Shiek should be a Zelda transformation character.

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I'm sick of it, all this bull**** about how Shiek should be a seperate character.

It's like Batman and Bruce Wayne guys (Batman Begins, of course), one cannot exist without the other, and they are the SAME person - different egos, SAME PERSON. THE APPEAL IS THAT HE TRANSFORMS...

Discuss.

 

[white_mage]

Well, what about clones in Melee: Mario/ Dr. Mario? Link/Young Link?

just putting that out there.

 

[limitbreak]

I think she should be a sererate character. Zelda was basically an unused character because Sheik was just that much better.

 

[Reyairia]

I think Sheik should be scrapped entirely. Zelda does not deserve to be an unused character just because of a transformation into a broken overpowered character and Sheik does not deserve to have her own character slot being only an alter-ego to Zelda and being an exclusive side character to a game made 10 years ago.

 

[SuperLink9]

It's not fair calling Zelda "unused" because of her transformation. Not at all. Dr Mario is unused, but it's not fair to blame Link for it. They're 2 characters with 2 movesets.

Making Zelda & Shiek seperate characters will have no difference to how many people play as either fans may just be happier because their character will get another move.

Besides, the entire argument for Shiek being a seperate character, is that arguably they're NOT the same person. Not anymore at least.

 

[Reyairia]

It's not fair calling Zelda "unused" because of her transformation. Not at all. Dr Mario is unused, but it's not fair to blame Link for it. They're 2 characters with 2 movesets.

Yeah, but at least people respect Link and Dr. Mario as separate characters, which they are in the character selection page. When people talk about Zelda in Melee, most of the time they're talking about Sheik. I'm here in the Zelda forum and all I see is Sheik Sheik Sheik Sheik. Zelda isn't really respected as her own character.

Making Zelda & Shiek seperate characters will have no difference to how many people play as either fans may just be happier because their character will get another move.

I'm not a Zelda fan, actually. And I'd be upset if a character I wanted didn't get in because Sheik occupies a spot which I don't think she deserves anymore.

Besides, the entire argument for Shiek being a seperate character, is that arguably they're NOT the same person. Not anymore at least.

It's still Twilight Princess Zelda representing the entire Legend of Zelda series, same with all the other characters.

 

[SuperLink9]

Jeesus, there's no specific character limit, & there's no way Shiek would "replace" or take up a space that could have been given to someone important.

It's not Shiek's fault that the Smashboards forum had to put her in the same board as Zelda. If you split them in 2, a Zelda board & a Shiek board, why would Shiek get any more & Zelda get any less? The Zelda board would still be as active as the Zelda threads on this board are now, all it would do is waste space on the forum.

It's like putting Sonic & Ike in the same board & thinking Sonic should be ditched because people make more threads about Sonic than they do Ike. That's just silly.

Shiek sure as hell has more right to a seperate character slot than Dr Mario, surely you can agree? I know this is Brawl, but if you had to choose one or the other, the answer would be obvious.

Ike is 1 character from 1 or 2 of the Fire Emblem games, is he a waste of space because he doesn't represent the whole Fire Emblem series...

 

[Drake3]

Jeesus, there's no specific character limit, & there's no way Shiek would "replace" or take up a space that could have been given to someone important.

Well that's agreed.

It's not Shiek's fault that the Smashboards forum had to put her in the same board as Zelda. If you split them in 2, a Zelda board & a Shiek board, why would Shiek get any more & Zelda get any less? The Zelda board would still be as active as the Zelda threads on this board are now, all it would do is waste space on the forum.

Well I know why the Melee Sheik board got more attention than the Melee Zelda board. More people want to play as the broken, overpowered character than the poor gimpy one. Which, as I'm going to say again, is unfair, because one of those is important to the franchise and one of those is a disguise. But this is the Zelda board and most topics seem to revolve around Sheik. Granted, it is a hot topic because Sakurai doesn't seem to want to say whether or not he's kept him/her or not, but there are numerous topics about "it" and all repeat the same basic points.

