Smash 4 and TV Lag

[BlueBandit]

Recently I've been thinking about how the Wii U version is gonna go down in terms of input lag, I don't too much on the subject, so correct me if I'm wrong on any account. As most of you know most HD TVs have some kind of input lag, and with the Wii U only having an HDMI output, this lag seems to be unavoidable.

The question I have is: What do you plan on doing to avoid this, and what are TOs going to do? The only idea I can think of without breaking the bank paying for an expensive lagless TV, is by buying one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/131035429536?lpid=82

The problem with this, of course, is that now Smash 4 is being played on a CRT, and thus won't look as beautiful as it's supposed to. On top of that, I have no idea if the converter itself will cause any lag.

How are tournaments going to operate? Will they use these converters and old CRTs? Or are there solutions that I'm not aware of?

 

[Tornado_Man]

Doubt it's too difficult to get some good HDTVs.

 

[LancerStaff]

Recently I've been thinking about how the Wii U version is gonna go down in terms of input lag, I don't too much on the subject, so correct me if I'm wrong on any account. As most of you know most HD TVs have some kind of input lag, and with the Wii U only having an HDMI output, this lag seems to be unavoidable.

The question I have is: What do you plan on doing to avoid this, and what are TOs going to do? The only idea I can think of without breaking the bank paying for an expensive lagless TV, is by buying one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/131035429536?lpid=82

The problem with this, of course, is that now Smash 4 is being played on a CRT, and thus won't look as beautiful as it's supposed to. On top of that, I have no idea if the converter itself will cause any lag.

How are tournaments going to operate? Will they use these converters and old CRTs? Or are there solutions that I'm not aware of?

Well, the Wii U can use the old Wii cords to plug into CRTs. I've done it before, no converters or do-dads required.

 

[Pazzo.]

Well, the Wii U can use the old Wii cords to plug into CRTs. I've done it before, no converters or do-dads required.

My HDMI is broken, so I can't even use it. XD

I've always just used the Wii cables.

 

[Chiroz]

Well, the Wii U can use the old Wii cords to plug into CRTs. I've done it before, no converters or do-dads required.

Those will most likely lag much more than HD TV's. (Depending on if the TV has no HD input, at which point it will be around the same lag).

To the OP. HD TVs don't lag, what lags is the conversion from one type of input to the other. This means that if the console is not natively HD it will lag when connected to an HD TV. It also means that if your console
Is natively HD and you connect it to a CTR it will also lag. But if your console has a native HD output and the TV is natively HD (as in its not a TV that upscales into HD) then it won't lag.

Since the Wii U has native HD outputs, all you need is a TV which doesnt upscale to HD and is just HD from the get go. It isn't that hard to get those nowadays.


The Wii U also has CRT cables, meaning that if you have no access to a native HD TV then you can just use those. But if your TV is HD then using those cables will cause more lag than using the HDMI cable output.

 

[BlueBandit]

Those will most likely lag much more than HD TV's. (Depending on if the TV has no HD input, at which point it will be around the same lag).

To the OP. HD TVs don't lag, what lags is the conversion from one type of input to the other. This means that if the console is not natively HD it will lag when connected to an HD TV. It also means that if your console
Is natively HD and you connect it to a CTR it will also lag. But if your console has a native HD output and the TV is natively HD (as in its not a TV that upscales into HD) then it won't lag.

Since the Wii U has native HD outputs, all you need is a TV which doesnt upscale to HD and is just HD from the get go. It isn't that hard to get those nowadays.

Wow so all someone would need is a regular HD TV? I had no idea, I suppose there's no worry then so the game can be played in HD, AND be lagless, thanks much!

 

[Chiroz]

Wow so all someone would need is a regular HD TV? I had no idea, I suppose there's no worry then so the game can be played in HD, AND be lagless, thanks much!

Exactly, just make sure its an HD TV and not a TV with HD capabilities. I've been playing my Wii U for 2 years now completely lagless.

 

[LancerStaff]

Exactly, just make sure its an HD TV and not a TV with HD capabilities. I've been playing my Wii U for 2 years now completely lagless.

Mind if I ask how to tell the difference?

 

[Chiroz]

Mind if I ask how to tell the difference?

I'd say look it up online or ask the guy who is selling the TV. I am not really an expert on TVs or anything. A TV can have more than one Native output (and so can a console), so it could have both outputs simultaneously. If you already have a TV just try playing with the Wii U HDMI cables, if it lags then the reason is because the TV isn't natively HD it just has the ability to convert the output to HD. I myself bought a TV I knew was native HD because I literally told the guy to show me a TV which was native HD and wouldn't lag while playing HD games.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

An interesting thing to note is that the gamepad can display images faster then the TV. I believe it's only like a frame faster though.

