Should Game & Watch Be Legal in Doubles Tournaments?

[SlickJ]

Just as the thread's title says please provide an answer to the poll responding to the question and please let me know why or why you think he should not be allowed in doubles.

I'm a online TO who has been hosting for 2 years now and I've received complains about Mr. Game & Watch being in Doubles with Team Attack On. The reason why complains have been on the rise is because G&W mains/users will team up with people who cast projectiles while the G&W users will use their teammate's projectiles to fill their buckets and launch their filled bucket attacks towards their opponents and I can understand the frustration of going against such teams. These teams are then dubbed as "Bucket Teams" or "Bucket Teaming".

I have in the past gathered a team of online TO's to vote and discuss Bucket Teams and we decided to ban G&W, however, I'll be hosting another doubles tournament with big time gap between last time and now and the discussion and debates about him have came back.
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Edit: I'll be using your feedback to consider lifting the ban on Mr. Game & Watch that I have placed in my upcoming doubles tournament. Mr. Game & Watch will most likely be legal.

If you'd like to participate please check out this thread:
[Nov 1, 2015] ReadyToFight I (1st) Doubles SSB. for Wii U Tournament (5 PM CST)

 

[J.P]

It's a shame that the Smash 4 community, despite calling their game "The most balanced Smash title", has this types of scrubby attitudes. Before starting with my thesis, I'll say the classic competitive video game phrase regarding this kinds of attitudes "Get good". Before going a bit deep into argumentation I honestly have to say that things like this disappoint me and hurt the overall competitive scene for Smash 4. Now going into the arguments:

Doubles is a really underdeveloped metagame: strategies regarding energy based teams are easy to do and have a great reward (Ness Down-B, Villager pocket, G&W Bucket) but are shallow and don't have much room for optimization but the punish game that is applied towards them will increase.

Consistent pressure: G&W is light, has a small shield and needs time and spacing to bucket. This means that if the opposing teams applies smart and consistent pressure with characters such as Sheik, the G&W team won't get a chance to create the proper set up.

It hasn't had major complains at top level: Let's be honest here, most of the players that complain about G&W in your tournaments are far from being top players. This means they haven't optimized their gameplay enough to punish G&W based teams. Aside from CEO and a couple of other majors, I haven't seen a G&W team win a large doubles tournament (I might be wrong here since I rarely watch Smash 4 tournaments). Finally, none of the top players have complained about this "broken" strategy (and let's be honest Smash 4 players complain about everything that is remotely good).

I honestly could make a couple of more points but I think this is more than enough, banning a character is extremely dumb in any Smash game (you could make a case about Brawl MK and ICs tho) and even dumber in Smash 4 which is supposed to be a "balanced game". So those are my 2 cents on the topic, I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I'm just pointing out the obvious flaws in banning a character simply to the fact that people can't get good. Also I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this.

 

[SlickJ]

It's a shame that the Smash 4 community, despite calling their game "The most balanced Smash title", has this types of scrubby attitudes. Before starting with my thesis, I'll say the classic competitive video game phrase regarding this kinds of attitudes "Get good". Before going a bit deep into argumentation I honestly have to say that things like this disappoint me and hurt the overall competitive scene for Smash 4. Now going into the arguments:

Doubles is a really underdeveloped metagame: strategies regarding energy based teams are easy to do and have a great reward (Ness Down-B, Villager pocket, G&W Bucket) but are shallow and don't have much room for optimization but the punish game that is applied towards them will increase.

Consistent pressure: G&W is light, has a small shield and needs time and spacing to bucket. This means that if the opposing teams applies smart and consistent pressure with characters such as Sheik, the G&W team won't get a chance to create the proper set up.

It hasn't had major complains at top level: Let's be honest here, most of the players that complain about G&W in your tournaments are far from being top players. This means they haven't optimized their gameplay enough to punish G&W based teams. Aside from CEO and a couple of other majors, I haven't seen a G&W team win a large doubles tournament (I might be wrong here since I rarely watch Smash 4 tournaments). Finally, none of the top players have complained about this "broken" strategy (and let's be honest Smash 4 players complain about everything that is remotely good).

