Samus' Neutral Game

[zblaqk]

Hey guys, after doing some forum lurking it seems that Dungeon Master feels that Samus' neutral game is one of the worst in the game and also one of her biggest flaws. I'm making this thread so that we can highlight the issues she has, how to address and mitigate them the best we can and discuss possible techniques and strategies both in general and specific matchups. I think that having this organized in a thread makes it much more effective when it comes to learning options in neutral as opposed to having them simply mentioned in other threads through out the forums, making it a one stop for one of her biggest issues. This keeps things concise and focused specifically on this aspect of her game.

 

[zblaqk]

**Set Aside**

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yeah I'm loath to delve into another problems discussion after producing the community video. The problems are very clear, well documented now, we should really work with what we've got.
I would personally like to keep matchup discussion in the matchup thread, that way good tidbits don't get scattered.

As designed today Samus dictates the flow of the fight in perhaps a handful of matchups where the basic missile is useful: Gannon, D3, shield stance shulk, Robin/DK (debatable).
Essentially every other projectile based traditional zoner have faster projectiles with better/neutralizing properties. You cannot compete with link and company spitting out 3 projectiles for your 2 missiles,it's just NOT possible.
The properties chosen for the missiles, speed, startup, endlag, homing angle are specifically engineered so that their utility is almost nil.
Even characters which are not zoners, take Mario, Pikachu, can launch projectiles at a full hop and cover many many angles of approach/retreat. Forget wavebouncing fancy movement options, you're going to eat a pack of damage if you throw out a missile from full hop, you won't hit your opponent and because of the properties you'll be lucky to hit the STAGE.
You're necessarily forced into a reactive pattern to your opponent's patterns. We need to full hop z-air vs. say ROB or you're going to die horribly to his good zoning game.

You're essentially forced to close but not get too close because too close is actually detrimental. By design however, you can't cope with large lingering hitboxes, so characters like yoshi, mario, fox can just spit out moves and because of extended hurtboxes you simply can't spit out moves to try and trade or counter. So even at mid-range, you cannot dictate the flow of the battle.
Up close, until jab combo comes online at higher percents, you're not dictating anything to anyone.

There are no traps, there is no frame advantage, the priority is abysmal, etc... etc... it sums up to dead awful neutral. Do you really want to go over everything in further gory detail?

 

[zblaqk]

There are no traps, there is no frame advantage, the priority is abysmal, etc... etc... it sums up to dead awful neutral. Do you really want to go over everything in further gory detail?

And this is exactly what we need! We need to work with what we have and come together to improve what is there the best we can

 

[❤ Nikodemus05]

Yeah I'm loath to delve into another problems discussion after producing the community video. The problems are very clear, well documented now, we should really work with what we've got.
I would personally like to keep matchup discussion in the matchup thread, that way good tidbits don't get scattered.

As designed today Samus dictates the flow of the fight in perhaps a handful of matchups where the basic missile is useful: Gannon, D3, shield stance shulk, Robin/DK (debatable).
Essentially every other projectile based traditional zoner have faster projectiles with better/neutralizing properties. You cannot compete with link and company spitting out 3 projectiles for your 2 missiles,it's just NOT possible.
The properties chosen for the missiles, speed, startup, endlag, homing angle are specifically engineered so that their utility is almost nil.
Even characters which are not zoners, take Mario, Pikachu, can launch projectiles at a full hop and cover many many angles of approach/retreat. Forget wavebouncing fancy movement options, you're going to eat a pack of damage.
You're necessarily forced into a reactive pattern to your opponent's patterns. We need to full hop z-air vs. say ROB or you're going to die horribly to his good zoning game.

You're essentially forced to close but not get too close because too close is actually detrimental. By design however, you can't cope with large lingering hitboxes, so characters like yoshi, mario, fox can just spit out moves and because of extended hurtboxes you simply can't spit out moves to try and trade or counter. So even at mid-range, you cannot dictate the flow of the battle.
Up close, until jab combo comes online at higher percents, you're not dictating anything to anyone.

There are no traps, there is no frame advantage, the priority is abysmal, etc... etc... it sums up to dead awful neutral. Do you really want to go over everything in further gory detail?

I tend to forget I play such a literally **** character sometimes. Things like this, remind me.

 

[MOI-ARI]

I have no idea how i win with this character sometimes.

 

[zblaqk]

As much as I understand the frustration playing her sometimes, I am asking the community whom play her despite her flaws to come together in the best way we can. I dislike this dumping all over her despite the fact that she has some great qualities as well!

I guess I'll get the ball rolling with discussing her Z-air in more detail, as it is one of her more important options within the neutral!

 

[Boney]

Honestly, one of the best options Samus has in the neutral is keeping a charge shot good and ready. It'll keep opponents shielding, jumping and double jumping a lot more in order to get around it. The psychological factor is something that needs to be used in our favor. You can punish full hop fireballs and thundejolts with it, as well as condition opponents and make use of Samus' crappy grab this way. You can force situations with it in mind, it's not the best but it's the best we got.

Characters like WFT can do this better however and other characters like Shiek will just laugh in out faces

 

[MOM Samus]

What neutral game?

 

[Afro Smash]

Samus Neutral consists of 4 moves pretty much, Zair/Dash Attack/Dash Grab/Charge Shot.

