simple to get the hang of, and the list goes on. Melee only gets hard when you get to the someone like Fox or Ice Climbers, maybe a case could be made for Falco and Peach but it would be a bit of a stretch, but that's about it. And this is coming from a guy who actually prefers Brawl over Melee, the reason being because Brawl has better fluidity to have the characters move and stuff, I'm not some hardcore Melee player.

 

[ryuu seika]

L-cancelling is invisible and therefore unintuitive, regardless of how long it actually takes, while wavedashing is made difficult by the sheer speed of input required. Both, while not crazy complex, are more so than they ever needed to be. Both could easily have one button less for their input.

 

[mimgrim]

L-cancelling is invisible and therefore unintuitive, regardless of how long it actually takes, while wavedashing is made difficult by the sheer speed of input required. Both, while not crazy complex, are more so than they ever needed to be. Both could easily have one button less for their input.

I honestly don't care about L-cancel. It can be kept, it can be taken out and landing lag can just be reduced in general. Either option works for me. I'm not going to complain either way.

You are severely overestimating how hard Wavedashing is. This is going to be totally anecdotal and you probably won't believe me, but I can't play other fighting games worth my life , like seriously, I tried a KoF demo once and it offered a tutorial mode and I couldn't do multiple quarter/half circles in a row for anything (And I tried for a good 30 minuets or so). Wavedash is simple as hell. You press a button, you don't even have to shot hop to do it, airdoged, and push the control diagonally down. That's only the most common way it is done. You can easily make it easier on yourself by hold the stick the direction you want in advance, or you can stall it out a little bit and allow your character a tiny bit into the air before you do it. With that said, I actually don't care if it comes back or not. All I want is momentum to return, and with that back there will most like be some form of Wavelanding available through some alternate mean.

From everything I saw of the demos and what I have played of it, all I want is a bigger Dash Dance, Run/Dash cancel, with the ability to also cancel the initial dash with a crouch as well as the run animation, make more character like Pikachu in terms of landing lag for aerials, and fix up the wonky DI, hitstun, and KB. Anything else would be icing on the cake for me. And I don't think any of that is unreasonable in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

This thread is pointless. Those who agree will agree and those who disagree will disagree. I've learned that compromise is literally impossible.

 

[ryuu seika]

@ mimgrim : The return of momentum carry over would be something I would very much appreciate, so long as it weren't exploitable like in Melee. Usable is fine, mind.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

To be honest, a lot of players get a little overeager on the whole "advanced technique" thing in how much they think it helps or even changes these games. Advanced techniques are mostly just handy tricks; they can really help you out and, when legit, they're worth learning (sometimes people name silly stuff that isn't even worth learning). However, the most important thing and the main source of depth has always been fundamentals, doing the same kinds of things every player does just better. Like in Brawl, the most important thing with Mr. Game & Watch is just spacing his turtle well. In other words, my big focus is on hitting with the very last few "pixels" of the hitbox and carefully manipulating my position with air control to correct for my opponent's SDI and other defensive options (like against shielding Marth, I'll air control away so, if he tries to Dolphin Slash OoS, he'll whiff and eat my super powerful usmash). It's not easy at all and every time I play Brawl I improve at it a little, but it's simple. I'm hitting with a part of one of my basic moves (back aerial, not exactly a hard move to do) and hititng directions on the control stick to move while doing it (something I've been doing since I first started playing smash 64).

So yeah, to me, smash is supposed to be simple. It's a game with relatively simple mechanics that anyone who played platforming games growing up can pick up intuitively. However, much like those classic Nintendo platformers and perhaps to an even greater extent, the mechanics are very well built to allow for a nearly endless pool of improvement within that same basic gameplay by simply picking up on the nuances and building very fine control of what you're doing and then executing at the highest speed. There will be more advanced ways to play to some extent, things that are sufficiently non-obvious that beginner players won't even realize they're there for them to execute badly. That's inevitable and perhaps even healthy, but it's not the core of the game and is not the biggest thing we should focus on.

 

[Frostwraith]

Well, this thread isn't going anywhere besides another Melee vs. Brawl argument. I'm locking it.