It's like putting Sonic & Ike in the same board & thinking Sonic should be ditched because people make more threads about Sonic than they do Ike. That's just silly.

...What? Is Sonic a disguise that Ike used in 1 game?

Shiek sure as hell has more right to a seperate character slot than Dr Mario, surely you can agree? I know this is Brawl, but if you had to choose one or the other, the answer would be obvious.

Marginally, but they're both the same aren't they? Both are franchise characters dressed up in something else, right? If you're going with the Smash franchise, then Sheik deserves it much more since s/he has an original moveset.

Ike is 1 character from 1 or 2 of the Fire Emblem games, is he a waste of space because he doesn't represent the whole Fire Emblem series...

Lol you should've used someone less easy to refute. Ike has been in 2 Fire Emblem games, one of them being the most recent version, and in both he is one of the main characters. I'm going by topics I saw on random sites when I say this because I haven't really played FE before, but Ike was well loved and well respected before he made his way into Brawl. Gamefaqs sort of exploded in joy when he was announced as a playable character. I can't quite say the same for Sheik.

 

[Iris]

I'm sick of it, all this bull**** about how Shiek should be a seperate character.

It's like Batman and Bruce Wayne guys (Batman Begins, of course), one cannot exist without the other, and they are the SAME person - different egos, SAME PERSON. THE APPEAL IS THAT HE TRANSFORMS...

Discuss.

What the hell are you talking about? Of course they can exist without eachother. Seriously, it's been like 10 years since Sheik appeared. Zelda doesn't need an alter-ego in her own games, why should she anywhere else? It's not as if she's combat impaired.

Zelda's not some trivial character in the franchise. The series is NAMED AFTER HER. She doesn't need to have an extra character crammed into her moveset when she's a perfectly applicable fighter all by herself.

 

[Drake3]

Oh I forgot to mention. Do not place Sheik on Batman's level.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

What the hell are you talking about? Of course they can exist without eachother. Seriously, it's been like 10 years since Sheik appeared. Zelda doesn't need an alter-ego in her own games, why should she anywhere else? It's not as if she's combat impaired.

Zelda's not some trivial character in the franchise. The series is NAMED AFTER HER. She doesn't need to have an extra character crammed into her moveset when she's a perfectly applicable fighter all by herself.

You clearly don't understand Batman. It's because of Bruce Wayne that Batman exists. You're a tool, and instead of explaining the story to you, I invite you to go watch the movie and read some of the comics at this time. Enjoy.

You're second paragraph has value, however.

This is quite true, but here's the thing:

If you don't want to be Shiek, DON'T TRANSFORM.

If the designers are smart enough they will have compensation for a lack of a down-b for Zelda. After all, it's quite evident that Shiek has never needed a down-b. They can do it for Zelda.

If not, so? You're upset that professionals (other people) won't use her. While Zelda is broken in Melee, I still used her because I like the character. A Shiek addition won't get in your way.

Oh I forgot to mention. Do not place Sheik on Batman's level.

The analagy is still valid. Troll less.

 

[Drake3]

The analagy is still valid. Troll less.

No it really isn't.

Bruce Wayne- Batman
Zelda - Sheik
Zelda - Tetra

Make better topics.

 

[Iris]

You clearly don't understand Batman. It's because of Bruce Wayne that Batman exists. You're a tool, and instead of explaining the story to you, I offer you to go watch the movie and read some of the comics at this time. Enjoy.

Oh wow. You're joking, right? Because that's a god-awful analogy. The only similarity between Sheik and Batman is that it's just a costume. Difference is that Bruce Wayne needs the Batman costume to hide his identity and that the Batman alter-ego is always a recurring character. Zelda hasn't needed a disguise in 10 years and Sheik isn't a recurring character.

You're second paragraph has value, however.

This is quite true, but here's the thing:

If you don't want to be Shiek, DON'T TRANSFORM.

If the designers are smart enough they will have compensation for a lack of a down-b for Zelda. After all, it's quite evident that Shiek has never needed a down-b. They can do it for Zelda.

If not, so? You're upset that professionals (other people) won't use her. While Zelda is broken in Melee, I still used her because I like the character. A Shiek addition won't get in your way.

