Smash 64 Style Shield Dropping

[Sorry:(]

When you press down while shielding on a platform, you should fall through it should you not? Spot dodging is for the c-stick. Shield dropping should be a more accessible tool, as it originally was in smash 64.

Who's with me?
Is there any actually good reason for this technique to be as demanding as it is? I open to a reasonable explanation.

Why should shield dropping be harder than shield jumping?

 

[Ganreizu]

How would i spot dodge on platforms if it worked like that?

 

[Nazo]

Not everyone has a c-stick, broski.

 

[~Dad~]

Practice makes perfect, not everything needs to be made easier.

 

[Celestis]

This is terrible. It's not like it's hard to begin with, and then you want to sacrifice a platform spot dodge option just make something already easy, easier.

 

[Boiko]

We've already had this discussion in a different thread. I'll repeat my point anyway.

Shield dropping is an extremely safe and rewarding option that is only punished if it is baited or the user doesn't understand its purpose. This extremely safe option should not be completely free and easy to perform. It's something you should have to practice so you can reap the rewards. Stop trying to make things so easy. The more rewarding techs in the game should not be easy to do, period.

 

[Sorry:(]

Do any of you actually get how this worked in smash 64? I see some of you disagree, and some clearly misunderstand.

We've already had this discussion in a different thread. I'll repeat my point anyway.

Shield dropping is an extremely safe and rewarding option that is only punished if it is baited or the user doesn't understand its purpose. This extremely safe option should not be completely free and easy to perform. It's something you should have to practice so you can reap the rewards. Stop trying to make things so easy. The more rewarding techs in the game should not be easy to do, period.

In smash 64 shield dropping happened faster and was easier. Basically you could argue is was an evan more rewarding option, and it was easier. This option was made more difficult to do, and less rewarding. Why? Was this intentional on the part of the smash creators? I think not. They like simplicity.

You just keep repeating your opinion about this game without considering my argument or how this worked in smash 64.

Shield dropping is something that I see evening out hard matchups for characters that get pressured. Think Yoshi vs. spacies in melee. This is an option yoshi needs because he gets pressured hard. The only problem is that few people shield drop. It helps that he can now jump cancel his shield, but I think this is an option that characters who get pressured a lot need easier access to.

Not everyone has a c-stick, broski.

If you don't have a c-stick, than there could be an option for making B do a spot dodge while in shield. I'm prosing a control option, not a requirement. Platform spot dodging should still be a thing. Having the control stick handle everything like the current default should also still be an option.

This is terrible. It's not like it's hard to begin with, and then you want to sacrifice a platform spot dodge option just make something already easy, easier.

It's not a sacrifice, it's an additional option. You need to learn stuff. Also, when this technique was discovered in melee, people thought it would never get used in competitive play because it is too difficult. Yes you can practice it, you can master it, but to say it is easy is not accurate. I find other types of tech skill much more fun to practice and I play this game for fun.

Practice makes perfect, not everything needs to be made easier.

I don't see how this game could be made easy, by changing the controls to this extent. The game is so complex and fast that regardless of your control scheme, it will be plenty difficult and technical in my opinion.

 

[Celestis]

Removing spot dodge from the control stick would alienate so many players who use it as a default. It would be complexity unfair to suddenly force all the players who use down as there spot dodge to change suddenly just because you want this to be easier.

And yes, it is a sacrifice, you are sacrificing an option for a different option. There is no gain, just rearranging options.
Shield dropping is already simple and easy to do with a roll of the thumb. Like Dad said, practice makes perfect. Before long you and everyone else will be doing it without even thinking about it.

 

[Phan7om]

I get where everyone is coming from, believe me i do, but shield dropping is perfectly fine atm.

Already much easier than Melee or Brawl, so much to the point where Ive heard decent Melee players say they do it on accident... and I agree since I do it as well. If you really find shiled dropping that useful, im not saying that its not, then take the time to learn how to do it. I find wavedashing harder and I think wavedashing is dumb easy, but thats just me. Point is that its already easy enough that anyone, regardless of how good your controller is, can do them with a few days of practice.