I honestly could make a couple of more points but I think this is more than enough, banning a character is extremely dumb in any Smash game (you could make a case about Brawl MK and ICs tho) and even dumber in Smash 4 which is supposed to be a "balanced game". So those are my 2 cents on the topic, I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I'm just pointing out the obvious flaws in banning a character simply to the fact that people can't get good. Also I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this.

This is absolutely the correct place to post this. Your thoughts on this subject are very insightful and you seem to be right about the Game & Watch bucket team set up being a hard and time consuming thing to achieve. Thank you for your response.

The only thing that's important to keep in mind is the context of this question is for an online Wii U tournament. In a live tournament you've got TO's spectating matches so that no one cheats or anything in an online setting it's different and there might be some lag (especially in doubles tournaments) but the same concepts might still apply though and your point still seems to be valid.

 

[Aphistemi]

Banning a character because people lack fundamentals to punish a certain strategy.. they shouldn't be entering anything competitive to be honest. people play to win in a competitive set, they don't care about your feelings, your frustration, or what you think is "OP" and "Broken".

You think ZeRo will care if you say Sheik is broken? because she's the best character in the game? he plays sheik to win. he acknowledges that other people in the roster have potential, and that some day they will hang with the top 10 or top 5, but in the end, he's playing sheik because sheik gets the most results.

No offense, but they shouldn't be playing in any tourney if they wanna ban characters, people weren't banning pre-patch diddy kong, so that just sounds like salt. nothing more

 

[Dokokashira]

I absolutely agree with everything J.P has said about Mr. Game & Watch in Doubles, but I have quite a few things I want to add.

First off, Mr. Game & Watch should not be banned as a whole character, if he should be banned at all. (which I feel he should absolutely not be banned) That unfairly invalidates any team combination using the character without intending to use the bucket, or even any teams that use the bucket and clearly aren't OP, like, for example, a team of Mewtwo and G&W.

As for what I want to add, I am a user of this strategy, mainly using a team combination of Mii Gunner and G&W. On occasion, we will opt to use Pikachu and G&W, but our main combination is Mii Gunner and G&W. Me and my partner often get complaints from our opponents that G&W is "cheap", "broken", "OP", "takes no skill", etc. and even sometimes ditto us to presumably prove some kind of point... I can go all on about how our team combination is anything but that. G&W is a light character with bad frame data. Most of his attacks have hefty endlag and come out slowly compared to other attacks of their types and have less range than those with similar frame data, which means he is easy to overwhelm with fast attacks, especially in the frantic environment of Doubles. A G&W can't do much if they're constantly being targeted 2v1 by their opponents, and buckets need a large amount of setup. Buckets require about three to seven seconds to set up depending on what projectiles you are using to fill it, and it's very easy to interrupt as Oil Panic has a great amount of endlag (50 FAF, leaving you open to attacks for 50 frames), and the partner filling the bucket usually can't multitask and effectively fend off the other team AND fill the bucket. While it's true that when backed by the right projectile, full buckets are a one-hit KO, the setup required for the strategy to effectively work and the drawbacks of G&W balance this out. (This isn't to say G&W is a horrible character, of course, but he has exploitable weaknesses that can easily be taken advantage of if played correctly.) Bucket teams trade good overall battle performance for incredible comeback and killing ability in their namesake.

If you're consistently losing to a bucket team, odds are you're either letting them set up freely, you're not pressuring and overwhelming them enough, or they're just plain better than you.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Yes, I also think that G&W should not be banned. I don't personally play G&W, but I have a friend who does, and while we have never competed in a doubles tournament together yet, we might in the future, and it would suck if we couldn't both use our mains, DDD and G&W. This isn't even a bucket team, since the only way to fill up a bucket with this team is for DDD to use his Up-B, and G&W to bucket the stars that come out on landing. That not only is completely irrational in a heated doubles match, but the resulting bucket is pretty weak. I would hate to have him be forced to switch even though we weren't planning to use any unpopular tactics! Don't ban G&W at all, but especially on non-bucket teams!

 

[Darklink401]

If he should be banned, then Villager should also be banned for pocket xD

I don't think he should be banned at all, IMO.

 

[Effay]

This is absolutely the correct place to post this.

No, this isn't the correct place to post this. I'm no mod, in fact, I've only been on since 2014, and am new, but you should really post this sort of stuff in Wii U/3DS Competitive Discussion. This is for lists of tourneys that can be entered, not for discussing competitive legalities.