Sorry, but if Zelda and Sheik were able to compete by themselves and not have to change to be an efficient character, then they'd just add a slot for Sheik rather than wasting part of their movesets. In Melee, they tried balancing them to be interdependent, and we all saw how that worked out. Sheik had insane damage racking abilities and Zelda was terrible at it, making them uneven when you play as just one, and changing between them interrupts the flow of battle. If they were balanced to be interdependent, then they'd still have major weaknesses, making 1 alone a bad character, which Zelda doesn't deserve whatsoever. If I don't want to be Sheik, I won't be, but I shouldn't have to use a Zelda at half potential because of it, because that's selling Zelda short.

What's the point of two efficient characters in one though? Why not stop being lazy and either make them separate, or worse, interdependent? Rather than sacrificing specials for the sake of an attached character, they should just be equal to the other characters by themselves and have complete movesets.

As for me being mad that pros don't use her, I'm not. I'm mad that pros can't use her because she's greatly weakened for Sheik's sake.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

The only similarity between Sheik and Batman is that it's just a costume. Difference is that Bruce Wayne needs the Batman costume to hide his identity

You are truly a tool. Zelda uses Shiek to hide her identity also. I can use many other analagies here too: Klark Kent, Bruce Banner, etc. The point is that it's the SAME PERSON.

Zelda hasn't needed a disguise in 10 years and Sheik isn't a recurring character.

There have only been 2 really important Zelda Games in that time. OoT, and TP. TP makes a reference to the Shiekah. I've said this many times before:

Who's to say that the TP Zelda can't adopt a "Shiek" alter ego? She wears a cloak in TP with the Eye of Truth on it, and that means that the Shiekah tradition is not dead. There's even a **** village made by them in the game.

In Melee, they tried balancing them to be interdependent, and we all saw how that worked out.

Bull**** more please.

What's the point of two efficient characters in one though? Why not stop being lazy and either make them separate, or worse, interdependent? Rather than sacrificing specials for the sake of an attached character, they should just be equal to the other characters by themselves and have complete movesets.

And why not add a transformation? THAT'S THE APPEAL.

If there was no transformation, it wouldn't really be as exciting, would it? Add stronger attacks/techniques for every other move, and you're fine.

As for me being mad that pros don't use her, I'm not. I'm mad that pros can't use her because she's greatly weakened for Sheik's sake.

And Roy is gimped too, but I still main him.

Bruce Wayne- Batman
Zelda - Sheik
Zelda - Tetra

Make better topics.

First of all, if this topic is too much for you to handle, go somewhere else.

Second of all, what the **** are you talking about? You KNOW what the point of the analagy was, drop it. If you TRULY don't get it, send me a PM and I will have no problem explaining it to you. I'm not going to argue off-topic here with you anymore.

 

[Iris]

You are truly a tool. Zelda uses Shiek to hide her identity also. I can use many other analagies here too: Klark Kent, Bruce Banner, etc. The point is that it's the SAME PERSON.

Christ, shut up. So what if it's a disguise? That doesn't make them even comparable in terms of importance to the character they derived from. Just stop trying to back it up, it's completely wrong. Zelda and Sheik are the same person IN ONE GAME ONLY. Knowledge get.

There have only been 2 really important Zelda Games in that time. OoT, and TP. TP makes a reference to the Shiekah. I've said this many times before:

I demand a recount. Majora's mask, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventure, Wind Waker, and Minish Cap were all equally important and equally relevant to the LoZ series.

Who's to say that the TP Zelda can't adopt a "Shiek" alter ego? She wears a cloak in TP with the Eye of Truth on it, and that means that the Shiekah tradition is not dead. There's even a **** village made by them in the game.

Oh wow, a reference to OoT in TP? You've discovered something amazing!

It doesn't make Sheik relevant.

Bull**** more please.

Nice try, but if you payed any attention whatsoever, you can see that the intention behind combining them was to make them balance eachother's weaknesses and work together. How many people exaclty did that?

And why not add a transformation? THAT'S THE APPEAL.

