Sheik or Zelda? 2.5 MU chart Speculation

[Oonai]

This thread serves the purpose of discussing whether Sheik or Zelda is better at combating ________ character.

I'm betting many of you are as curious as I am about the potential to main 'shielda'. My hopes is that working with the sheik and zelda boards, I will be able to compile some info (through early speculation) as to the potential of the 'sheilda' main. Or perhaps it will become obvious that Zelda does not cover sheik's weaknesses (or vise versa).

After we feel we have collected a reasonable representative number of active player responses, an averaged table can be created which shall serve as the 'Sheik or Zelda 2.5 MU Chart v1.0'. Final table will take the following form:

__:zeldabrawl:__:sheikbrawl:
:bowserbrawl:
:dkbrawl:
:diddybrawl:
:foxbrawl:
:icsbrawl:
:ikebrawl:
:dededebrawl:
:kirbybrawl:
:linkbrawl:
:lucasbrawl:
:mariobrawl:
:metaknightbrawl:
:olimarbrawl:
eachbrawl:
ikachubrawl:
itbrawl:
:squirtlebrawl:
:ivysaurbrawl:
harizardbrawl:
:samusbrawl:
:zssbrawl:
:wariobrawl:
:yoshibrawl:
:zeldabrawl:
:sheikbrawl:
:falconbrawl:
:falcobrawl:
:ganonbrawl:
:jigglypuffbrawl:
:lucariobrawl:
:luigibrawl:
:marthbrawl:
:gwbrawl:
:nessbrawl:
:robbrawl:
:snakebrawl:
:sonicbrawl:
:toonlinkbrawl:
:wolfbrawl:

The idea is that deeper discussion can come about after the hashing out of v.1, and ultimately the chart will be popular opinion, and not truly tried and tested data.

(also, I'm new at creating threads and will gladly accept a better table format, as I realize this one cannot be copied and pasted...)

 

[tripwire]

Well I'm hoping this thread can get going pretty soon. As a sorta of Zelda player (she is like my 3rd main) I've become dangerously close to dropping my characters for "Shielda". I figure we should discuss counters to Shiek 1st since this is the Shiek board and then see if Zelda's playstye can in anyway counter the match up for us. I'd suggest starting with any of the following: Marth, Peach, Fox, Falco, Snake, Mario, Diddy Kong, Sonic.

 

[Arcalyth]

Sheik:Marth is 55:45 Sheik. It was awful in Melee because of dthrow and needles. Needles are slightly worse in P:M and dthrow isn't polarizing, balancing the Sheik:Marth matchup slightly. It's easier for Marth to clank needles so Sheik has to work a little harder to get in. Marth doesn't really have any other options to deal with them though, so once Sheik gets inside his range she dominates him. I think that Sheilda probably works vs Marth and you have quite a few options for racking up damage and killing with both characters.

Sheik:Sonic is at LEAST even with Sonic but I wouldn't throw down definite numbers. Sheilda definitely doesn't work vs Sonic because Zelda:Sonic is an absolutely horrid matchup for Zelda. I find it not even worth switching to Zelda to recover, it's that bad imo.

Sheik:Mario is probably close to even but most likely in Sheik's favor. Sheik has to watch out for cape gimps and Mario combos but Mario has to do the same. Sheik can clank fireballs more easily than Mario can clank needles (but watch out for cape). Sheik out-ranges Mario and has better mobility. Zelda can defeat Mario as well, so Sheilda works well here.

Sheik:Fox I'm never really sure how to rate matchups vs Fox because there are some Foxes that I can body easily and others that just make me dizzy. I think both characters can hold their own vs Fox though and Spacies are still the best combo food in the game, so Sheilda works. I think jab reset out of dthrow doesn't work like it does in Melee (makes sense given dthrow changes) which makes tech chasing a little more difficult.

Sheik:Falco I've heard is close to even in Melee and likely is in P:M as well. I find Zelda:Falco more difficult than Zelda:Fox, though. I'd probably just stay Sheik here.

I can't really comment on the others, but I did write my opinions of about half of the cast vs. Zelda over on the Zelda boards.

 

[Solharath]

I'm not entirely convinced of the concept that Sheik gained no bad matchups with Project M. She's quick and easy to use, with the pick-up-ability of MK in terms of how quickly you can be 'good', and I feel like that skews opinion of her.

Case in point, I think the new Bowser or Charizard could give Sheik a run for her money when played well. Nair(from either of them) can mess up your day, and frame 1 OoS(is it? I've heard it claimed as such) for Bowser is a pretty solid option at close range. Most Bowsers out there seem to just be extensions of the Gimpyfish metagame, but what happens when you're up against the actual Gimpy, the leader of the Metagame? I'm aware he's winning almost every tournament he attends. I can't believe not a single good Sheik has fallen to him. But I also want to see some Zelda action against capable Charizards.