 

[LancerStaff]

An interesting thing to note is that the gamepad can display images faster then the TV. I believe it's only like a frame faster though.

It depends on the TV, fast ones outspeed it a noticeable amount.

 

[DakotaBonez]

So, since the wii u is natively HD, then playing it on an older TV using the wii's A/V cables would create lag? because it has to convert it to a lower quality?

 

[LancerStaff]

So, since the wii u is natively HD, then playing it on an older TV using the wii's A/V cables would create lag? because it has to convert it to a lower quality?

I imagine the Wii U just outputs at a lower resolution without creating lag, but I'm not too sure. And isn't it the TV that creates the actual lag anyway?

 

[R0Y]

My HDMI is broken, so I can't even use it. XD

I've always just used the Wii cables.

Only 1 HDMI? Get the official Wii Component Cables if you don't already (unlike HDMI, build quality of analog cables matter, should be well-shielded.) If your TV can go up to 1080p on Component it's basically just as good, most (but not all) TV's stop at 1080i for Component though. You don't want to be stuck with low-def if you don't have to.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/131035429536?lpid=82

As previously stated, unnecessary, and if anything, sounds like it would introduce lag... maybe. There's no audio out either, which doesn't matter so much with Wii U were you can output audio through either or both ports, but like I said, unnecessary. All video cables that worked on Wii should work with the Wii U's analog port.

Some modern HDTV's are below 20 ms in lag with game mode (which admittedly comes at a small visual cost) enabled, that's less than a 50th of a second, don't let anyone tell you that's noticeable lag.

 

[Chiroz]

So, since the wii u is natively HD, then playing it on an older TV using the wii's A/V cables would create lag? because it has to convert it to a lower quality?

The Wii U also outputs 480i natively without the need to convert. So using those cables would not lag. If you use those cables on an HD TV it might lag though as the TV will probably have to convert it to lower quality.

 

[R0Y]

Wii U can output all of the following resolutions:
480i
480p
576i (PAL only)
720p
1080i
1080p

AV multi out is the same as the original Wii's, HDMI is new (and the system comes with a nice long HDMI cable.)

As for tournaments, I'm sure they'll use HDTV's and the HDMI port.

 

[Big-Cat]

The fighting game community has pretty much taken care of this. These monitors are generally used at EVO and I use it myself. I've had this one for over two years. It has 5ms. of input lag. A frame in a 60 FPS game is roughly 17 ms. so these are great.There may be newer models. Places like Shoryuken and Dustloop may have quick resources on it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236059

@ Pazzo. Any HDMI cable will do for the WiiU. I've even used my WiiU's HDMI for my bluray player.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is also a good site to find out the quality of various hardware.

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

The figures it gives are a bit higher than other sources, but I think it just considers more factors (like both the signal lag and the refresh rate). KumaOso quotes that monitor at 5 ms of lag but the database says it's 10 ms. Either way, that's still really good; it's only 0.6 frames of lag which is likely literally invisible to you as a player; I would seriously doubt anyone who claimed to be able to notice lag when playing on it. I have a LG 27EA33V which according to the database has 9 ms of lag, and honestly it's completely invisible (the advantage of the monitor Kuma quoted is that it comes with speakers... a non-trivial concern!). HD monitors are going to be used at almost all smash 4 tournaments I imagine, and honestly it's pretty hard to game in 2014 in general without one so I'd definitely pick one up. You can get away pretty easily only paying about $300 too (probably even less if you don't care if it's small), and for an electronic device that will see heavy use for at least the next decade, that's a pretty low rate.

 

[RODO]

Pretty much what Raykz said. I'm sure this game is going to be optimized to play on HDTVs.

 

[Pazzo.]

@ R R0Y @ Big-Cat

Thanks for the tech support.

Unfortunately it has to do with the TV itself, and not with the cables. It's a 5-6 year old TV, and fully capable, just only one broken HDMI. But I'll work on it and see what I can do.

 

[Khao]

I usually notice input lag sorta easily, nothing worse than tapping a stick forward and having the character move while you're already bringing it back.

But so far, with a TV that's very much on the cheap side of full HD stuff (literally the cheapest one I found that could also double as a PC monitor) I haven't noticed anything on the Wii U. Like, not even "good enough," it's honestly kinda flawless.

 

[Big-Cat]

You can get away pretty easily only paying about $300 too (probably even less if you don't care if it's small), and for an electronic device that will see heavy use for at least the next decade, that's a pretty low rate.

Definitely. The fact that you can also use it as a PC/Laptop monitor doubles its usage easily. Believe me, if you get yourself one of these kinds of monitors, you may not have to upgrade for years.

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Sorry for the question; I just find it hard to follow these type of descriptions.
Would I be able to play lag-less on any TV that hasn't got native HD if I used the Wii U's CRT cables instead of the HDMI cables?

