Short Hop Air Dodge and Stuff

[MaTT*xD]

Hi, I don't usually post to much stuff around here, but since I've been messing arround with mewtwo quite a lot lately, I decided to open this thread with some things I've been using recently, which I didn't see people doing or talking about.

Short Hop Air Dodge is a quite known technique, but what makes it so good on mewtwo is the fact that he disappears and has a quick Fair out of it. When you use it, the opponent momentarialy doesn't know were you're going, so you can stay in place and Fair, go towards him and Fair, retreat, double jump and other stuff. One way you can mix up is doing a full jump air dodge, witch looks the same but give you a different position to follow up with falling Nair, Fair, or reposition. So, you can use it to confuse your oponents in neutral game, and is quite a good approatch tool because is hard to see it coming if you use it properly.

Other cool thing I found is that you can Jump Nair and do a Fair out of it just before you hit the ground, witch can catch people off guard.

Can someone give me feedback on this? I haven't mastered it but looks quite promising.

 

[pikazz]

not to burst your bubble but this was covered already from day one.

but it is good with airdodge->Fair, not gonna lie!

 

[U-Throw]

Yeah, this is very useful! I believe this technique has already been talked about, but, regardless, it's good to have a reminder every now and then. In particular, the ability to airdodge while short-hopping or full-hopping without any discernable difference has proved to be very useful. There's a lot of mind-game and mix-up potential there! Thanks for bringing this up again!

 

[Bennext]

So, you can use it to confuse your oponents in neutral game,

There's a lot of mind-game and mix-up potential there!

: Master of mind games.

 

[U-Throw]

: Master of mind games.

Fitting, seeing as Mewtwo is a Psychic-type.

 

[MaTT*xD]

not to burst your bubble but this was covered already from day one.

but it is good with airdodge->Fair, not gonna lie!

Yeah, I knew it probably was found, but decided o bring it up anyways because I didn't find much about it, and it looks pretty good to me.

Thanks everyone for the feedback

 

[Karsticles]

I'm actually not big on this, for two reasons:
1) The Fair is extremely unsafe after a SHADC.
2) The Fair tends to whiff a lot after SHADC, even though Mewtwo's swipe is going through the opponent's character model. -_-

I use it maybe once every 10 matches against projectile characters like DHD. SHADC through a disk to Fair is a good KO to use now and then. Really, I would only use it in KO situations after teaching my opponent to expect other habits after I jump.

Full hop Nair into Fair has that #1 issue, still. The bigger problem is that no one gets hit by that Fair. You are an inch above the ground, and Mewtwo can't maneuver enough to control the opponent's space against him after the full hop. You're basically going to get shield grabbed every time.

Instead, I prefer to full hop Nair, and then fast fall the last 2/3 of your descent. The last hit of Nair is much bigger than the rest of the move, and knocks opponents away. It also has zero landing lag, so you can pursue your opponent or back off. Very flexible and safe. Fast fall Nair is hard to counter, but normal full jump Nair is pretty unsafe as an approach tool.

 

[MaTT*xD]

I'm actually not big on this, for two reasons:
1) The Fair is extremely unsafe after a SHADC.
2) The Fair tends to whiff a lot after SHADC, even though Mewtwo's swipe is going through the opponent's character model. -_-

I use it maybe once every 10 matches against projectile characters like DHD. SHADC through a disk to Fair is a good KO to use now and then. Really, I would only use it in KO situations after teaching my opponent to expect other habits after I jump.

Full hop Nair into Fair has that #1 issue, still. The bigger problem is that no one gets hit by that Fair. You are an inch above the ground, and Mewtwo can't maneuver enough to control the opponent's space against him after the full hop. You're basically going to get shield grabbed every time.

Instead, I prefer to full hop Nair, and then fast fall the last 2/3 of your descent. The last hit of Nair is much bigger than the rest of the move, and knocks opponents away. It also has zero landing lag, so you can pursue your opponent or back off. Very flexible and safe. Fast fall Nair is hard to counter, but normal full jump Nair is pretty unsafe as an approach tool.

I understand what you are saying about it being a bad approach option alone, but i think you are missing one of the points.
When you do a SHAD in place, retreating, going in, or a full jump AD, it looks the same to the opponent (but can be screwed up by the P1 pointer). So you can use it to keep the opponent guessing where you are going, and punish them with Fair if they try to catch you, or find an opening to go in with a Fair. And if you get shield grabbed doing that, you can always go for a fast fall grab to counter. The point is to trick them into a mistake because you are disappearing.

