Self Inflicted Injury

[XDaDePsak]

Marijunana:
Who are you to tell me not to smoke marijuana soley because it HARMS me.

Suicide:
I believe if someone wants to commit suicide, it should be perfectly legal unless they own an outstanding debt to an individual or society.
ie: terrorist being held for interrogation should not be allowed suicide.

Then there's that self-mutilation thing that's all the craze with teenage girls in attempt to gain attention. I think people like that just need mental counciling, because they don't REALLY want to kill themselves. Slitting wrists are a popular way of "attempted suicide". If you really want to kill yourself, you'd lift your head up high and blow your brains out. Slitting wrists shows imminent death, and is, I dare say, a great method to be noticed and not taken for granted.

Other than that, I'm tired of people, especially in the marijuanan discussion, using that arguement. "pursuit of happiness" right?

 

[xray95]

I disagree.

I think that a society with half it's members being suicidal and harming themselves is much less productive than a society full of members who don't harm themselves.

 

[XDaDePsak]

Remind me what is so productive about forcing people to do something you shouldn't have control over? There's no incentive in that <img border="0" alt="[Freak]" title="" src="graemlins/freak.gif" />

 

[Geo]

I'm all for it.
Suicide would be a way to cut down the population. If a member of society is not able to contribute to make this place better then they should be dispoded of. It's all up to the person who is going to commit siucide or do drugs. Its they're life let them live it or end it. To end this I think if you are going to kill yourself, do it the planet will benefit from it. You won't waste natural resources the population will go down improving poverty and basiclly all the problems that plague earth and humanity.

 

[xray95]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nephilim:
<strong>I'm all for it.
Suicide would be a way to cut down the population. If a member of society is not able to contribute to make this place better then they should be dispoded of. It's all up to the person who is going to commit siucide or do drugs. Its they're life let them live it or end it. To end this I think if you are going to kill yourself, do it the planet will benefit from it. You won't waste natural resources the population will go down improving poverty and basiclly all the problems that plague earth and humanity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and anarchy would be a good way to thin out the population. Only the strong survive, right?

 

[Battlecruiser Operational]

Along the same lines of thinking, let's just make it legal to blow the s*** out of one another. Since you don't seem to think that keeping people alive is a good thing, that seems perfectly logical.

You are also forgetting that a large majority of the people who are pondering suicide also feel stupid for feeling that way. It's a paradox, really. Also, many many many many of them later realize their mistakes and go on to become productive members of society. I've also heard that a large percentage of the suicide hotline people are once-suicidal people, but I don't have any basis in fact on that one. But then again, you would just say that's a bad job anyway wouldn't you?

It took me 10 seconds (thank god for cable modems), but i searched "attempted suicide invented" on google, and the first result was a site about famous painter Dante Gabriel Rossetti. If you want the link, just do the search. Another one, a little further down the list, is world renowned writer Edgar Allen Poe. Some others down the list include pianist Robert Schumann and mathematician Évariste Galois.

Now let's say that you don't like the first paragraph ( ^ ) about legalization of murder. You may think they are very different. My question is: What is the difference? (Defenition of murder: "To kill with premediated malice; to kill -- a human being -- willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully"). Suicide is just self-murder. So by saying suicide is okay, you are saying murder is okay. And if you agree with legalization of suicide but not murder, that's just hypocrisy.

Whew.

<small>[ March 31, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Battlecruiser Operational ]</small>

 

[Geo]

I was crushed in this debate.

I guess suicide is not the answer to the worlds problem but htere has to be a way to cut down populaion. Also to preserve natural resources. I guess in the long run destruction is inetival(sp?).(I sound like a hippie, but think about it wouldn't you like to keep humans on the face of the earth a little longer)

 

[xray95]

The problem of less resources will thin the population out. Sure, there will be widespread famine, rioting, etc, but when there's an economic decline, there's usually a decline in population (not due to premature death, but just people having less kids).

I think the over population thing might just work itself out. Of course, the quality of life for those left will really suck.

 

[XDaDePsak]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Battlecruiser Operational:
[QB My question is: What is the difference? (Defenition of murder: "To kill with premediated malice; to kill -- a human being -- willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully"). Suicide is just self-murder. So by saying suicide is okay, you are saying murder is okay. And if you agree with legalization of suicide but not murder, that's just hypocrisy.
Whew.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fool. Murder is without consent, generally speaking. Suicide is obviously willful in nature, except in special case scenarious which are not part of the debate.

