Semi-cloning or decloning Wolf?

[Nefnoj]

So before Project M rolled in, wolf was my second main! I still like him... But I think it would be cool if he was less of a clone. Any thoughts or ideas? I think I like Brawl's smash attacks better than Project M's, and I had a pretty neat idea (that might even be possible!) What if Wolf's down-special attack activated a cloaking-thingy, akin to the cloaking device from Melee? Any non-hostile thoughts?

 

[pkblaze]

He's already way less of a "clone" than Fox/Falco.

 

[Nefnoj]

He's already way less of a "clone" than Fox/Falco.

It seems moreso in Brawl than in Project M, I agree, I never enjoyed Fox and Falco as much as Wolf... BUT LET'S CLONIFY HIM EVEN LESS!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAA!!

 

[pkblaze]

Why, are clones inherently bad? He's got a cool moveset.

 

[InfinityCollision]

He's already a semiclone at most and change for the sake of change is quite simply a bad idea. Leave him be.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yes let's completely throw his design out for the sake of an arbitrary measure of "cloneliness" that only a misinformed and frankly annoying minority of the playerbase cares about.

Like seriously, remove Wolf's Shine? How are you possibly serious about this?

 

[Nefnoj]

Yes let's completely throw his design out for the sake of an arbitrary measure of "cloneliness" that only a misinformed and frankly annoying minority of the playerbase cares about.

Like seriously, remove Wolf's Shine? How are you possibly serious about this?

Now let's be civil now, eh? No need for sarcasm nor indirect insult! I've always been someone who gets hyped over semi-clones and semi-clone possibility, but a bit bothered by direct clones, that's just who I am and the way I play, if you're not fond of that, I'm sorry. I've noticed that there are those who have that same feeling with the direct clones, Dark Pit and Lucina, and the semiclones of Ganondorf and Doctor Mario. (Which reminds me, does anyone mind Toon Link or Young Link? I've never seen anyone complain about them, and personally enjoyed them, even though they don't seem too significantly different)

I was thinking of changing Wolf's Shine mostly because there are ten other characters that have a projectile reflecting move, and, since cloaking is in the game but only implemented in the special Brawl, it'd be a neat implementation to a character, if at all possible. And besides, Ganondorf's been more semicloned in the 3.5 update, and nobody's complaining about that, not as far as I know! I know a lot of Wolf's standard moves are different, and most of his special moves are given neat tweaks in Brawl, and I enjoyed a lot from him... But it's not a matter of what can be done differently... But what can be done BETTER!! We all need to strive for that, we all need to improve, but not as enemies, as brothers! Change, not simply for CHANGE... But to become something more! When we look inside of ourselves, we need to see what's right, and ensure that we all move forward as one.


I love you all, my brothers.
We can all move forward as one.

 

[BearFist]

But like, none of his moves are anywhere near the same as Falco or Fox in any way. Not a single one. The closest similarities are lasers and shine. Lasers you waveland out of, have completely different properties (like the travel speed), and shine hits you at this great 45 degree angle that allows Wolf to combo off of it reliably. I guess there's also his up-b, but it feels so different from the Fox and Falco in how it performs and what you do with it, and is in no way a central design of the character.

But let's look at the differences now.

Every other move. Every single one. Every aerial, every tilt, ever smash attack. They behave completely differently from Fox and Falco in every single way. Just straight up comparing every single one of these moves I think you would be hard pressed to find any similarities at all. I don't want to be super rude or anything, but I honestly think that if you seriously played the character in any respect you would already know this.

Which brings me to the biggest thing, in my opinion. Taking away Wolf's shine would fundamentally break the character. His aerials are amazing BECAUSE of his shine, and shine pressure is such a deep part of the character that taking it away removes who he is. This is true for the other spacies as well, but it doesn't matter, in my opinion. We have a devout fleet of Wolf mains already who love shine deeply for what it is. You may not understand it, but suggesting you change Wolf's shine is stepping on a lot of toes. We love shine. We love it. The thought of it going away and breaking the character so heavily offends me, and I'm sure it offends others too.

The idea is that you're coming in to this forum, where a lot of people have spent a lot of time learning how to play Wolf because they love him and his playstyle. You may not know it but you've kind of betrayed the fact that you don't know much about the character, and telling people who have put so much time and dedication in to this character that he should be changed because you personally don't like the fact that he's sort of kind of similar to these other characters (that he's not at all like) just comes off as rude.

I value that you want to contribute to the discussion, but trust me when I say that the vast majority of Wolf mains will never support removing shine. Ever.

Edit: Also your rhetoric at the end about moving together as brothers just comes off as cheeky and insincere. You don't really seem like you understand Wolf so it's hard to call you a brother, and taking away shine is definitely not moving forward.