Remember when you (not anyone here in particular just in general) first started out and you had to learn how to tilt, could one just say there should just be a tilt option cuz some tilts are very rewarding but are too technical, you just had to practice them. Shield dropping almost is the same thing, just use almost that same tilt but roll vertically down... it will shield drop.

But then again I can see how this argument of shield dropping made easier is similar to auto-lcancel. If shield dropping is the best option why would i not want to shield drop?, and why is it so hard. Regarding lcancelling, you either do or you dont... thats it. Shield dropping is different you have options, shield drop, jump, roll, spotdodge, up-b oos, usmash oos, wd oos. I understand that shield dropping is probably the most rewarding due to its oos speed and a way to get out of a bad situation the fastest, but thats where the practice comes in... both learning HOW to do it, and WHEN to do it.

I'm just so sick of people complaining about their inability to perform tech skill. It was handed to no one.

Omg this^. Being a very technical player myself, I know that you dont need tech skill to be good at this game. But having control over your character in general will be enough, you dont need to learn how to shield drop. Look how many top players do it in Melee, from what Ive seen Armada is the only "God" of Melee who does it, and look how the others are doing... still very well.

 

[Boiko]

Do any of you actually get how this worked in smash 64? I see some of you disagree, and some clearly misunderstand.


In smash 64 shield dropping happened faster and was easier. Basically you could argue is was an evan more rewarding option, and it was easier. This option was made more difficult to do, and less rewarding. Why? Was this intentional on the part of the smash creators? I think not. They like simplicity.

You just keep repeating your opinion about this game without considering my argument or how this worked in smash 64.

Shield dropping is something that I see evening out hard matchups for characters that get pressured. Think Yoshi vs. spacies in melee. This is an option yoshi needs because he gets pressured hard. The only problem is that few people shield drop. It helps that he can now jump cancel his shield, but I think this is an option that characters who get pressured a lot need easier access to.

Characters also had shield break punishes in smash 64. PM is a completely different game than 64, melee, brawl, or anything else. I've considered your argument and I think it's bad and has little basis. It sounds like an inexperienced player whining because they don't want to take time to practice.

It does help in some match ups, sure, but if you know your character is reliant on that tech, just practice it. This is the same argument as having a short hop command. Just practice and quit complaining.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, I'm just so sick of people complaining about their inability to perform tech skill. It was handed to no one.

 

[Sorry:(]

Characters also had shield break punishes in smash 64. PM is a completely different game than 64, melee, brawl, or anything else. I've considered your argument and I think it's bad and has little basis. It sounds like an inexperienced player whining because they don't want to take time to practice.

It does help in some match ups, sure, but if you know your character is reliant on that tech, just practice it. This is the same argument as having a short hop command. Just practice and quit complaining.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, I'm just so sick of people complaining about their inability to perform tech skill. It was handed to no one.

You're sorry to sound harsh? You're sick of hearing this? Nobody forces you to read or respond to this so to me you sound self-centered and rude.
Also you can't shield drop out of a shield breaking combo in 64 so the connection you made does not mean much in my opinion. Project M borrows from all smash titles, and I think shield dropping should be borrowed from 64.


For those of you comparing this to a short hop button or auto L-cancel:
THOSE OPTIONS HAVE NEVER EXISTED!
I AM PROPOSING SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE HAD BEFORE.

Pressing down in shield to drop is the original shield drop technique. I'm not pulling this out of my a**.

 

[Boiko]

You obviously missed my point about shield breaks.

Your own poll has you in the minority.

 

[Sorry:(]

You obviously missed my point about shield breaks.

Obviously your point wasn't obvious enough. Was your point that shield break combos make smash 64 too different/broken to base project m techniques on? If that is your point I think that's narrow.

Your own poll has you in the minority.

Are you a minority if you are just one? Majorities can be quite incorrect. It's is nice to see where people are at though.

 

[Mera Mera]

Not everyone has a c-stick, broski.

To be fair, there are several things already can't do without a c-stick, so I'm not sure that's a real argument.