BUT, I will share my opinion.. No, he shouldn't be banned. G&W isn't good as a character especially in singles. Clearly, he's great in doubles for his bucketing ability, and it's probably the only way such a low tier is viable.
So I'm saying, there are only singles and doubles/squads. He's bad in singles, so if you eliminated him from teams, his viability rate would sink quite noticably in Smash 4.

Also, was the team bucketing glitch a problem in any other Smash games?

 

[Aphistemi]

No, this isn't the correct place to post this. I'm no mod, in fact, I've only been on since 2014, and am new, but you should really post this sort of stuff in Wii U/3DS Competitive Discussion. This is for lists of tourneys that can be entered, not for discussing competitive legalities.

BUT, I will share my opinion.. No, he shouldn't be banned. G&W isn't good as a character especially in singles. Clearly, he's great in doubles for his bucketing ability, and it's probably the only way such a low tier is viable.
So I'm saying, there are only singles and doubles/squads. He's bad in singles, so if you eliminated him from teams, his viability rate would sink quite noticably in Smash 4.

Also, was the team bucketing glitch a problem in any other Smash games?

he's not bad in singles, he's not bad at all.

 

[J.P]

No, this isn't the correct place to post this. I'm no mod, in fact, I've only been on since 2014, and am new, but you should really post this sort of stuff in Wii U/3DS Competitive Discussion. This is for lists of tourneys that can be entered, not for discussing competitive legalities.

BUT, I will share my opinion.. No, he shouldn't be banned. G&W isn't good as a character especially in singles. Clearly, he's great in doubles for his bucketing ability, and it's probably the only way such a low tier is viable.
So I'm saying, there are only singles and doubles/squads. He's bad in singles, so if you eliminated him from teams, his viability rate would sink quite noticably in Smash 4.

Also, was the team bucketing glitch a problem in any other Smash games?

G&W is an underrated character, while he isn't top tier and has problems with most of the top threats (Sonic, Fox, Sheik and Rosa come into my mind) he is useful vs a variety of energy based characters like Ness and Robin. Also the team bucketing tactic isn't a glitch, it is an exploit similar to Wavedash in Melee.

 

[Effay]

G&W is an underrated character, while he isn't top tier and has problems with most of the top threats (Sonic, Fox, Sheik and Rosa come into my mind) he is useful vs a variety of energy based characters like Ness and Robin. Also the team bucketing tactic isn't a glitch, it is an exploit similar to Wavedash in Melee.

Yes, I realized I said that. I didn't edit it for whatever reason lol
Anyways, was it in any other Smash title?

 

[J.P]

In Brawl G&W + Pikachu was deadly using the bucket strategy. I don't know in Melee because the meta isn't optimal for this time of strategies as it is much more fast paced than Smash 4/ Brawl.

 

[Xyrohip]

I absolutely agree with everything J.P has said about Mr. Game & Watch in Doubles, but I have quite a few things I want to add.

First off, Mr. Game & Watch should not be banned as a whole character, if he should be banned at all. (which I feel he should absolutely not be banned) That unfairly invalidates any team combination using the character without intending to use the bucket, or even any teams that use the bucket and clearly aren't OP, like, for example, a team of Mewtwo and G&W.

As for what I want to add, I am a user of this strategy, mainly using a team combination of Mii Gunner and G&W. On occasion, we will opt to use Pikachu and G&W, but our main combination is Mii Gunner and G&W. Me and my partner often get complaints from our opponents that G&W is "cheap", "broken", "OP", "takes no skill", etc. and even sometimes ditto us to presumably prove some kind of point... I can go all on about how our team combination is anything but that. G&W is a light character with bad frame data. Most of his attacks have hefty endlag and come out slowly compared to other attacks of their types and have less range than those with similar frame data, which means he is easy to overwhelm with fast attacks, especially in the frantic environment of Doubles. A G&W can't do much if they're constantly being targeted 2v1 by their opponents, and buckets need a large amount of setup. Buckets require about three to seven seconds to set up depending on what projectiles you are using to fill it, and it's very easy to interrupt as Oil Panic has a great amount of endlag (50 FAF, leaving you open to attacks for 50 frames), and the partner filling the bucket usually can't multitask and effectively fend off the other team AND fill the bucket. While it's true that when backed by the right projectile, full buckets are a one-hit KO, the setup required for the strategy to effectively work and the drawbacks of G&W balance this out. (This isn't to say G&W is a horrible character, of course, but he has exploitable weaknesses that can easily be taken advantage of if played correctly.) Bucket teams trade good overall battle performance for incredible comeback and killing ability in their namesake.