The hitbox problem is real, but I usually manage to hit them if I am close to the ground right in front of them. As for the full jump Nair, i thought it could be useful not as an approach, but for spacing, if they try to punish your landing. But the option you said can be just as good for that, if not better, so thats nice

 

[Karsticles]

I understand what you are saying about it being a bad approach option alone, but i think you are missing one of the points.
When you do a SHAD in place, retreating, going in, or a full jump AD, it looks the same to the opponent (but can be screwed up by the P1 pointer). So you can use it to keep the opponent guessing where you are going, and punish them with Fair if they try to catch you, or find an opening to go in with a Fair. And if you get shield grabbed doing that, you can always go for a fast fall grab to counter. The point is to trick them into a mistake because you are disappearing.

The hitbox problem is real, but I usually manage to hit them if I am close to the ground right in front of them. As for the full jump Nair, i thought it could be useful not as an approach, but for spacing, if they try to punish your landing. But the option you said can be just as good for that, if not better, so thats nice

The question about any action you take in a fighting game is what the risks are vs. The gains. I think the gains are extremely minimal here, but the risk is medium.

 

[Chiroz]

Honestly I rarely go ham on my opponent with an F-Air on the ground. My regular aerial "approach" is to either:

1-) Run at my opponent and then SH/FH->retreating N-Air.

2-) FH approaching N-Air and switch momentum just as I reach the peak of my jump (try to reach the very edge of his shield before turning around).

3-) Jump (either SH of FH) through my opponent at full air speed while N-Airing.




The common property of these 3 "approaches" is that at some point during the N-Air, I poke my opponent but always at the end of the N-Air I am way too far to get punished (farther than a tether grab). N-Air has a long lasting hitbox and Mewtwo has incredible air speed (although his air acceleration is mediocre), use this to your advantage.

 

[Karsticles]

Honestly I rarely go ham on my opponent with an F-Air on the ground. My regular aerial "approach" is to either:

1-) Run at my opponent and then SH/FH->retreating N-Air.

2-) FH approaching N-Air and switch momentum just as I reach the peak of my jump (try to reach the very edge of his shield before turning around).

3-) Jump (either SH of FH) through my opponent at full air speed while N-Airing.




The common property of these 3 "approaches" is that at some point during the N-Air, I poke my opponent but always at the end of the N-Air I am way too far to get punished (farther than a tether grab). N-Air has a long lasting hitbox and Mewtwo has incredible air speed (although his air acceleration is mediocre), use this to your advantage.

Glad to see that other Mewtwo players are finding the same strategies. My Mewtwo play is honestly at least 25% Nair mindgames. It is undoubtedly his best move, and the last patch made it much safer against faster characters. I watch other Mewtwo players use it once or twice a match, and I wonder what the heck they are thinking. Nair is life.

Also, some characters have almost no hope of doing anything about Nair spam. Most slow runners and heavies just have to eat it over and over. I have yet to meet a Mewtwo that understands the incredible synergy between Nair and Shadow Ball.

 

[Chiroz]

Glad to see that other Mewtwo players are finding the same strategies. My Mewtwo play is honestly at least 25% Nair mindgames. It is undoubtedly his best move, and the last patch made it much safer against faster characters. I watch other Mewtwo players use it once or twice a match, and I wonder what the heck they are thinking. Nair is life.

Also, some characters have almost no hope of doing anything about Nair spam. Most slow runners and heavies just have to eat it over and over. I have yet to meet a Mewtwo that understands the incredible synergy between Nair and Shadow Ball.

What is this synergy? I might be unaware of it.

Normally N-Air is my go-to neutral spam aerial (I mix N-Air with empty hops with empty dashes with throwing/charging shadow ball little by little). My go-to gimp tool when enemies are recovering low (if they're recovering high I go for B-Airs). My go-to approach option.



I use it a lot to be honest but I still think it needs a buff. I have STILL been punished out of hitting with N-Air, even after the lag reduction. I landed with N-Air after dragging my opponent with me and I buffered a jab and I was jabbed first instead by a Falcon. I get Falcon's jab is 3 frames faster than ours but Falcon also had to input a turn around (since they land facing backwards) then that means that at the very most Mewtwo's N-Air hits have a frame advantage of 1 (and to be honest, it probably has no advantage at all, your opponent probably has it) which I find ridiculously low for an attack you LANDED.

Also I think Mewtwo lacks an "anti-combo" aerial and he either needs one or needs to get more aerial acceleration (or more weight, but I feel this is the "lazy" way of balancing him and doesn't really fix the problem, it only diminishes it). Mewtwo is waaaay too light for how easy he is to combo, he needs something to defend himself. After much thought I think the best "anti-combo" option is buffing his N-Air's startup and vertical hitbox size (so it hits below him) (and then buff it's hitstun a bit so Mewtwo has at least time to jab).

