Smash 4 Meta. Would you compare Smash 4 to Brawl+?

[Shouxiao]

Smash 4 Meta is getting faster as time goes on. It is natural after all. This can be seen when comparing the pace of matches of 3DS and Wii U launch to now. The meta has a bright future and the community shall decide on things like customs and stages. Also patches help characters as well and they can expand the number of stages that be use for competitive play.

Thinking about things I wonder if Smash 4 would be somewhat like the old mod for Brawl called Brawl+. For those who do not know it was a mod to make Brawl faster. It did things like remove random tripping, increased hitstun, and balanced characters. The team who made it went on to Project M.

The best things Brawl+(Fun Speed Activate!)
Hitstun Increased with real combos
Much faster falling and fast falling speed
Auto L canceling
No auto sweep spot ledges
Melee Dash Dancing
Also ruleset is 4stock and 8mins like Melee.

Now I know Smash 4 does not have the speed and combos that Brawl+( or any Brawl mod) has but in many ways I am reminded of it. In Smash 4 many mechanics are different from Brawl and overall I say the game is the middle ground of Melee and Brawl.

Patching and DLC are what I think helps the meta the most. I do not expect the perfect balance game but I like the direction things are going. Characters that need help are slowly getting better. Top tiers are being nerf a bit but not to the point where a characters goes from the best to being one of the worst. The best thing about patches is that it is getting many lower and middle tier characters new technology to work with. Also I like the various mechanic changes at times such as DI/Vectoring and the universal nerf to spot dodges.

This may be odd to say but I feel like the game is like a "Smash 4+" but with official patches and support from Nintendo.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'd say Smash 4 needs a good deal of ironing out to do. I love Smash 4, it's my favorite Smash game, but there needs to be serious adjustments, especially with character balancing, since characters like Rosalina are way too powerful and other characters like Samus don't have many if any good qualities about them. I'd also like to see the defensive options toned down, so that you can get punished for playing too safely, as if it's saying "Hey! Learn to balance offensive and defensive options!"

I can over what I'd like to see changed for Smash 4, but for now, I'll leave it at that. Still, I want to see Smash 4 evolve, and since it has the advantage of being able to be patched, hopefully whoever's running the balance team knows what people are saying.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why need rosalina when sheik, ZSS, and pika are all more guilty??
Anyways, what makes smash 4 different from brawl+ and project m isn't the combos and stuff. It's the fact that defensive options are weakened greatly in both mods and attacks are buffed as well. These two traits allows the game for players to create block strings for pressure, and tick throw setups, allowing actual ways to grab someone outside of reads.
We don't have that at all in smash 4 sadly

 

[Mega-Spider]

Why need rosalina when sheik, ZSS, and pika are all more guilty??
Anyways, what makes smash 4 different from brawl+ and project m isn't the combos and stuff. It's the fact that defensive options are weakened greatly in both mods and attacks are buffed as well. These two traits allows the game for players to create block strings for pressure, and tick throw setups, allowing actual ways to grab someone outside of reads.
We don't have that at all in smash 4 sadly

Knowing that Smash 4 gets patches and considering the fact that fan outcry is vocal in the Smash Bros community, I'm sure we'll get those options for that in Smash 4.

 

[wizrad]

Was Brawl+ just Brawl with tripping and hitstun fixed? If so, no. Smash 4 is still faster than that could've ever been. Hell, I think Brawl should've been played with two stocks and Smash 4 should be played with three.

 

[Shouxiao]

Was Brawl+ just Brawl with tripping and hitstun fixed? If so, no. Smash 4 is still faster than that could've ever been. Hell, I think Brawl should've been played with two stocks and Smash 4 should be played with three.

This is Brawl+
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Brawl+
I would say the most important things were

Hitlag decreased in some moves
Automatic L canceling
increased falling and fast falling speed
increased hitstun which lead to true combos
no auto sweep spot ledges
dash dancing like Melee

 

[wizrad]

Thanks for the info! I never really got too into Brawl or any of its mods. Automatic L-canceling is something I lust for in Smash 4, and a reason why I now would consider Brawl+ to likely be faster than Smash 4. Anyone here ever play with the SLHG rules? That's like heaven.

 

[Shouxiao]

Thanks for the info! I never really got too into Brawl or any of its mods. Automatic L-canceling is something I lust for in Smash 4, and a reason why I now would consider Brawl+ to likely be faster than Smash 4. Anyone here ever play with the SLHG rules? That's like heaven.

It is faster than Smash 4. The combos possible in that mod were similar to Melee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kC65UOhSIg

Brawl had various mods. The team from Brawl+ went to make Project M(fully like Melee) Once Project M came out with more characters(only like 14 were finish at first in a demo) everyone who played Brawl+ moved to Project M. Brawl Minus is just straight up broken characters and fun. Well if everyone is broken no one is. There was also Balanced Brawl that simply nerf high tiers a bit, removed locks, number of ledge grabs, and tripping. It didn't catch on like Project M and Brawl Minus.