Played at their best, I've love to see more of these matchups played rather than, "I beat a local Bowser lol 4stock too good." His super armor can eat a lot of what Sheik can do, and he can bait a grab pretty well with his shield options.

My two cents, but I think it's too early to rule out the emerging metagames of the new and drastically changed characters.

Personally, I find Sheik far more manageable to fight against when using Wario than Zelda. I'd solidly say that Zelda is more useful against the FatMan.

 

[leelue]

Bowser's up b hits on frame 4, but it is invincible starting on frame 1.
Bowser is an unusual character to fight against. Like Sonic's success in 2.1 by be, rat, sethlong, and wizzrobe (I don't know if JJ Linyard won/top4rd anything) It's hard to just learn on the fly where bowser's range is, how to beat the ledge attack, the up b, the koopa claw, the silly down b jump, and omg his Fair hits me from there wtf!?!? I'm not surprised that a good Bowser likeGimpy gets to beat a lot of people first by skill and then by the pure oddness of bowser.

How do you bait a grab in shield?

 

[Solharath]

Boozer's a giant target who can't move very fast normally. If he is near enough to you that a quick dash to JC Grab can get him, you're gonna want to... do just that. But he's got them options. Mostly just UpB OoS to Attack/Retreat/Invincibility shenanigans, but there is a good chance he's shielding next to you because he wants you to approach. He's got that one option but it's a hell of an option.

I know it's beat by needles and etc, but close range... eh, I could see it happening. It's not historically the safest thing, but running away and Fortress Hogging into ledge getup is one of those things. You gotta beat it, but it's comparably pretty fast.

On that note I haven't played many Boozers offline so I'm sort of not trained to fight him yet. Usually it's just me Ftilting and Dthrowing/Bthrowing alldaylong.

 

[Arcalyth]

You can just shield bowser's ledge attack and grab him in the endlag. You can space ledge attack such that you can't get hit by a ledgedrop fair as well, making it easy to dash->grab to punish ledge attack or WD back OOS to escape the ledge attack if Bowser decides to stall instead.

Super, you haven't played vs. Smalls' Bowser?

Edit: Looking back at this post I realize that shielding ledge attack is really dumb and it's smarter to just stay away from it all together >_>

 

[Solharath]

I have, and he doesn't DI Dthrow. It's hardly a thing where I can make a solid idea on the matchup except for some very base data, like hitboxes and what beats what.

Regardless of that, it's an issue of spacing the ledge get up attack. If you give him enough space to breathe, he can get up fairly easily and doesn't have to commit to anything. If you get in close, a ledgegetup has a couple of hitboxes, and for some reason I keep getting shield poked on the last hitbox.

As memory serves, you kept getting hit by his ledge get up as well.

 

[Arcalyth]

He's gotten quite a bit better (at least as of rootfest 5). I was playing vs. Benji's Bowser last night which is how I discovered you can just shield the ledge attack. If you space it near the middle of the attack you only get hit by one hitbox and you can space fair as well as be in range to grab his endlag. I should probably confirm by looking at framedata, but I did this a few times last night.

 

[Solharath]

To be fair, a lot of my Bowser experience comes from wifi where it is a bit harder to punish on reaction. I can shield the first hit, but the second one is trickier. Go ahead and grab the framedata.

Although personally I think Zelda might have the advantage in the matchup, with Din's traps, large hitboxes to hurt Bowser's larger hurtboxes, and her weird weight lets her dip away from followups.

 

[Arcalyth]

Chaos vs Zhime would be a good reference for Bowser vs Zelda (wifi). Dins traps indeed.

I can't solidly say if either character has a clear advantage in the Bowser matchup. Bowser is super vulnerable to grabs and Sheik is the queen of grabs. Her speed also lets her bait Bowser's laggy moves and punish them. I think if you can get past Fortress and if you respect his OOS and ledge game, Bowser is far less threatening... even with armor. You just have to play a bit more carefully imo. Zelda is probably the safer bet, though.

Frame info on Bowser's ledge attack (<100%):
55 frame total. Intangible frames 1-34. On frame 4 there's a entry that says "Model Changer 1: Switch=1, Group=1" but I have no idea what that means.
There are two hitboxes up on frames 7-34: Sakurai angle, 8 damage per hitbox, 70 BKB, 50 KBG.

Here's a photo of frame 14. The rest of the attack looks pretty much the same. I disabled hurtboxes so that his body is more visible (he's completely intangible anyway).

Edit: The framedata would indicate that if you shield the middle of the two hitboxes, you won't get hit by either of them after you shield the first hit since the hitboxes don't regenerate. Free punish.

 

[standardtoaster]

the model changer just means he's going from having arms and legs out to being inside his shell

 

[Arcalyth]

Ah, okay, thanks Toast.