Currently without c-stick you can't:

-bair/fair with full momentum in the opposite direction
-uair/bair/fair on the same frame as you fast fall
-buffer roll/spotdoge/jump OoS
-dash attack in the first 3 frames of your initial dash (and as a result, you can't DACUS or boost grab in the first 3 frames of your initial dash) *I think it's 3 frames, but I'm not 100% sure on the window
-dual stick smash DI
-ASDI in a different direction than you DI (at least not reasonably)
-pivot f-smash in the direction opposite to your pivot (at least not reasonably)

Edit: To clarify not defending the OP since I'm undecided on the subject of making shield drop easier... just saying that if we don't implement the OP's idea, the reason SHOULDN'T be that some people don't have c-sticks, since this game already gives disadvantages to those who don't have a second stick.

 

[Blank Mauser]

What if everyone could perfectly shine OOS on command? Yeah I don't know. It'd change matches a lot thats for sure.

It's kind of like two button reversals and other crap. The whole reason you don't just do it every time perfectly is because the foresight required to do the motion efficiently when you want.

 

[Mera Mera]

What if everyone could perfectly shine OOS on command? Yeah I don't know. It'd change matches a lot thats for sure.

It's kind of like two button reversals and other crap. The whole reason you don't just do it every time perfectly is because the foresight required to do the motion efficiently when you want.

Yeah I kinda agree with this. The only reason I'm not sure on this is I'm not sure exactly what would happen if shield drop was a more readily available option. At least the suggestion implies no buffered shield drop, but I'd guess that it would be bad for the game if it were easier, it's just hard to say since I've never played a version of the game where it was easy. It'd definitely be worth messing around with something like this in a dev build imo, but it's probs would be bad for the game if it were in a release.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Obviously your point wasn't obvious enough. Was your point that shield break combos make smash 64 too different/broken to base project m techniques on? If that is your point I think that's narrow.

Are you a minority if you are just one? Majorities can be quite incorrect. It's is nice to see where people are at though.

Shield dropping was easy because spot-dodging wasn't in Smash 64. Pressing down on a platform was just a platform drop whether you were in shield or not. It was made harder to accommodate the extra defensive feature of spot-dodging, which should be an option on platforms.

There, that was easy.

/thread

 

[Celestis]

Shield dropping was easy because spot-dodging wasn't in Smash 64. Pressing down on a platform was just a platform drop whether you were in shield or not. It was made harder to accommodate the extra defensive feature of spot-dodging, which should be an option on platforms.

There, that was easy.

/thread

Easy!

 

[Sorry:(]

What if everyone could perfectly shine OOS on command? Yeah I don't know. It'd change matches a lot thats for sure.

From a game design perspective, comparing shine OOS (jump canceling a shield into a down special) to dropping through a platform out of a shield, sounds silly. Ur comparing doing a special move to falling. I can shine out of shield on command near perfectly by flicking my thumb up on C-stick to land on B and pressing down in between. If shield dropping was that easy I would be content. As is, shield dropping varies from controller to controller.

I think shield dropping should be like jump canceling a shield. Why can't you shine OOS downwards. What could, and used to be basic movement is now highly advanced.

If you can get outside of all your melee/brawl/PM experiences and take a fresh look, does current shield dropping make sense?

If you were designing a game, would you logically make shield dropping harder than jumping out of a shield?

 

[Sorry:(]

Shield dropping was easy because spot-dodging wasn't in Smash 64. Pressing down on a platform was just a platform drop whether you were in shield or not. It was made harder to accommodate the extra defensive feature of spot-dodging, which should be an option on platforms.

There, that was easy.

/thread

Interesting speculation.

I don't think the smash creators balance anything by making certain options difficult. I think they liked the idea of spot dodging, slammed it on top of shield dropping, and never looked back. The fact that you still can shield drop was probably insignificant to them, just a left over feature they assumed would go unused. That's my guess. They are very anti-difficulty.

 

[Blank Mauser]

If I were designing a game I wouldn't logically make you have to cancel landing lag of jump attacks either because no other game does that.

Pivoting also is somewhat controller-specific and I'd argue that should be made more consistent between characters before Shield Dropping. The main difference as far as I know from Melee is that you can't really hit that "Magic notch" and then just swipe down. You have to go slowly no matter what.