If that were an appeal then more people would actually, you know, transform in battle.

If there was no transformation, it wouldn't really be as exciting, would it? Add stronger attacks/techniques for every other move, and you're fine.

Almost everyone used an individual characters in the Zelda/Sheik combo. It must not have been very exciting if no one bothered to use it, probably because, like I said before, it interrupted the flow of battle and required you to use a completely different fighting style.

Also, like I already said, giving stronger attacks and making them competitive enough by themselves is exactly what merits them to be separate, because the only reason they would be partnered up would be to compliment the weaknesses in both forms.

And Roy is gimped too, but I still main him.

Roy isn't even comparable with Zelda. He's not nearly as weak, and he wasn't purposely weakened to compliment some other character.

 

[SuperLink9]

...What? Is Sonic a disguise that Ike used in 1 game?

No, it's because Zelda & Shiek are 2 different characters with 2 different movesets. I know they're the same persona & everything, but they are different characters, it's not easy to explain, but you know what I mean. Honestly if they had seperate character slots in the first place this whole "unfair to Zelda thing" would have never come up, even though the only difference it would make is one Special attack.

& I agree that my Fire Emblem point wasn't well put across, I don't play FE, but it was still an example of a character that has had a fairly small role in an entire series. Personally even though I've never played FE, I'd heard about Ike & had agreed he would be a good addition.

 

[EPX2]

In response to the argument about how the Zelda/Sheik transformation concept was implemented poorly in Melee - is it really that inconceivable to consider that Sakurai may be fully aware of this? I don't see why it's seemingly impossible for him to have made the necessary changes to make the two characters less flawed. Of course one of the two characters will always be better than the other - it's impossible to make a perfectly balanced game. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible to come as close to making a perfectly balanced game as possible.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Christ, shut up. So what if it's a disguise? That doesn't make them even comparable in terms of importance to the character they derived from. Just stop trying to back it up, it's completely wrong. Zelda and Sheik are the same person IN ONE GAME ONLY. Knowledge get.

LOL as I said, a PM is sufficient. I can send you some links to some good Batman databases. I think I'm done with you here, and as I said, I don't want to argue off topic.

I demand a recount. Majora's mask, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventure, Wind Waker, and Minish Cap were all equally important and equally relevant to the LoZ series.

Majora's Maks - Spinoff (But a **** good one)

Oracles - Spinoffs

Four Swords - Spinoffs

WW - Agreed

Minish Cap - Spinoff

All equally relevant - Disagreed

You - Owned

Oh wow, a reference to OoT in TP? You've discovered something amazing!

It doesn't make Sheik relevant.

Tool, it adds viability for a return.

Nice try, but if you payed any attention whatsoever, you can see that the intention behind combining them was to make them balance eachother's weaknesses and work together. How many people exaclty did that?

More bull****.

If that were an appeal then more people would actually, you know, transform in battle.

They do. I now realize how much you must suck at this game.

it interrupted the flow of battle and required you to use a completely different fighting style.

Hey I can make stuff up too: You fail at life!!

Oh wait..

Roy isn't even comparable with Zelda. He's not nearly as weak, and he wasn't purposely weakened to compliment some other character.

You don't know Roy that well.

From what I've gathered you haven't been playing Melee either enough or at any reasonable skill-level. Until you start making sense it's going to be hard to take you seriously.

 

[SuperLink9]

To be fair, no Zelda game is a spin off... you can't define the difference. They all have their part in the Zelda storyline.

& seriously, I agree with some of your points, but all this flaming isn't necessary.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

To be fair, no Zelda game is a spin off... you can't define the difference. They all have their part in the Zelda storyline.

There are actually multiple timelines. The more important ones stick out. For example, people lining up outside of game stores for their copy of TP, and people not standing in line at game stores for their copy of Minish Cap.

I'm sorry but a spin-off is a spin-off. Yes Smallville is part of the Superman story-line, but it's still a lower budget, more obscure, lower staffed, less anticipated spin-off.