I know all these buffs might make N-Air crazy, but in terms of balance Mewtwo would still be a balanced char, probably still mid tier, just with an aerial that is clearly better than all the rest (which most chars do too. Sheik F-Air?).

 

[Karsticles]

What is this synergy? I might be unaware of it.

Normally N-Air is my go-to neutral spam aerial (I mix N-Air with empty hops with empty dashes with throwing/charging shadow ball little by little). My go-to gimp tool when enemies are recovering low (if they're recovering high I go for B-Airs). My go-to approach option.



I use it a lot to be honest but I still think it needs a buff. I have STILL been punished out of hitting with N-Air, even after the lag reduction. I landed with N-Air after dragging my opponent with me and I buffered a jab and I was jabbed first instead by a Falcon. I get Falcon's jab is 3 frames faster than ours but Falcon also had to input a turn around (since they land facing backwards) then that means that at the very most Mewtwo's N-Air hits have a frame advantage of 1 (and to be honest, it probably has no advantage at all, your opponent probably has it) which I find ridiculously low for an attack you LANDED.

Also I think Mewtwo lacks an "anti-combo" aerial and he either needs one or needs to get more aerial acceleration (or more weight, but I feel this is the "lazy" way of balancing him and doesn't really fix the problem, it only diminishes it). Mewtwo is waaaay too light for how easy he is to combo, he needs something to defend himself. After much thought I think the best "anti-combo" option is buffing his N-Air's startup and vertical hitbox size (so it hits below him) (and then buff it's hitstun a bit so Mewtwo has at least time to jab).

I know all these buffs might make N-Air crazy, but in terms of balance Mewtwo would still be a balanced char, probably still mid tier, just with an aerial that is clearly better than all the rest (which most chars do too. Sheik F-Air?).

I completely agree with what Nair needs.Bigger hitbox under him, more hitstun, and faster startup. Frame 11 OoS punish is pretty lame in this game.

I use Fair as an anti-combo punish a LOT. Mewtwo's air dodge recovers quickly, and Fair comes out fast. I do early air dodges against a lot of characters and get a punish. It destroys quite a few combo strings, too.

It would be amazing if Teleport could interrupt combos. Then his weight would be justified. No reason it shouldn't be invincible for its entire duration.

Nair synergy: Shadow Ball does quite a bit of shield damage. If any bit of a character is uncovered by a shield but Nair sparks are going, they get hit. Nair basically destroys characters that are low on their shield. If someone blocks a fully charged Shadow Ball without perfect shielding, I will run up and throw a Nair at them. If they don't dodge, the attack is basically an unblockable. I discovered this while testing Nair safety against Dorf in training mode. The bigger the character, the more effective this is, because their skin gets exposed more. Tall guys like Ganondorf, Ryu, Dedede, DK, and Rosalina eat this hard.

If the shield has recovered enough to stay up for most of Nair, the last hit still provides enough kick to make the attempt worthwhile. At first I thought the whole world just sucks at blocking Nair, but now I know it just can't be blocked if you set it up right.

 

[Chiroz]

I completely agree with what Nair needs.Bigger hitbox under him, more hitstun, and faster startup. Frame 11 OoS punish is pretty lame in this game.

I use Fair as an anti-combo punish a LOT. Mewtwo's air dodge recovers quickly, and Fair comes out fast. I do early air dodges against a lot of characters and get a punish. It destroys quite a few combo strings, too.

It would be amazing if Teleport could interrupt combos. Then his weight would be justified. No reason it shouldn't be invincible for its entire duration.

Nair synergy: Shadow Ball does quite a bit of shield damage. If any bit of a character is uncovered by a shield but Nair sparks are going, they get hit. Nair basically destroys characters that are low on their shield. If someone blocks a fully charged Shadow Ball without perfect shielding, I will run up and throw a Nair at them. If they don't dodge, the attack is basically an unblockable. I discovered this while testing Nair safety against Dorf in training mode. The bigger the character, the more effective this is, because their skin gets exposed more. Tall guys like Ganondorf, Ryu, Dedede, DK, and Rosalina eat this hard.

If the shield has recovered enough to stay up for most of Nair, the last hit still provides enough kick to make the attempt worthwhile. At first I thought the whole world just sucks at blocking Nair, but now I know it just can't be blocked if you set it up right.

I will definitely test that out. That's a good info to know.