 

[Chiroz]

Sorry for the question; I just find it hard to follow these type of descriptions.
Would I be able to play lag-less on any TV that hasn't got native HD if I used the Wii U's CRT cables instead of the HDMI cables?

Yes, but the game won't look as good as it could be and it will probably look very blurry. (Well, compared to HD anyways which will probably look awesome).

 

[R0Y]

@ R R0Y @ Big-Cat

Thanks for the tech support.

Unfortunately it has to do with the TV itself, and not with the cables. It's a 5-6 year old TV, and fully capable, just only one broken HDMI. But I'll work on it and see what I can do.

No problem.

You might be able to get virtually the same picture with good compatible Component cables (any HDMI cable will do, but analog cables shielding really matters,) like the official ones for example. If your TV is 720p, 1080i, or if you're lucky, accepts Component at 1080p, then you'll be doing nicely regardless of the HDMI port.

http://www.avforums.com/threads/wii-u-hdmi-vs-official-wii-component-cable.1710873/

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Yes, but the game won't look as good as it could be and it will probably look very blurry. (Well, compared to HD anyways which will probably look awesome).

I don't really mind the graphics; as long as it looks as good as Brawl does on a normal TV, it's okay.
I'll probably look into a HD TV if it doesn't, though.

Thanks for the quick reply.

 

[Pazzo.]

No problem.

You might be able to get virtually the same picture with good compatible Component cables (any HDMI cable will do, but analog cables shielding really matters,) like the official ones for example. If your TV is 720p, 1080i, or if you're lucky, accepts Component at 1080p, then you'll be doing nicely regardless of the HDMI port.

http://www.avforums.com/threads/wii-u-hdmi-vs-official-wii-component-cable.1710873/

Nice. That could potentially improve my picture...

Now that I think about it, I've not noticed much lag... maybe a frame's difference.

 

[R0Y]

I don't really mind the graphics; as long as it looks as good as Brawl does on a normal TV, it's okay.
I'll probably look into a HD TV if it doesn't, though.

I highly recommend an HDTV, they're pretty cheap now.

The game might not be optimized for 4:3 though, basically, text (for example trophies) and characters on the edge of the screen might be cut off by your TV. Nintendo has guidelines to avoid this problem but so did Sony and Microsoft with the PS3 and Xbox 360 and there were still some titles that had problems with non-high def displays.

The fighting game community has pretty much taken care of this. These monitors are generally used at EVO and I use it myself. I've had this one for over two years. It has 5ms. of input lag. A frame in a 60 FPS game is roughly 17 ms. so these are great.There may be newer models. Places like Shoryuken and Dustloop may have quick resources on it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236059

Wii U doesn't have an option to output full-RGB like its competitors (fewer black levels,) so some things will look strange on a monitor with full range RGB (most TV's are limited range.) Hopefully that'll be fixed as an option though...seems a strange option to leave out from what is basically a specialized computer.

 

[Solomon]

Hold on people really wanna use crt's for smash 4?Just like Amazing Ampharos said go to
http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/
And get a good monitor, its gunna be pretty annoying if we stick to crt's for the next smash.

 

[D-idara]

I was wondering when we could stop watching the tournaments and then being put off by the underwhelming-looking fat little TVs.

 

[LancerStaff]

I was wondering when we could stop watching the tournaments and then being put off by the underwhelming-looking fat little TVs.

Not tournament players' fault that the GC and Wii don't support HD.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'd say look it up online or ask the guy who is selling the TV. I am not really an expert on TVs or anything. A TV can have more than one Native output (and so can a console), so it could have both outputs simultaneously. If you already have a TV just try playing with the Wii U HDMI cables, if it lags then the reason is because the TV isn't natively HD it just has the ability to convert the output to HD. I myself bought a TV I knew was native HD because I literally told the guy to show me a TV which was native HD and wouldn't lag while playing HD games.

I can back up Raykz on this one. I've contemplated this issue since Brawl was announced and all of the information is available online and on some threads here on the boards.

Personally, I use an HDTV for my Wii and use basic component cables I bought off of amazon. They are very good quality, and for 5 dollars they are great, so if you wanted to continue using your Wii in fear of upgrading to new TV for smash purchase some component cables in the mean time, and when/if you you decide to purchase a a Wii U just use the HDMI cable that comes with the system. I do that and it's just fine on my 32' Vizio HDTV.

I can play GC games off of my Wii without lag with my component cables, but a Wii U is HD ready out of the box.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I was wondering when we could stop watching the tournaments and then being put off by the underwhelming-looking fat little TVs.

Also, CRT's show truer blacks than HDTV's, allowing for more vivid colors. CRTV's a large but they are of much more quality than a lot of the monitors we have today.