As far as stocks in Brawl goes it has gotten a lot faster. Look at Smash Con Brawl matches that just passed. 3stock and 8mins works for it well. I think Smash 4 would likely use 3stocks and 8mins soon.

Since the game has patches there is always the possibility of patches that can speed up the pace of the game. Maybe something like less ledge snap for most characters. Maybe slightly more hitstun. They are not going to completely change core mechanics but they can adjust the scale of them.

 

[LightLV]

Knowing that Smash 4 gets patches and considering the fact that fan outcry is vocal in the Smash Bros community, I'm sure we'll get those options for that in Smash 4.

Highly doubtful. Not with Sakurai sucking the pacifier the way he is.

I would just be satisfied with Smash 4 restoring shield properties to what they were before (Blockpush and Blocklag values). With no kind of defense dynamic to this game, it has basically doomed the meta to preference speedy, no-lag characters who can safely wiff without being punished.

If some characters were actually given the ability to pressure a shield, or throw out blocked attacks that are safe, they would automatically be in better spots than they are now.

 

[Shouxiao]

Highly doubtful. Not with Sakurai sucking the pacifier the way he is.

I would just be satisfied with Smash 4 restoring shield properties to what they were before (Blockpush and Blocklag values). With no kind of defense dynamic to this game, it has basically doomed the meta to preference speedy, no-lag characters who can safely wiff without being punished.

If some characters were actually given the ability to pressure a shield, or throw out blocked attacks that are safe, they would automatically be in better spots than they are now.

It only takes a few slight adjustments of certain things to make a huge different in gameplay. The patches we got have adjust the game little by little. I would not be surprise to see things with shields, dodging, ledge snap, etc adjusted a bit more in the future.

 

[LightLV]

It only takes a few slight adjustments of certain things to make a huge different in gameplay. The patches we got have adjust the game little by little. I would not be surprise to see things with shields, dodging, ledge snap, etc adjusted a bit more in the future.

I agree, but the changes to defense in this game seem just as deliberate as the changes to hitstun in Brawl were. It could change, but i'm not really holding my breath.

 

[SuaveChaser]

Smash 4 is pretty simlar to brawl+ that is how i viewed the game at first kinda like brawl+

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Na, I don't take any of the brawl mods seriously. That'd be like me playing mugen seriously.

 

[Shouxiao]

Smash 4 is pretty simlar to brawl+ that is how i viewed the game at first kinda like brawl+

Fun Speed Activate!

 

[UpBforVictory]

I'd say Smash 4 needs a good deal of ironing out to do. I love Smash 4, it's my favorite Smash game, but there needs to be serious adjustments, especially with character balancing, since characters like Rosalina are way too powerful and other characters like Samus don't have many if any good qualities about them. I'd also like to see the defensive options toned down, so that you can get punished for playing too safely, as if it's saying "Hey! Learn to balance offensive and defensive options!"

I can over what I'd like to see changed for Smash 4, but for now, I'll leave it at that. Still, I want to see Smash 4 evolve, and since it has the advantage of being able to be patched, hopefully whoever's running the balance team knows what people are saying.

We have over 50 characters at this point, its a bit hard to do, not that you're wrong or anything.

 

[Shouxiao]

We have over 50 characters at this point, its a bit hard to do, not that you're wrong or anything.

I would say Smash is taking balancing step by step. I like things this way because high tiers are brought down a bit and low tiers are getting buffed bit by bit to at least be mid tier level viable.

 

[Shouxiao]

Ah just look at the changes to shield stun this patch.

 

[Shog]

Ah just look at the changes to shield stun this patch.

Don't you love it than stuff like this happens? Man playing Jigglypuff is now really satisfying btw. (Have to check out the Jiggly Smash 4 boards...)

 

[Shouxiao]

Don't you love it than stuff like this happens? Man playing Jigglypuff is now really satisfying btw. (Have to check out the Jiggly Smash 4 boards...)

 

[link-a-link]

I hope all of you aren't expecting every character to be "high" or S tier cause that would be pretty boring. I love characters being in low tier. I for one enjoy when I kick someones butt with samus or zelda, and I wouldn't want either of them to suddenly become S tier for balance sake. Sure sm4sh needs a bit more tweaking and balancing, I just hope fans learn to balance their demands as well.

 

[Stromp]

I'd say Smash 4 needs a good deal of ironing out to do. I love Smash 4, it's my favorite Smash game, but there needs to be serious adjustments, especially with character balancing, since characters like Rosalina are way too powerful and other characters like Samus don't have many if any good qualities about them. I'd also like to see the defensive options toned down, so that you can get punished for playing too safely, as if it's saying "Hey! Learn to balance offensive and defensive options!"