 

[SuperLink9]

Smallville is no doubt a spin off of SuperMan, but a Zelda game is a Zelda game, they're all different Links, but they all have an effect on the Zelda universe as a whole do they not? People didn't Queue for hours for Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, but it was still an important part of the Sonic universe. I could have used a better example I know.

As far as I know, Zelda only has 2 spin offs, Tingle & Link's Crossbow Training. Any full Zelda RPG isn't a spin off. A spin off usually has a different angle, another main character, sometimes even a different genre. Every Zelda is a proper Zelda. Sales are only to do with marketing & hype.

EDIT: I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about spin-offs... because that actually has a factual answer.

 

[Iris]

LOL as I said, a PM is sufficient. I can send you some links to some good Batman databases. I think I'm done with you here, and as I said, I don't want to argue off topic.

Obviously it hasn't gotten through to you yet, probably due to the fact that you're so dense, so I'll let this slide. Just so you know though, Zelda and her one-time alter-ego isn't at all intertwined with her character like superheroes and their true identity. However, to make up for your crappy analogy, I'll make my own based on how I feel about Sheik's spot in Zelda's moveset.

Let's say Wolf Link is going to be in the game. The designers feel lazy and want to conserve slots, so instead of making him a separate character, they attach him to Link's down B. Now Link can't use bombs anymore, but he has a whole extra character! How flashy. Hmm, Wolf Link is kind of weak, so let's boost regular Link's attack to compensate for it. Also, Wolf Link is pretty agile, so we should probably reduce Link's speed and jump dramatically so they're more balanced. Also, Wolf Link's a wolf, his moves have to be fast! We'd better slow down Links though, or else it's unfair to have so many quick moves in one character. Also, Wolf Link probably has shorter range, so he needs more priority. Let's take some from Link to make them balanced. Finally, Wolf Link's recovery is pretty good, but if Link's recovery is too good then he's be cheap! Let's scrap that too.

Tell me, do you really think Link fans would appreciate this change? Link is getting a serious downgrade just so he's not cheap when you combine him with his counterpart, but how many people are going to want to play as Link by himself now?

This is pretty much what happens to Zelda when you try to put Sheik in with her.

Majora's Maks - Spinoff (But a **** good one)

Oracles - Spinoffs

Four Swords - Spinoffs

WW - Agreed

Minish Cap - Spinoff

All equally relevant - Disagreed

You - Owned

Like SuperLink already said, they aren't spinoffs. Just because some are more popular doesn't mean they're more important to the series. If popularity made a difference in what was relevant to the series then we would've seen Sheik again.

Not really sure where you're getting "spinoffs" from anyways. They aren't based on other games besides the fact that Link is still the hero.

Tool, it adds viability for a return.

I guess a town from Ocarina of Time and a symbol with multiple purposes directly correlates with Sheik now!

More bull****.

Easier said than elaborated, huh, since this is a completely citable piece of information that you're too stubborn to acknowledge.

They do. I now realize how much you must suck at this game.

No, they don't. Ask around the boards, see how many people honestly switch between Sheik and Zelda in competitive battles. You're wrong, deal with it.

Hey I can make stuff up too: You fail at life!!

Oh wait..

Oh, so you're implying the transition between Zelda and Sheik takes no time at all and their fighting styles aren't different? Well, you sir are a ******.

You don't know Roy that well.

From what I've gathered you haven't been playing Melee either enough or at any reasonable skill-level. Until you start making sense it's going to be hard to take you seriously.

Check the tiers list, check to see how many Zeldas of equal skill level can defeat Roy, check to see how suited Roy is for competitive play compared to Zelda.

Personally, I don't care if you take me seriously or not. You've already proven that you yourself are a complete joke. Over and out, because you're not worth my time when you can't even defend your side of the argument.

 

[SuperLink9]

Roy isn't very good, but if you're looking at the Tier list, Zelda is worse.

Still, you don't have to abide by the Tier list, the best Zelda players can defeat a "good" Roy player with ease, surely.

Personally I don't think either of you should respond to the provocative bahavior. >.<

 

[Kokichi]

Too much spam / flame, chi.