 

[dejavu3k]

hurting urself is not wise...no it shouldn't be allowed...many once suicidal ppl became a beacon for technology today...

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

You guys are making some very erroneous logical conclusions here.

Murder and suicide are not the same. Murder is killing someone who doesn't want to die. Suicide is killing someone who does want to die. That's a HUGE difference. Consent is the issue at hand, people.

The correlation between anarchy and suicide as population control tactics is also wrong. Anarchy would result in non-consentual deaths, suicide would result only in consentual deaths by definition.

What good does it do to make suicide illegal? It just puts someone in prison, wasting public resources, instead of dead, not using resources. Once they get out of prison, they'll just try again. So why bother? Sure, sometimes society would be better off having someone alive than dead...but how do you enforce that? You can't.

-B

<small>[ March 31, 2002, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Bumble Bee Tuna ]</small>

 

[Battlecruiser Operational]

<a href="http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s197.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s197.htm</a>

Please note that this was the first result of a "Legal definition of Suicide" search on google. Just read the very first line. Also, I realize that this article uses the term "murder" very loosley(sp?), using it in both my context and the context to mean "killed by someone else," but my point lies in the first line. Suicide is not the same thing as murder, no. Suicide is a sub-division of murder. Just like a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a sqaure. Suicide is murder, but murder isn't necessarily suicide.

Also, I don't know if you guys were paying attention, but will/consent has nothing to do with murder. Read the definition. That is a dictionary definition of murder. What YOU think is murder doesn't have anything to do with what murder really is. Your consent thing is the basis of the Pro-Life arguement -- killing the fetus would be "murder." Killing someone is murder, be it yourself or someone else. (Of course, then there's the issue of whether a fetus is a life.....but, eh, there's already an abortion topic, and I'm pro-choice anyways.)

P.S. BBT -- suicidal people are not generally sent to prison, they are generally sent to "mental institutions."

<small>[ March 31, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Battlecruiser Operational ]</small>

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Dictionary definitions are by nature too terse. Yes, murder is the act of killing another human being. But the act of killing another human being is going against the will of that person, which is the reason why murder is immoral and thus a crime.

Murder is obviously acceptable in some cases. What about executions? Wars? Self-defense? Lethal force? All of these involve legal murders. Suicide is another one of those murder situations where the circumstances make it ok. By your logic, believing that war is acceptable but murder is not is hypocrisy.

Two can play at the dictionary game. A prison is defined as "any place of confinement". A mental institution is a place of confinement. Thus it's a prison. The point is still the same, the suicidal people waste public resources.

Please, let's try thinking here instead of hiding behind a dictionary and semantics. Whether suicide is called "self-murder" or not, the end result is still this: What gives the government the right to tell someone if they can or cannot kill themselves?

-B

 

[XDaDePsak]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Battlecruiser Operational:
<strong> Also, I don't know if you guys were paying attention, but will/consent has nothing to do with murder</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you heard of Euthinasia?? (sp?)
It is consentual, and not murder. It releases people from their pain, like suicide. You can call suicide murder all you want, it's a mere technichallity. the fact of the matter is this SUBDIVISION of murder is CONSENTUAL, and therefore, regardless of whatever the **** you wanna call it, it is humane.

 

[Battlecruiser Operational]

Okay, fine, I'll accept that medical institutions are basically prisons (that's why i have the quotations around them in the first place.)

Apparently you don't know what you're talking about X. Euthinasia(sp?) is illegal for the same reasons as murder. It's killing. Doctors who practice euthinasia are put in mental insti-- I mean, prison .

And BBT, don't put words in my mouth. I never said war is an acceptable form of foreign relations. War is stupid, and everyone knows it. Just people don't care, because it gets things done. Just like, if you don't like someone, killing them solves that problem. And executions? Fine, don't kill them then. You could leave them in prison for the rest of their lives, that's fine with me.

Self-defense is different, and should be left completely out of the topic. If no one attacked anyone in the first place, we wouldn't have need for it. Defending oneself is a natural instinct, a survival tactic. Suicide (I regret having to say this) is not a survival tactic. (Err, duh.)

EDIT: If I could double-post here, I would, because this is a totally seperate train of thought. I've decided that this arguement is pointless -- there are too many loopholes. Some examples:

1. Oregon allows "assisted suicide," but not euthanasia. The difference is in who preforms the last act. If you shoot someone, you'll get arrested anywhere. However, if you give someone your gun so they can shoot themselves, you'll get arrested everywhere except for Oregon. (This is only in the U.S.)