If you're consistently losing to a bucket team, odds are you're either letting them set up freely, you're not pressuring and overwhelming them enough, or they're just plain better than you.

You and aph clearly aren't broken xD This was more towards Ness GW and Sheik GW

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I think that G&W's bucket can be aptly compared to Little Mac's KO punch:

For Mac, the KO punch is really what makes him scary and tournament viable. Nearly every skilled player will know hundreds of different ways to gimp mac, and without the punch he really has little else to make him viable. However, if you want to main little mac competetively, you will have practiced every possible way to guarantee that KO punch will land once you have it. You will practice mind games, visualize the entire hitbox of the punch, practice setups, and know just how big of a risk you are taking when you decide to throw it out. After all, mac will only get the punch on average once per stock, so he's gotta make it count.

Now substitute mac for G&W, and the KO punch for the bucket. It's pretty much the same thing! G&W is a low tier character, and if it weren't for the bucket he probably wouldn't see any competetive play. The times that he can fill up the bucket with his teammate are rare, and will probably happen about once per stock on average, and if the bucket is baited out, it was a lot of setup time wasted, so the G&W will have to practice the mindgames, setups, and risks of using the filled bucket. They make it look easy, overpowered, and powerful because they have spent a lot of time studying the technique, and practicing the move. By this logic, G&W's bucket is no different than the KO punch, and nobody bans Mac from tournaments. In fact, people still consider him to be one of the worst characters to use in a tournament setting, so why ban G&W?

I personally support bucket teams, because they aren't really easy ways to rack up free wins like people may think. If you are on the receiving end of a filled bucket, you have fallen to G&W's mind games, and he isn't even as mobile as Little Mac! Bucket teams require a lot of practice and lab time to pull off, and they are by no means broken. Rather, they are a creative way to make a low tier character viable, and encourage all teams to learn a diversity of strategies. If you don't adapt your play to facing a bucket team, you will be punished accordingly, and I feel that that is a healthy staple of the metagame.

 

[Xyrohip]

I think that G&W's bucket can be aptly compared to Little Mac's KO punch:

For Mac, the KO punch is really what makes him scary and tournament viable. Nearly every skilled player will know hundreds of different ways to gimp mac, and without the punch he really has little else to make him viable. However, if you want to main little mac competetively, you will have practiced every possible way to guarantee that KO punch will land once you have it. You will practice mind games, visualize the entire hitbox of the punch, practice setups, and know just how big of a risk you are taking when you decide to throw it out. After all, mac will only get the punch on average once per stock, so he's gotta make it count.

Now substitute mac for G&W, and the KO punch for the bucket. It's pretty much the same thing! G&W is a low tier character, and if it weren't for the bucket he probably wouldn't see any competetive play. The times that he can fill up the bucket with his teammate are rare, and will probably happen about once per stock on average, and if the bucket is baited out, it was a lot of setup time wasted, so the G&W will have to practice the mindgames, setups, and risks of using the filled bucket. They make it look easy, overpowered, and powerful because they have spent a lot of time studying the technique, and practicing the move. By this logic, G&W's bucket is no different than the KO punch, and nobody bans Mac from tournaments. In fact, people still consider him to be one of the worst characters to use in a tournament setting, so why ban G&W?

I personally support bucket teams, because they aren't really easy ways to rack up free wins like people may think. If you are on the receiving end of a filled bucket, you have fallen to G&W's mind games, and he isn't even as mobile as Little Mac! Bucket teams require a lot of practice and lab time to pull off, and they are by no means broken. Rather, they are a creative way to make a low tier character viable, and encourage all teams to learn a diversity of strategies. If you don't adapt your play to facing a bucket team, you will be punished accordingly, and I feel that that is a healthy staple of the metagame.

The thing is when it comes to sheik if sheik spawns in the front (Due to port placement) Sheik can up b and block incoming projectiles while GW buckets. And we aren't talking about tournaments as a whole this conversation stemmed from a few people in a chat room