Shield SDI Tech: Marth Killer

[Moltov]

Using some knowledge from two different techs I present the "Moltov" version of the Marth killer which combines two different techniques that are previously discovered. Marth killer + Shield SDI.

Example:

Here we can see that Fox slides off the edge with one shield SDI input and kills Marth when he otherwise would have made it back to the ledge.
However only a few characters can perform this trick due to the distance that each character stands up from the ledge, and it is not perfect. If Marth spaces his up b very far away from the ledge he will not touch your shield. Here's the list of the characters that I tested for this tech:
Fox
Puff
Peach (Must fast fall within 8 frames of falling and then release down)
Falco
Sheik
Captain Falcon
Marth

(I have not tested over 100% get up animations.)

How to perform:
Stand up from the ledge, then press and hold the Z button. During the 4 frames of initial shield stun you must have the analog stick in the neutral position and flick it towards the direction of the ledge in the straight horizontal notch.
Visual cues:
Here are some visual cues on when you should press away on the analog that I have tested out and are decent. This could change due to human reaction times so you should find what works for you.

This is a low risk high reward trick because if you succeed Marth is either dead or is in a lot of lag on stage. If you input the press to late most likely nothing will happen since you are in the "sliding stun" from light shielding the attack. If you input early then you will roll towards the ledge.

 

[-ACE-]

Nice Moltov. Another random marth killer trick, is when you know he'll land on stage, switch up your shield DI at the last second and don't go to the ledge at all so you can punish his landing lag immediately.

 

[Bones0]

Why are there different colors? Does it signify the distance the character is from the ledge after a ledge stand, and if so, does it even matter if they all need a single SSDI input? If you get around to testing more, knowing who can SSDI onto the ledge after a ledge attack would be useful to know too. I know spacies' ledge attack leaves them almost as close to the ledge as a ledge stand.

 

[Ten of Nine]

The endless depth of this game....

So many seemingly unrelated things interact in such meaningful and practical ways that you have to think that all this stuff we keep discovering was 100% intended or there were at least some hardcore genius FG programmers way ahead of their time lovingly adding all this emergent advanced gameplay as they went.

If you could take on Melee as a major at university; no core classes or fluff and it would probably still take longer than 4 years to learn it all.

Well anywhoo this is one more step in making me feel better about having such an overpowered sword wielding speed demon massive grab ranged character in this game.

 

[Moltov]

Why are there different colors? Does it signify the distance the character is from the ledge after a ledge stand, and if so, does it even matter if they all need a single SSDI input? If you get around to testing more, knowing who can SSDI onto the ledge after a ledge attack would be useful to know too. I know spacies' ledge attack leaves them almost as close to the ledge as a ledge stand.

The colors mean whether or not they can grab the ledge with a single SDI input. Green means they grab the ledge, red means they aren't close enough. I chose to put Peach at yellow because she can reach but she doesn't grab the ledge fast enough to beat Marth unless you fast fall.
Yeah it'd be interesting to know with get up attacks and their slow counterparts as well. I'll test it when I get some free time.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

This is a good setup, but doing a high double jump ledge regrab as a lot of these characters is already easy enough when Marth's that low. Always nice to have some kind of backup if you don't manage your ledge invincibility too well though. I'd also like to mention that SDI+Lightshield edgehog will allow you to do it to some multi-hit recoveries as well (aim to get off to the ledge towards the apex of their ascension).

 

[-ACE-]

I'd also like to mention that SDI+Lightshield edgehog will allow you to do it to some multi-hit recoveries as well

What a fake out. Imagine pulling this when Marth has his jump relatively close to ledge. Lots of marths like to dj nair you when you're in light shield SASDI'ing out so that the first hit of nair makes you enter tumble/fall and the second hit hits you/knocks you away from ledge. Some characters spacing after standup/ledge attack could allow you to SSDI the first hit of nair and SASDI the second hit to take ledge as they fall and are forced to up-b and be edgehogged.

Alternatively, after you roll to the ledge and light shield, you could probably simply shield the first of nair (no shield DI) and SSDI the second to take ledge as well, also leaving marth helpless. Interesting.

 

[Ten of Nine]

What a fake out. Imagine pulling this when Marth has his jump relatively close to ledge. Lots of marths like to dj nair you when you're in light shield SASDI'ing out so that the first hit of nair makes you enter tumble/fall and the second hit hits you/knocks you away from ledge. Some characters spacing after standup/ledge attack could allow you to SSDI the first hit of nair and SASDI the second hit to take ledge as they fall and are forced to up-b and be edgehogged.

Alternatively, after you roll to the ledge and light shield, you could probably simply shield the first of nair (no shield DI) and SSDI the second to take ledge as well, also leaving marth helpless. Interesting.

I've never experienced Marths trying the Nair thing against Marth Killer (I don't recall this being used in top brackets at nationals either but I probably just missed it) Aren't there many options to punish that choice, seems so risky for them even as a mix up. It's 50 frames for them and the only other alternate option select is that they could be going for DJ sweet spotting/air dodging. In these scenarios I'm not sure why one would be going for Marth Killer.

But if you SDI the first hit and slide off don't many character have a fast enough Bair before 2nd hit (I know for sure Marth can outspace by doing a DJ Dair), or just a DJ then FF ledge grab before they can Up-B < basically the only option they have after the 50 frames of Nair.

I personally only ever use Marth Killer when I know they have to go for an Up-B. All the other Marth recoveries can be covered preemptively if you're aggressive, only an early risky high Up-B can counter an edge guard attempt.

 

[-ACE-]

I've never experienced Marths trying the Nair thing against Marth Killer (I don't recall this being used in top brackets at nationals either but I probably just missed it) Aren't there many options to punish that choice, seems so risky for them even as a mix up. It's 50 frames for them and the only other alternate option select is that they could be going for DJ sweet spotting/air dodging. In these scenarios I'm not sure why one would be going for Marth Killer.

It's extremely common. In melee, you have to be ready for all kinds of tactics and mentalities, not just what you see in top brackets. There are lots of baits that won't work on ~top 20-30 players but work on the vast majority of others. Most people, like you, essentially only use MK when Marth has to up-b. However, you can often act like you're trying to MK and do something else instead. By using MK when they have their jump you can lead them to believe you assessed the situation incorrectly (they'll assume that you think they don't have their jump when they do). From here, depending on your character you can just bair their dj attempt whether they aerial or not. This bait works, especially at nationals where no one really knows your personal habits. Over the past 11 years I've seen tons of marth's dj nair/fair people light shielding for MK to spoil their plan of being pushed to ledge and punishing marth's landing lag if they go for MK at the wrong time.

But if you SDI the first hit and slide off don't many character have a fast enough Bair before 2nd hit (I know for sure Marth can outspace by doing a DJ Dair), or just a DJ then FF ledge grab before they can Up-B < basically the only option they have after the 50 frames of Nair.

After the first hit, no I don't think many characters can sneak in a bair before the second one. If so, only a few can. Pretty sure you just get hit by nair in this case.

only an early risky high Up-B can counter an edge guard attempt.

Sounds like the edgeguard attempt is risky as you can be stage spiked or hit then edgeguarded if he up-b's directly to ledge. Much better to punish a side-b, dj aerial, or right when he's going to jump-up-b (aggressive)... Or abuse MK/a MK bait.