Shine, make em wonder what you got...

[Meistermayo]

If every character had a jumpcancelable move in melee, would the implications be negative or positive?

Not every character's jc move would necessarily have to be a shine (having some invincibility, can be held, can reflect projectiles, can turn around while using it) it just has to be a move that can follow up an l canceled aerial and allow for some shield pressure like a spacie would.

Their moves could still launch forwards or upwards on hit at different angles like fox or falcos, or it would just pop them up like a jab.


Would this make the game become too linear, boring, or too spacie based?

Would this make the game faster, balance characters a little more, make characters more fun to watch?

 

[Deleted member]

Nah I don't think so because there is already a bunch of jc-able moves.

 

[Meistermayo]

Nah I don't think so because there is already a bunch of jc-able moves.

Um im not certain youre correct on that point.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

It would take away a lot of what makes spacies unique and give a lot of characters less punishable approaches. In a word, it might push spacies out of being top tier meta characters.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Well that depends on a lot. The shine is really good because it hits and has invincibility on frame one, is able to be jump canceled on frame four or five, can be performed out of a run, and can be comboed off of very well especially considering Fox's horizontal movement and Falco's vertical movement. If Bowser's forward smash could be cancelled with a jump after the hitbox comes out that's not going to make it much better. That's a kind of extreme example but I think it would hold true with a lot of ground and special moves.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Well that depends on a lot. The shine is really good because it hits and has invincibility on frame one, is able to be jump canceled on frame four or five, can be performed out of a run, and can be comboed off of very well especially considering Fox's horizontal movement and Falco's vertical movement. If Bowser's forward smash could be cancelled with a jump after the hitbox comes out that's not going to make it much better. That's a kind of extreme example but I think it would hold true with a lot of ground and special moves.

My math for Bowser's startup lag to Fair is in another thread so I'll grab it when I have a chance but suffice to say his fair is active on frame 17 if we start counting as soon as a player presses x/y. Being able to jump cancel his fair into another fair would actually be extremely useful because the big weakness of bowser is how much his has to invest in his approaches. The second fair means that he can conceivably producing a retreating/neutral fair after the first making his primary approach way, way safer. All this being considered with that initial 17 frame investment in mind; whenever bowser goes in he really has to make sure it counts/make it as safe as possible.

EDIT:

Found it

@Karmatrix

Watch out for Bowser's big hitboxes (Fair and such) and don't fall for the easy stuff like hard reads. Space him out (isn't difficult) and make him invest on his approaches. Bowser's terrible DD and high jumping/landing lag means that if he wants to put out his big aerial hitboxes he really has to invest a lot on them. Simple math below:

Bowser's jump lag is 9 frames + Fair hitbox starts on frame 8 (meaty section is 9-10) = 17 frames for the move to even start! That's extremely slow when you realize most character's nair out of shields start on frame 7. Plus its a super obscure MU. I honestly wouldn't worry about this at all.

If you don't mind could I know your impetus for this thread?

 

[Dolla Pills]

First I want to point out my example was for his forward smash, not forward aerial. That being said, I admitted that it was a pretty silly example because of the nature of that specific move.

The more important distinction is that other ground and special moves would be similar to this, but not aerials (although I didn't directly say the last part). I think the ability to jump cancel an aerial after the hitbox comes out would be pretty crazy for a number of reasons. For one, combos would be much easier to pull off, and for a game where punishes frequently lead to death at high level this would only make things more ridiculous (and maybe more entertaining to watch). Spacing also would be easier because you could throw out aerials all the time and be relatively safe. You could always aerial someone's shield and then just jump away. These gameplay changes wouldn't really apply to other types of moves though (at least that's what my point is, feel free to prove me wrong), so that's why I didn't mention anything about aerials.

It's kind of an arbitrary distinction though, because as far as I know there aren't other moves that are able to be jump cancelled in the same way, so why specify only ground and special moves? I just drew the line there because it would make a huge difference for aerials and be pretty game altering.

Edit:
I guess jump canceling projectiles like Samus's missiles could change up certain characters. For the most part though I'm standing by this for now.

 

[Meistermayo]

It would take away a lot of what makes spacies unique and give a lot of characters less punishable approaches. In a word, it might push spacies out of being top tier meta characters.

Okay, so theres the trade off of making spacies less unique. However, it seems to me that spacies may be the most energetic and interesting characters to watch. Therefore would it be worth the tradeoff of diversity to make characters more fun to watch and alter their tier placement?

Well that depends on a lot. The shine is really good because it hits and has invincibility on frame one, is able to be jump canceled on frame four or five, can be performed out of a run, and can be comboed off of very well especially considering Fox's horizontal movement and Falco's vertical movement. If Bowser's forward smash could be cancelled with a jump after the hitbox comes out that's not going to make it much better. That's a kind of extreme example but I think it would hold true with a lot of ground and special moves.

Yes, the theory does not specify that the jc move has to have all of the qualities of a shine. However using an aerial as the jc able move still could be a possibility, i guess. But it wouldnt be universal, it would just be the one character's one and only jc able move. I guess some examples could be

• Mario's down b
• Falcon side b
• One of Links tilts or a bomb
• Dks side b or uair
• Peachs ftilt