I'd also argue that despite it being easy in Smash 64, it had a vastly different shield game full of locks and guard breaks so it would have a different effect being ported over.

And I'm still really indifferent on it. Its just satisfying enough to pull off right now and I feel its quite possible to get it down 100% as is.

 

[Boiko]

From a game design perspective, comparing shine OOS (jump canceling a shield into a down special) to dropping through a platform out of a shield, sounds silly. Ur comparing doing a special move to falling. I can shine out of shield on command near perfectly by flicking my thumb up on C-stick to land on B and pressing down in between. If shield dropping was that easy I would be content. As is, shield dropping varies from controller to controller.

I think shield dropping should be like jump canceling a shield. Why can't you shine OOS downwards. What could, and used to be basic movement is now highly advanced.

If you can get outside of all your melee/brawl/PM experiences and take a fresh look, does current shield dropping make sense?

If you were designing a game, would you logically make shield dropping harder than jumping out of a shield?

Yes, because it offers greater reward than the often very punishable jump aerial OOS options.

If shield dropping was that easy I would be content.

Honestly, it is, with practice. It's so much easier in PM than melee.

 

[Sorry:(]

If I were designing a game I wouldn't logically make you have to cancel landing lag of jump attacks either because no other game does that.

Pivoting also is somewhat controller-specific and I'd argue that should be made more consistent between characters before Shield Dropping. The main difference as far as I know from Melee is that you can't really hit that "Magic notch" and then just swipe down. You have to go slowly no matter what.

I'd also argue that despite it being easy in Smash 64, it had a vastly different shield game full of locks and guard breaks so it would have a different effect being ported over.

And I'm still really indifferent on it. Its just satisfying enough to pull off right now and I feel its quite possible to get it down 100% as is.

I don't disagree with any of your points accept the smash 64 shield game comment. Shield dropping happened really fast in 64. I think PM shield drop speed should stay the same, but the option to use 64's input for shield dropping would be nice. I understand the community is committed to l-canceling, so I have made peace with that. I could make peace with shield dropping as it is, but I honestly think keeping it such an advanced technique that is so controller dependent is less fun.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm waiting for someone to chart out the Shield drop ranges in PM to compare to Melee's (which Kadano I believe has done). I believe you would have to FA with Dolphin, utilizing the GUI controller for each Control Stick point.

 

[Celestis]

Yes, because it offers greater reward than the often very punishable jump aerial OOS options.

OOS is for a punish. If you are getting punished so often for OOS moves then you are using it improperly.

 

[Boiko]

OOS is for a punish. If you are getting punished so often for OOS moves then you are using it improperly.

1.) Not always
2.) Baits

 

[Nazo]

-bair/fair with full momentum in the opposite direction
-uair/bair/fair on the same frame as you fast fall
-buffer roll/spotdoge/jump OoS
-dash attack in the first 3 frames of your initial dash (and as a result, you can't DACUS or boost grab in the first 3 frames of your initial dash) *I think it's 3 frames, but I'm not 100% sure on the window
-dual stick smash DI
-ASDI in a different direction than you DI (at least not reasonably)
-pivot f-smash in the direction opposite to your pivot (at least not reasonably)

Lol these are all incorrect, aside from dual stick smash DI.

But I get your point; though, I obviously wasn't giving the ultimate, golden, indisputable reason for this mechanic to not be implemented. Just a little example.

 

[Phan7om]

For those of you comparing this to a short hop button or auto L-cancel:
THOSE OPTIONS HAVE NEVER EXISTED!
I AM PROPOSING SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE HAD BEFORE.

Pressing down in shield to drop is the original shield drop technique. I'm not pulling this out of my a**.

Idk, but im sure most people already know this... but from what im getting at if those other two "techs" were actually in another official smash game you would want them in this one solely off of that reason?

 

[SpiderMad]

Lol these are all incorrect, aside from dual stick smash DI.

You got some splainin to do

 

[Mera Mera]

Lol these are all incorrect, aside from dual stick smash DI.

But I get your point; though, I obviously wasn't giving the ultimate, golden, indisputable reason for this mechanic to not be implemented. Just a little example.