Edit: Tested on training and you're right. After they've blocked a Shadow Ball, even a half charged one, N-Air goes through the shield (I tried on Pikachu too). I still need to test how effective it is in a real game though, as most people will not just stand and shield when their shield is that low.

I will however try and look for more attacks that go through shield after a Shadow Ball, I like your way of thinking :3.

 

[Karsticles]

I will definitely test that out. That's a good info to know.



Edit: Tested on training and you're right. After they've blocked a Shadow Ball, even a half charged one, N-Air goes through the shield (I tried on Pikachu too). I still need to test how effective it is in a real game though, as most people will not just stand and shield when their shield is that low.

I will however try and look for more attacks that go through shield after a Shadow Ball, I like your way of thinking :3.

I owe my wife for willingly spending hours with me in training mode testing stuff out, haha.

If a shield is low enough, Dtilt and Fair sometimes become unlockable. The leg/head need to be exposed, respectively. At high % I will sometimes go for the SH Fair after blocked Shadow Ball, and it gets a KO.

It works well in a lot of regular matches, especially if you approach by running up and Nair inside of someone like we do. This is also why I HATE Yoshi. His eggg shield always 100% covers him, so he is immune to this tech. -_- If you run up and Nair a lot, pay attention to how people roll when they try to escape. At kill %, run up, short hop, and fire Shadow Ball wherever they tend to run. Extremely effective. At high %, I tend to save Shadow Ball as a punish KO tool.

Also, I killed a Fox and Falco player yesterday by using the 3/4 charge tech. I recommend exploring that.

 

[Chiroz]

I owe my wife for willingly spending hours with me in training mode testing stuff out, haha.

If a shield is low enough, Dtilt and Fair sometimes become unlockable. The leg/head need to be exposed, respectively. At high % I will sometimes go for the SH Fair after blocked Shadow Ball, and it gets a KO.

It works well in a lot of regular matches, especially if you approach by running up and Nair inside of someone like we do. This is also why I HATE Yoshi. His eggg shield always 100% covers him, so he is immune to this tech. -_- If you run up and Nair a lot, pay attention to how people roll when they try to escape. At kill %, run up, short hop, and fire Shadow Ball wherever they tend to run. Extremely effective. At high %, I tend to save Shadow Ball as a punish KO tool.

Also, I killed a Fox and Falco player yesterday by using the 3/4 charge tech. I recommend exploring that.

Yea, but normally if I am fighting a reflector-heavy user I will just refresh my Shadow Ball with jabs, tilts and pummels and then just utilize the refreshed Shadow Ball. I guess it's really good to keep in mind that I can just charge it about 3/4th of the way and not need to refresh the Shadow Ball.

 

[Karsticles]

Yea, but normally if I am fighting a reflector-heavy user I will just refresh my Shadow Ball with jabs, tilts and pummels and then just utilize the refreshed Shadow Ball. I guess it's really good to keep in mind that I can just charge it about 3/4th of the way and not need to refresh the Shadow Ball.

It can also be nice because at 3/4 charge, you will hit a lot in general just because it isn't expected.

My usual plan of action is to fully charge Shadow Ball and just leave it there. Healers and reflectors throw out so many random reflects because they are paranoid, and we get a lot of free hits as a result. Shadow Ball does work just by being charged, it doesn't have to be thrown. Save the throw for when they make a big mistake or you are at KO %.

 

[MaTT*xD]

The question about any action you take in a fighting game is what the risks are vs. The gains. I think the gains are extremely minimal here, but the risk is medium.

I thought someone could make it work, but if you don't think the gains are good enough, thats fine.

I'll try more Nairs as you guys were talking about, seems pretty good.

 

[godogod]

N air is my least used move on Mewtwo by far. I need to use it more often. Interesting tips.Thanks!

 

[Coffee™]

M2's SHAD seems to be quite undervalued here. It's really one of his best tools in neutral. Also good stuff @ Karsticles on that mention of the SB and Nair synergy, really useful stuff.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Glad to see that other Mewtwo players are finding the same strategies. My Mewtwo play is honestly at least 25% Nair mindgames. It is undoubtedly his best move, and the last patch made it much safer against faster characters. I watch other Mewtwo players use it once or twice a match, and I wonder what the heck they are thinking. Nair is life.

Also, some characters have almost no hope of doing anything about Nair spam. Most slow runners and heavies just have to eat it over and over. I have yet to meet a Mewtwo that understands the incredible synergy between Nair and Shadow Ball.

Do you have videos i can see plz? Or anyone? Of a beast mew2.

 

[Karsticles]

Do you have videos i can see plz? Or anyone? Of a beast mew2.

Check the video thread.

Look up Trela and Nature.