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Sheik Neutral Game advice vs Spacies

N7S

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 24, 2014
Messages
291
Location
Clayton, CA
NNID
NathanSovik
Hey, I'm a :falconmelee: / :sheikmelee: main here and lately my neutral game with Sheik has been slightly lacking on spacies I usually try to enter in with a grab, dash attack, or Fair, but lately I feel I've run out of mix ups and I'm not sure if I should have an up close neutral with Sheik or a zoning based neutral with Sheik and wait for an opening to get the grab. I have watched all of Kira's Sheik tutorials so I know most of the fundamental stuff with Sheik like tech chasing, chain grabbing, needle reversing, canceling needles, and what not. I know how to punish Spacies accordingly, but winning the neutral will make that task much easier. It's been a struggle for me, but I feel a little advice could clear it up a bit.
 

Seal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
300
Location
Chicago
Run up shield and run up wavedash back are great tools to trick people into committing and you can punish them from there. I myself struggle with defensive spacies who like to laser camp, but this works on aggressive type players.
 

Scroll

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
559
Depends on who you play against. Try and pick up on habbits as much as possible and condition them to mess up.
This is easier said than done, but stuff like run up shield and run/walk up WD back, like Seal said, are tools you can use to mess with their spacing thus making it harder to time the Lcanceling. You can grab missed Lcancels.

Many people expect you to do stupid things they can punish or outright beat by crouch cancelling. You can use this to tomahawk (namely the grab) or space your aerials (Fair, Bair and cross up Bair) so you can dash out of it safely.

Working around Falco's lasers is a whole other game though and deserves a dedicated thread if it doesn't exist yet.

Hope that helps
 

Splendid

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 22, 2014
Messages
6
Location
Middlebury. VT
Take to platforms, get a hold on center stage, and basically just use aerials and needles to grab them by the balls and keep them from getting stage control. Once their movement options are cut they have to shield or do something dumb, after which you grab them or edgeguard them. In terms of microsituations, I really like WD back, DD grab, and SH AC fair
 

mdmfromdaridge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
387
Location
The Woodlands, Texas
By the way you describe it I feel like your mental game is still developing. Neutral game is far more than just picking mixups. Mix ups are simply tools.

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702



I could not recommend this guide more. I know it is for street fighter, but the fundamental strategy it teaches you in playing neutral game is absolutely essential. If you can try to understand the core concepts he talks about and slowly apply them to your game, I promise youll start getting better.

Finally, I would go watch Plup videos against spacies as his neutral game is incredible. Look for westballz, mango, and porkchop matches. All very good examples.
 

$alsa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
46
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
NNID
itzall1848
It's kinda tricky against spacies, but basically you're not allowed to use anything other than needle or grab under 40% or so.
Because they can just crouch cancel > punish.
So basically I use boost grab to beat out dash dance and if I don't think they'll cover the high option then I'll auto cancel needle and try to get the grab with it.

Once they're above 40% or so you can start using F-tilt a bit more.
If you know what to do with crouch cancels you can actually just throw out f-smash or up tilt and just hold down during the animation, but that's kind of a silly strat and don't recommend it, I think m2k uses up tilt CC sometimes though.

Auto cancel fair is somewhat safe on shield, if you think they're gonna try and do something OOS then you can just jab and it beats out OOS options usually, but if you think they're gonna respect you then you can just keep going with AC fair.

Once they're around 60% dash attack gets safer and they won't be able to crouch cancel it at as well without needing to SDI down and tech, which a lot more foxes do then you might think.

At the time of them being at 80% or higher, it's generally a safe time to start throwing them off stage and just do simple edge guards like grab edge and bair.

But basically whenever you can you want to grab them and tech chase as long as you can, once they're at higher percents then it's safer to try and edge guard them.

