Secondary/General Tips to deal with shorties?

[Equin0x]

Zero-Suit Samus main and Fox secondary, here. I'm pretty comfortable with my skill at my current characters (that's not to say I can't improve, far from it), but I still struggle quite a lot with some characters, specifically the shortest of the cast.

That includes Meta Knight, Pikachu, and ness (although he isn't that short) as the biggest issues, but also Kirby, Jigglypuff, and G&W to a lesser extent.

I believe some of this issue could stem from ZSS' stronger ground moves whiffing these shorter characters and Fox struggling to deal with their large (dijointed, especially) hitboxes and depending on aerials which also whiff.

So, I ask you, the ZSS community, for some suggestions on secondaries (I'm open to replacing Fox atm) and/or tips with dealing with these menaces with the characters I currently have. I'd like any secondary suggestions to be able to deal with their disjoints and be less than easy to gimp.

Thank you very much in advance!

 

[DeLux]

Use Sheik. Thank me later.

 

[David Viran]

Zss's best moves for neutral on the ground are ftilt and dsmash. They both hit crouching characters.

@ DeLux Believe.

 

[Equin0x]

Zss's best moves for neutral on the ground are ftilt and dsmash. They both hit crouching characters.

Ftilt whiffs on standing Kirby unless you angle it down, and then it doesn't have nearly as much range and, therefore, value in neutral. I haven't done comprehensive research on this, but I believe this to be true with most landing animations for short characters and their crouches at the very least. This is also true with her first two jabs, her fsmash, her utilt, and her side b. This problem is exactly the one I wish to avoid.

Use Sheik. Thank me later.

Could you elaborate on why she'd be a good pick? She, like Fox, depends on fast, short-range aerials, so I'm concerned that she'd have the same struggle as Fox.

 

[David Viran]

Ftilt whiffs on standing Kirby unless you angle it down, and then it doesn't have nearly as much range and, therefore, value in neutral. I haven't done comprehensive research on this, but I believe this to be true with most landing animations for short characters and their crouches at the very least. This is also true with her first two jabs, her fsmash, her utilt, and her side b. This problem is exactly the one I wish to avoid.


Could you elaborate on why she'd be a good pick? She, like Fox, depends on fast, short-range aerials, so I'm concerned that she'd have the same struggle as Fox.

It still has alot of range. Outranges most things crouching characters have anyway.

 

[Equin0x]

Is that the only advice I can be given on this topic? Is that what I should be using out of shield on these characters-- just down-angled f-tilts?

 

[David Viran]

No up b always hits opponents regardless of size. Usmash oos is good too.

 

[Equin0x]

Alright, thanks.

Input form any other good ZSS players is also appreciated, even if it's just confirming what Viran said. (Not that I doubt him, I just appreciate multiple opinions.)

 

[NeoSeth]

Pretty much everything he said is right. Grab can also still grab crouching short characters if you get them with the tip, and I'm pretty sure meticulously well-timed and spaced Nairs can connect. That might honestly be more trouble than it's worth, however.

 

[David Viran]

It kind of depends on the character crouching when hitting them with aerials. Like Pikachu for instance is actually kind of easy to hit with nair when crouching and he can be hit by Bair. But like jigglypuff size Bair will miss and nair is a lot harder to time. If I were those light characters I wouldn't be trying to duck nair too often because there's a good chance it might frame cancel and they don't want to be hit by a frame canceled nair.

 

[Wyles]

You need to bait a lot more than usual to force them to over commit then you can get the grab. You can kill shorties much faster than they can kill you.

You could also jump a lot to force them to get into the air as well.

SH Nairs is great as well as Down angled Ftilts

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Sometime next week I should finish characterizing who FF nair works on and who it whiffs on.

 

[David Viran]

Sometime next week I should finish characterizing who FF nair works on and who it whiffs on.

It can actually hit any character but some are harder than others.

 

[2LettersSho]

As mentioned, DSmash is good sometimes. So is Up B depending.
Additionally, end of Side B will hit at most heights (just not the middle).
When a small character is near me, I usually flip/run/roll away or dodge and try a read; just try to keep spacing them.
Depending on the match up and stage, you could try platform camping.

 

[Equin0x]

It can actually hit any character but some are harder than others.

At what point does it become more trouble than it's worth, though? A crouching Kirby, for example, could be too difficult to hit for it to be a feasible option. No?

Nobody has any secondaries just to deal with short characters, then? Guess I just need to git gud.

 

[David Viran]

At what point does it become more trouble than it's worth, though? A crouching Kirby, for example, could be too difficult to hit for it to be a feasible option. No?

Nobody has any secondaries just to deal with short characters, then? Guess I just need to git gud.

If I were the short character I wouldn't want to test how good the zss player is at timing nair. The chance of the zss player frame canceling it is pretty high too and believe me frame canceled nair combos real hard. You don't actually have to be consistent with it.