 

[Nefnoj]

I accidentally stumbled into that overly competitive inconsiderate realm of Smashboards, haven't I?
Crap.

But I didn't know that his shine was good for his aerial game, which explains a lot, I'll have to give it a go, thanks!

 

[KhanYe]

Ahahah y'all are being a little too harsh on this guy for disagreeing with a design concept, which is a pretty subjective and innocent thing to discuss. Relax, stop acting like this guy saying Wolf could be more different is "rude" or offensive to you guys in any way. It's not like he's being aggressive or a jerk about it, he's just brought up an opinion he has.

That being said, I don't think Wolf's design could bear anymore tinkering without totally changing the way the character is played. Already, his combo game is so much different than the other two spacies that I'd be comfortable leaving him as is.

 

[BearFist]

Yeaaaaaah. Sorry if I came off a bit abrasive in my last post. It's just that changing Wolf's shine is a lot like taking away, I dunno, Captain Falcon's Knee, or Falco's dair. It's iconic and important to a lot of people. I originally wanted to write my post just explaining why I thought other people in the thread were coming across as rude, and ended up getting pretty upset about it myself.

I love my Wolf. The thought of his entire concept changing sounds awful. That's just my perspective.

 

[KhanYe]

And that's a totally fair opinion to have!

I love Wolf's design as well, much more intricate and risky than Fox's/Falco's design.

 

[Nefnoj]

Yeaaaaaah. Sorry if I came off a bit abrasive in my last post. It's just that changing Wolf's shine is a lot like taking away, I dunno, Captain Falcon's Knee, or Falco's dair. It's iconic and important to a lot of people. I originally wanted to write my post just explaining why I thought other people in the thread were coming across as rude, and ended up getting pretty upset about it myself.

I love my Wolf. The thought of his entire concept changing sounds awful. That's just my perspective.

Really? I never knew it was such a vital piece of Wolf... Guess I need to play as him more often! I used to all the time, but when I tried Project M's Ivysaur and Lucas, I forgot about my old friend... Is his shine any different from Fox's, other than it looking way cooler?

 

[BearFist]

Yeah, it's way different. Mostly because it knocks your opponent at a diagonal angle away from him. This lets him follow it up with one of his aerials depending on percent damage, weight, and fallspeed of his opponent. One of Wolf's bread and butters is shining a guy, following him in the air with a nair to keep them in hitstun and bring them back to the ground, and then shining again to continue the combo. It's insanely fun when you get the hang of it.

Hell, against other spacies, he can wavedash out of his shine and just shine again, bouncing them up over and over across the stage, if they don't DI away. It's kind of hilarious.

 

[G13_Flux]

I accidentally stumbled into that overly competitive inconsiderate realm of Smashboards, haven't I?
Crap.

But I didn't know that his shine was good for his aerial game, which explains a lot, I'll have to give it a go, thanks!

i mean, PM IS designed for competitive play. i guess a cloaking device would be cool looking, but how would it work, what purpose would it really serve, and is it beneficial to thought provoking, intelligent play? wolf is already one of the best designed characters IMO. hes got all the craziness of the space animals but without much of the overkill and buffs in other areas to give him a potential for deeper playstyle. the shine, unfortunately for you, is indeed quite central to his design now, and i can basically guarantee they're not going to change it. hes also definitely the least clone-like character out of all them, sharing only some similar special special moves, and NO similar animations. Ganon's declonization with his neutral b change was a design change, not one that was centered around him looking less like falcon. he needed some other kind of tool to compete with the rest of the cast; it was done out of necessity to increase the depth of the character. if his old warlock punch fit in somehow and ganon was already of a great design, they wouldnt have changed it.

nonetheless, you are going to have to understand that since PM is designed around competitive play, many suggestions that sound cool and may make sense to you at face value arent going to hold much weight unless you can give a more sound reasoning that will give us competitive folks reason to believe it fits in the game, and unfortunately, "being cool" isnt really the reasoning the PMDT is looking for. if you liked brawl wolf, really try and give PM wolf a shot, because you can do a lot more with him! his smash attacks are all the same besides up smash, and PM upsmash is 100% way better. not even to mention the positive changes to uair, dair, nair, side b, and blaster.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Like Flux said, a cloaking device wouldn't do much. Remember Meta-knights down-B? It looked cool, but it could be easily punished and was way to predictable. If you buffed it and reduced lag, then it would be OP and the PM dev team wouldn't put that in. Anyway, I think they did a fantastic job improving wolf's shine. It easily leads into combos, and I don't think they could do much more to improve it. I'm pretty happy the way his down-b is now.