TL;DR
Fox wants to CC you a lot and he'll get a lot of damage on you for it, so just play safe and needle/grab.
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
Fair, A Microcosm of Sheik's Gameplan in General:

So first I'll talk about how to use sheik's fair in neutral. Essentially, you have your super safe SH backwards-->AC fair. There are two main variables here that most sheik players already mess up, and even our best sheik players don't do perfectly. If you get this part wrong you can't do ANY of the rest of sheik's stuff out of it, which sucks. 1) Don't jump at a range where if he runs at you immediately you'll either: a) get hit before you can set up the spacing, or b) whiff the fair as he's running at you, and then be in lag as he reaches you. This is specifically in reference to fox, as I think it's the best example of using the fair incorrectly, although it can be generalized easily (don't jump at ranges where immediate approaches threaten you, unless you have a read/good reason).

So now we've established that, ideally, you've jumped at a good spacing+timing relative to your opponent. Now what? Well, you can vary your fair timing. There is a large window during which it will auto cancel, and of course you don't even have to go for the auto cancel. You can just continuously delay it until at the last second you fair+l-cancel it. There are also mixups with when you fastfall during your SH. I'm still talking defensively here, so bear with me; there's a lot more you can do, but you need to be able to do this first. So you're doing your safe SH back, at a good spacing + timing, then you combine your reactions and expectations to vary your fastfall+aerial timing as necessary. Awesome! ...now what?

You have this area around you that you control now. This is where the fun part happens! It all goes back to my favorite thing ever in the history of melee: stage control! (yay). So I didn't actually explain sheik's defensive game at all in this...since this was a post about what people don't do effectively...but you need to have a strong defensive game for the fun stuff and this fair zoning is part of it. So how does this relate to my favorite thing ever? Well, you have this zone around you that you control. Your opponent is respecting at minimum, that much space, and the defensive options you have out of it are awesome: throw out a move, CC, WD backwards, fox trot/dash backwards. Between the fair and the defensive option afterwards, you're pretty much sending out a huge "**** you" to approach options. Now here's the tricky part: Once you choose your defensive option, you need to use that as a reaction point for your decision making. Here's the example I have most often in my own gameplay: I fair, dash back....and see that they're not taking the space (because they're forced to respect an aggressive option after fair, like dash attack, or dash JC grab). So on reaction to this new spacing, I dash back to my original landing spot. Why is this so cool? You establish control of an area, and despite moving backwards, you get to TAKE THE SPACE BACK. So you essentially get a zoning option, that transitions into strong defense, that allows you multiple reaction points which are usable to take back the space you gave up to be safe in the first place. Following? I hope so. Maintaining stage control is key here, because now you need to *gain* space. Remember, after your (ideally well spaced/timed fair, you can throw out a move, SH again to zone, or dash attack etc. If they're respecting that range, that means its a ton of space that they're giving up to you! So now using options such as fair-->dash/WD forward actually becomes viable/strong. Not only is sheik effectively able to control the zone around her, and maintain stage control even when she gives up space... but she's also able to take stage away from her opponent by virtue of the strength of her options AFTER the fair.

So now I get to talk about the reason I wrote this all up in the first place, and how fair is a microcosm of sheik's gameplay in general. The strength of her defensive options in neutral allows her to establish control, and fluidly transition into more aggressive options. Fair-->dash forward is a perfect example of this, but dashing forward after a fair is a good way to die if you don't actually understand how to establish this level of control in neutral. Strong defense-->transition into strong offense is what it's all about. There are a million more things I could talk about, but this is the gist of it. Sheik doesn't really have any inherently strong aggressive options, but at a high level being aggressive will be as successful as your defense is strong. ***Learning how to do this with sheik is *really* about mastering defensive decision making and neutral in such a way that allows you to continuously react and easily change to the next set of options.***
This is an excerpt from a blog post made by Druggedfox that I found incredibly useful to developing my neutral neutral game with Sheik. You can find the blog here - http://portraitinsmash.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2015-02-26T05:39:00-08:00&max-results=7

TLDR: If you can dash in>short hop backwards>auto cancel fair, and do it safely, then there is this area in front of you when you land that you control. The opponent cannot be occupying it in the moment you land because you would have hit them if they were there, and you can act before them if they try to move in on the space after you land (remember, this is only if the initial fair was timed right and done from safe spacing
 
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