Okay how do you do these without c-stick? I'm pretty sure I was right.

 

[Leafeon]

Shield dropping isn't hard enough to warrant a change in controls, in my opinion.

 

[Nazo]

You got some splainin to do

Okay how do you do these without c-stick? I'm pretty sure I was right.

 

[Sorry:(]

Idk, but im sure most people already know this... but from what im getting at if those other two "techs" were actually in another official smash game you would want them in this one

Idk, but im sure most people already know this... but from what im getting at if those other two "techs" were actually in another official smash game you would want them in this one solely off of that reason?

I think in many ways Project M is an attempt to combine all the best parts of each smash title into a super title. So if a short-hop button or auto-l-cancel feature had existed before, it would be more logical to request it for PM now. My point is that taking something that worked fine, and making it harder, is not conducive to opening the game to a larger player base and for me it becomes less fun. Not to blame the PM people, that was done by Sakurai's team. However, the PM dev team could now right this wrong.

Following that line of thinking, I happen to be in favor of an optional short-hop button and auto-L-canceling. Short hopping and L-canceling just make learning the game take longer and they take up mental space while you play. I don't have to practice either technique anymore because I have already put in the time, but I would rather have spent that time mastering the neutral game or something else less boring and robotic.

I think short hopping is too easy for a SH-button to change the game among the seasoned players.
I think L-canceling is pointless, and also too easy a technique for auto-L-canceling to change the game much among the experienced.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mechanics being good but excessively hard to do is really really ****ty game design. Even with obsessive, autistic levels of practice, you can still easily mess up multishines/grounded shine OoS/shield drops, to the point that it's not entirely available at human levels of consistency. It's almost like tripping, but you can reduce your chances the more you practice, but you never reach 0% chance.

Additionally it's just asking for balance issues. Do you balance around the expectation that players can never consistently perform a certain tech? Then what happens when someone can do it, stepping their game up beyond what any other character can do? Whoops, balance issue. Do you balance around the expectation that players will eventually master it? Great, now the character is that much worse until their players have put in an obscene amount of time practicing this tech, and by the time they have, players of other characters have worked on improving other aspects of their play. Why go through all this trouble to make a tech hard when you can make it accessible, and balance around the assumption that most players can do it? The only reason hard tech looks flashy and impressive is because it's hard in the first place. You could make rolling require a precise 8 button combination and it would be an impressive feat, but it's very artificial impressiveness, as opposed to something which is difficult for reasons related to player/character interaction, like a good read or a unique combo. Tech being difficult for the sake of being difficult doesn't make much sense when the games are already difficult to be good at regardless of all the required technical skill.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

No just practice dude its not easy

 

[SpiderMad]

Soooo?..

 

[Sorry:(]

I just found a way to shield drop in Melee that I really like and . . .

IT DOESN'T F***ING WORK IN PROJECT M!!!!
I finally made peace with shield dropping and I feel like I have been kicked in the balls.

The method I'm speaking of was mentioned by DrinkingFood in another thread:

Really easy way to shield drop is just to press and hold down (a smash input not a soft downward tilt) 2-4 frames before you shield, and you character will shield drop on the first frame of their shield. Doing this actually skips 2 frames of crouching your character does before dropping through a platform, so it's actually the fastest way to drop through a platform in ALL situations.

Have you been able to use this method in PM? Anyone else?

Also does anyone know if shield dropping makes as much of a difference in speeding up combos in PM as it does in Melee?

 

[SpiderMad]

There's also dash shield dropping which is also easy (and possibly the same thing you're mentioning but during a dash). But neither of those are the main point, where you're in shield but then want to drop; punishing someone hitting your shield with shield drop shine/up-air or what have you.

If that was enough remedy for you, I'm confused what exactly you wanted.

 

[Sorry:(]

I wanted to find out if anybody had managed to use the technique I mentioned above in PM. In melee it is exquisite. Anyone?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes it does work that way in PM as well. Control stick thresholds are often different between the two though, so you'll have to play around with the timing/strength of your control stick press. To make sure I went and tested that again in PM and was able to do it quite easily. If you are getting an airdodge, don't press all the way down on the shoulder button.