Smash DI on Fox's Up-air

[Poopmaister6000]

Hello Jigglyfriends.

I'm a long-time smasher, but relatively new to competitive melee. My question is concerning my actions when avoiding the second hit of Fox's terrible up-air. I've seen a guide saying that you should, for example, SDI right when you have a fox coming with momentum from right to left. However, if you are thrown straight upwards due to no DI after his upthrow, where should you DI then? Is it even possible to get out of his combo in that situation?

I'm struggling hard learning to smash DI his Up-air so if someone could give me a breakdown of how it's best used against Fox's Up-air I would really appreciate it.

Thank you!

 

[-LzR-]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-sdi-foxs-u-throw-u-air-and-not-die.217426/

You are welcome.

 

[Massive]

The KirbyKaze guide is accurate but kinda bad, IMO.

If you're thrown straight up, it is technically possible to escape, but it's very hard. From the angle Fox will approach if you're thrown straight up, you need to SD in 90° increments on at least 2 frames of your hitlag to get out of the uair's first hitbox, and that's not particularly easy for a person to do.

Getting out of an uthrow that you DI'd behind is a bit easier because fox has to approach at an angle and won't hit you straight on with his hitbox.

It's more important to focus on DIing behind fox in the first place than SDIing the uthrow as it's just a lot harder to follow for fox in general if you're behind him.

 

[Poopmaister6000]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-sdi-foxs-u-throw-u-air-and-not-die.217426/

You are welcome.

Thanks, but I've seen that already, it's where my questions originated from.

The KirbyKaze guide is accurate but kinda bad, IMO.

If you're thrown straight up, it is technically possible to escape, but it's very hard. From the angle Fox will approach if you're thrown straight up, you need to SD in 90° increments on at least 2 frames of your hitlag to get out of the uair's first hitbox, and that's not particularly easy for a person to do.

Getting out of an uthrow that you DI'd behind is a bit easier because fox has to approach at an angle and won't hit you straight on with his hitbox.

It's more important to focus on DIing behind fox in the first place than SDIing the uthrow as it's just a lot harder to follow for fox in general if you're behind him.

Thank you! This is a great response and exactly what I was looking for.

 

[MrWeavile]

The KirbyKaze guide is accurate but kinda bad, IMO.

If you're thrown straight up, it is technically possible to escape, but it's very hard. From the angle Fox will approach if you're thrown straight up, you need to SD in 90° increments on at least 2 frames of your hitlag to get out of the uair's first hitbox, and that's not particularly easy for a person to do.

Getting out of an uthrow that you DI'd behind is a bit easier because fox has to approach at an angle and won't hit you straight on with his hitbox.

It's more important to focus on DIing behind fox in the first place than SDIing the uthrow as it's just a lot harder to follow for fox in general if you're behind him.

Is it worth holding C stick to ASDI when SDI'ing?

 

[Massive]

Is it worth holding C stick to ASDI when SDI'ing?

Yes, actually.
The c-stick overrides the main control stick's position, so using it will actually allow you to do two inputs very quickly.

You hold the C-stick in one direction, and the control stick in another, when you release the c-stick the control stick will instantly register a new input in the direction it is being held. I would say holding the C-stick directly up and the control stick to the left or right (away from fox's first uair hitbox) should give you the most utility, although this is probably open to experimentation.

I know Hbox presses up on both the c-stick and the control stick, which likely gives him one solid frame of up-SDI, enough to escape a properly DI'd uthrow > uair attempt.

 

[Sarej]

Wait wait wait, so you're telling me as Puff all I have to do is SDI up with the c stick and control stick at the same time and I can get out of up air?

 

[Massive]

Wait wait wait, so you're telling me as Puff all I have to do is SDI up with the c stick and control stick at the same time and I can get out of up air?

You can't SDI up two frames in a row, so hitting up on both sticks doesn't necessarily work. The trick to that is to have an up input occur from a non-up input during one of the SDIable frames. If fox is hitting you with the outer edge of the first-hit uair hitbox, one frame of up DI will get you out of it. This really only works if you DI behind fox and he doesn't get the straight shot uair.

If a fox uthrows you and you don't DI in time, you will need to SDI at least 2 frames of uair's first hitbox to get out of range of the second. And that is very, very hard to do with human reflexes.

 

[GenNyan]

I know Hbox presses up on both the c-stick and the control stick, which likely gives him one solid frame of up-SDI, enough to escape a properly DI'd uthrow > uair attempt.

If you're trying to replicate his SDI, it should be noted that he uses up on the control stick right before up on the c-stick. I assume its a similar timing to Usmash OOS, though I haven't properly labbed out the SDI for it yet.

 

[FEOwain]

it'd be easier to vcancel aft the first uair hits you imo

 

[GenNyan]

it'd be easier to vcancel aft the first uair hits you imo

You can't v-cancel while in hitstun, so it would not be easier, it would be impossible.

 

[Gentlefox]

Shots fired, but Hungrybox's method is stupid.

Any time both sticks are facing the same direction, the C-stick is doing nothing. As long as you hold your stick in the same direction until hitlag ends, you will ASDI with the main stick. If you were to move the main stick after SDI to get a TDI angle, then the C-stick would be useful, but I don't think it's worth it. SDI/ASDI'ing out is way more important than assuming failure and TDI'ing the second hit.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe this is the optimal method:

(Note: "TDI" is what most people call "DI" and is the perpendicular angle thing)

TDI the throw Left/Right. If both directions are basically the same (IE you can't go off stage or anything), go behind Fox. He throws at a 90 degree angle, so you might as well make him attempt a backwards smash turn and hope the game screws him over.

You then SDI towards him when he does the Uair. For the optimal SDI, go from 18 degrees above left/right to 18 degrees below left/right. Ideally get the Kadano notches for this, but otherwise just imagine them as a little above halfway between straight left/right and the adjacent diagonal angle. This is equivalent to about 1.75 completely left/right SDI pulses, plus if you hold it you get ASDI. Yes, this can humanly be done with some practice (I can do it). Even if you don't get the second pulse, you still get an (almost) fully left/right SDI pulse and ASDI.

If you miss the TDI, it becomes very difficult. Not all Foxes will do this, but they can actually vary their momentum quite a bit when you miss the TDI. They can jump forwards, then backward, or jump high and delay their U-air, etc. As far as I know, this requires somewhat of a read to SDI around. If they Uair low, you want to SDI upwards. If they Uair high, I believe you can SDI down to get out.

I'll update this after more testing, but this is what I personally do in matches and it looks like I'm using instant transmission when Fox Uairs me.

 

[FEOwain]

You can't v-cancel while in hitstun, so it would not be easier, it would be impossible.

oh, well i guess you learn something new every day