I can over what I'd like to see changed for Smash 4, but for now, I'll leave it at that. Still, I want to see Smash 4 evolve, and since it has the advantage of being able to be patched, hopefully whoever's running the balance team knows what people are saying.

Sheik, ZSS, Pika, Mario, Luigi. Rosalina is broken but not them? Also it is very hard to balance games

 

[Mega-Spider]

Sheik, ZSS, Pika, Mario, Luigi. Rosalina is broken but not them? Also it is very hard to balance games

I used Rosalina as an example.

 

[Shouxiao]

I hope all of you aren't expecting every character to be "high" or S tier cause that would be pretty boring. I love characters being in low tier. I for one enjoy when I kick someones butt with samus or zelda, and I wouldn't want either of them to suddenly become S tier for balance sake. Sure sm4sh needs a bit more tweaking and balancing, I just hope fans learn to balance their demands as well.

No game is perfectly balanced but I would say it is best to at least make all the characters viable and not have certain characters be too strong where they break the game. I expect higher tiers to be used more often but the other characters should be viable.

 

[Stromp]

I used Rosalina as an example.

She needs a slight buff

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I hope all of you aren't expecting every character to be "high" or S tier cause that would be pretty boring. I love characters being in low tier. I for one enjoy when I kick someones butt with samus or zelda, and I wouldn't want either of them to suddenly become S tier for balance sake. Sure sm4sh needs a bit more tweaking and balancing, I just hope fans learn to balance their demands as well.

What about viable? It's not boring for a character to be viable, especially the mains of said character.

Also, define broken. Because there's a difference between overpowered, a bit over the top, and broken.

 

[Tino]

Only one thing makes Smash 4 better than Brawl...there's no random tripping.

 

[McDizzle!]

Only one thing makes Smash 4 better than Brawl...there's no random tripping.

Um... That's a bit of an understatement. How about the fact that there aren't any super broken characters *cough Brawl Meta Knight cough*, there are more true combos, rage helps give heavy characters a fighting chance, and we now have balance patches that can buff or nerf characters to help make most of the characters on the roster viable.

 

[Tino]

Um... That's a bit of an understatement. How about the fact that there aren't any super broken characters *cough Brawl Meta Knight cough*, there are more true combos, rage helps give heavy characters a fighting chance, and we now have balance patches that can buff or nerf characters to help make most of the characters on the roster viable.

Of course there are no "broken" characters in the game. Saying "super broken" makes it sound too dramatic.

 

[McDizzle!]

Of course there are no "broken" characters in the game. Saying "super broken" makes it sound too dramatic.

Ok? That doesn't change the fact that there are no broken characters in Sm4sh and that makes it better than Brawl.

 

[Rinku リンク]

Only one thing makes Smash 4 better than Brawl...there's no random tripping.

Totally, not like there was anything else that ruined the game like:

- A character so broken even an AT he had was banned. *COUGH*
- Chain-grabs
- Infinites/Locks
- Edge-hogging

Or the fact that less than half the cast is actually viable for competitive play.

Nope, Brawl was an absolutely PERFECT game minus random tripping.

 

[Shouxiao]

Um... That's a bit of an understatement. How about the fact that there aren't any super broken characters *cough Brawl Meta Knight cough*, there are more true combos, rage helps give heavy characters a fighting chance, and we now have balance patches that can buff or nerf characters to help make most of the characters on the roster viable.

That is one of the best advantage of patches. I would say Smash 4 has strong characters but not characters that are broken. If any character had anything game breaking it could be fixed with a patch.

 

[McDizzle!]

That is one of the best advantage of patches. I would say Smash 4 has strong characters but not characters that are broken. If any character had anything game breaking it could be fixed with a patch.

I never said that characters in Sm4sh are broken. I was saying that Brawl had broken characters (Meta Knight for example) and that Sm4sh, being more balanced, doesn't have broken characters, which is one of the things that makes it better than Brawl.

 

[Shouxiao]

I never said that characters in Sm4sh are broken. I was saying that Brawl had broken characters (Meta Knight for example) and that Sm4sh, being more balanced, doesn't have broken characters, which is one of the things that makes it better than Brawl.

Personally even before patches I would say Smash 4 never had anyone that is God tier(least not Meta Knight level). I would just say that Smash 4 has top tiers but not broken god tiers in terms of the meta game.

 

[McDizzle!]

Personally even before patches I would say Smash 4 never had anyone that is God tier(least not Meta Knight level). I would just say that Smash 4 has top tiers but not broken god tiers in terms of the meta game.

That's what I've been saying.