2. While people are not technically allowed to kill themselves, they are allowed to shorten their lifespan. I.E. refusing certain medical technology that will keep them alive. Insistence, against the patient’s wishes, that death be postponed by every means available is contrary to law and practice. It is also cruel and inhumane.

3. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are not about giving rights to the person who dies but, instead, they are about changing public policy so that doctors or others can directly and intentionally end or participate in ending another person’s life. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are not about the right to die. They are about the right to kill. (NOTE: The word "kill" means "to cause the death of.")

4. Euthanasia does not necessarily have to do with the patient's consent. If one accepts the notion that euthanasia or assisted suicide is a good medical treatment, then it would not only be inappropriate, but discriminatory, to deny this good treatment to a person solely because that person is too young or mentally incapacitated to request it.

And the list goes on. I'll check back into this arguement every once in a while from now on, but don't expect much.

<small>[ March 31, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Battlecruiser Operational ]</small>

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

I'm just refuting your argument, not putting words in your mouth. You say that because suicide is a kind of murder, it is wrong and should be illegal. I'm just pointing out the numerous other types of legal murder, which shoots your argument down. I'm not saying you support war, it's just one of many examples.

While you may wish self-defense was left out of the topic, since it refutes your entire argument, unfortunately that is not the case.

If someone attacks you, and you kill them in self-defense, it is murder. Just like suicide is murder. And since your core argument is that suicide is murder and thus wrong, this refutes your entire argument. It is far too easy.

Obviously, suicide is detrimental to society in many cases. But that doesn't mean it should be made illegal. Rethink your position here. We're not debating whether suicide is a good thing. Just whether it should be considered immoral or illegal.

-B

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Let people do want they want to do. It is not my place to decide whether someone dies or not (unless I'm called as a juror).

 

[XDaDePsak]

This chick that hangs out at my table during lunch at school is one of those people who likes to go through extreme measures so she can be "different" than other people. I think it's lame how she is into this whole vampire cult thing. Her and this gay dude that comes around occasionally like to talk about the tastiest blood "type o" or something like that. They know a tattoo parlor by day that is a vampire hangout by night. I think it's stupid how people get off on drinking other peoples blood, but hey, if they wanna indirectly kill themselves, let 'em do it. One less psychotic, right? Besides, God wants to punish them anyways, them heathens.

 

[Kokichi]

The problem with suicide is that often times if peole were going to comit suicide they do something that they had never done in their lives before: Blowing up buildings with airplanes, ****** someone, totally overdosing, spending all of their money at once, driving wildly, etc. They don't care what they do to anyone anymore. They are puting the lives of others in jeopardy. One thing I would like to know though is why even bother saying if suicide is legal or not? It's not like you are going to arrest them if they kill themselves. What's the use of having a corpse locked up away in a cell.

 

[Kirbitsu]

X, finally we agree. If people want to kill themselves, let them go ahead. That is their choice. God will deal with them, so we should let them go.

 

[deltaorange_samus]

Im with x. We should be allowed to kill ourselves because nobody ever asked us if we wanted to be born in the first place. <img border="0" alt="[Laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh.gif" /> And even though it's illigal, wow, it's not like they are going to imprison your soul, you will be free. I guess. Just slide with it. Slide.

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: deltaorange_samus ]</small>

 

[XDaDePsak]

you guys are still ignoring the main part of the arguement. It's not just suicide, it's ANY self inflicted injury. Remember the first post about marijuana in this topic?

 

[Battlecruiser Operational]

Suicide isn't illegal, and neither is attempted suicide. But if you do attempt and you fail, they will send to you to a mental institution (which, as we decided earlier, is basically a prison).

That's not the issue. The issue is whether it should be "okay" for people to hurt/kill themselves. So don't get off topic people, this really isn't about the law (or shouldn't be), I think it's supposed to be about morals and people not trying to stop you.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Cos.]

I doubt suicide is useful for our sociaty. First we must see that most governments are built on religions, that pusuade not to commit suicide, and these thoughts are burned into most peoples minds, there for suicide doesn't fit into our system. Most people play a certain role in our sociaty and can't so easily be spared, other people might depend on them, and working against a sociaty isn't in the mind of that sociaty. It's very seldom that a person goes through a whole live with permanent suicidal thoughts, most people have higher moments worth living for(hopefully).
And it's against nature's: we must survive.
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A good way of preventing crimes as such would be torchering the crimals, so that they suffer, making punishment less enjoyable.