Poke with Zair until you land a hit and string it in to Dash Attack or Grab, or condition your opponent then surprise them with either. Then keep the CS to scare your opponent in to shielding pre emptively and jumping and punish anything unsafe. That's pretty much it, although Missiles also play a part in some MUs.

 

[Depth_]

You're forgetting f-tilt, d-tilt, u-tilt, and many more things. Our neutral is good. We have a 6 frame attack that's probably one of the most disjointed normals in the game in d-tilt. It's literally disgusting. We can punish attacks with d-tilt oos that would otherwise push others too far or outrange their choice of punish tools in general. While d-tilt no longer kills and doesn't combo, it does 12% fresh and props opponents up in the air for follow-ups.

F-tilt is really good at low to intermediate percents, although I miss it's previous form. It stuffs grounded approaches quite well and establishes our place of dominance matchups, mid-range. It also forces tech chases, which could net an extra 20% or so. F-tilt is probably where most of our conditioning begins. U-tilt denies a lot of aerial approaches. I've destroyed the f-air approach attempts of Diddy mains with perfect pivot back u-tilt. It even kills at high percents.

Yes, our aerials and smashes are kind of lacking in neutral. F-air is pretty much strictly only used for follow-ups or combos now that it no longer auto cancels. N-air has tech chase potential, but the hitboxes are awkward and the range of percentages in which we get follow-ups off of it isn't that great. D-air is a move we would only use after we've broken neutral. B-air only has the luxury of killing very early and U-air is great for baiting approaches with SHAD (short hop air dodge). F-smash with it's big sour spot, blind spot, and poor range has it's problems, but it's tied with several characters as being the fastest f-smash in the game, has great kill power if tippered, does good shield damage and pushback. D-smash, although incredibly weak, punishes rolls quite will in the sense that it forces tech chases at a really wide range of percents. Finally, U-smash, while highly inconsistent, will kill at decent percents. Look for attacks that you can up-smash our of shield. There are also characters that are susceptible to jump canceled up-smash via spot dodge reads, roll reads, and idle animation.

Samus' shield game or defensive is OK at best. We can't shield grab many attacks, but Screw Attack OOS, D-tilt OOS, and Jab OOS can work wonders. The character has a great SHAD for baiting approaches, breaking neutral, and killing. Missiles apply good shield damage and pressure and force defensive or offensive options which could net us hard punishes with our combos or shield breaks. Bombs do the same.

Yes, z-air, dash, attack, dash grab, and CS are good options in neutral because they either kill, set up for ridiculous combos, or have incredibly range, but don't forget our other tools. Yes, Samus is an awkward character, but that doesn't mean her neutral is bad. We just don't know how to manage her tools effectively. We are still learning this character.

Remember what the neutral is. It's a point in the game in which both players have even stage control and are fighting for dominance via combos, edge guards, or kills. Most of our neutral consist of combo starters that have long range and attacks that do incredibly shield damage or base damage. We are a combo based character that just so happens to have a charge shot. It's time we take advantage of all of our tools and stop tunneling our vision on dash attack, grabs, and z-air. Think open-mindedly.

 

[JAZZ_]

Am I the only one who uses bomb traps excessively in my game play? Lately Ive been really pushing my use of bombs and finding ways to rack up gobs of damage with bombs and tilts hitting at the same time. I had a good match with a Very good player in FG who used Zamus. I'll upload it here when I get off work. I used retreating bombs so well Zamus had a very difficult time dealing with them.
I think using bombs throws people off and their delayed explosion catches people off guard. specifically dropping one right under you and shielding to bait a grab, opponent grabs and gets hit by the bomb allowing for a quick and disorienting punish. (mostly found useful in Captian Falcon MU's)

but im no expert and I only have a 56% overall win rate in 1v1 FG with Samus exclusively so take what I say with a grain of salt in that I'm total noobsville here

 

[MOM Samus]

I use bombs a lot, and I have a 93% win rate with over 7,000 matches.

 

[JAZZ_]

I use bombs a lot, and I have a 93% win rate with over 7,000 matches.

I can only dream of having that much success. Im just happy not to have a losing track record, even if its barely above half. And I probably use way too many bombs.

Here I'm totally outmatched. And yea Im rolling excessively but my internet hasnt been great so SHAD'ing ends up being a roll anyway. I probably throw out dumb attacks like random missiles but those are intended mobile bombs.
needless to say bombs really helped me rack damage on this aggressive pikachu. If I was better I'd probably not have too much trouble here but to be honest this match terrified me, I knew I couldnt compete with a Pika and the way the guy played felt very precise. If he hadnt killed himself I wouldve lost given that i really couldnt deal with this very well.

 

[Afro Smash]

If we're within range to be using D Tilt we're not really in neutral anymore, the opoonent has likely broken neutral by that point? unless my understanding of what the neutral is lacking

 

[Depth_]

For the opponent to have broken neutral, we would have to lose stage control, be in hitstun, in the air, off-stage, or have our backs to the ledge.

 

[Afro Smash]

Well having less stage control or backs to the ledge is pretty likely if we're in cqb

 

[Depth_]

What's cqb?

 

[zblaqk]

What's cqb?

close quarters battle I think

 

[Xygonn]

Throw that old neutral out the window boys, RAR shff bair is the new neutral.

 

[Depth_]

Our new neutral on fleek with the increased shield of z-air sour spots and tilts now? OR NAH

 

[DungeonMaster]

I think we can actually use our reach better. The n-air change is pretty big, it's "almost" safe on shield out of SH-AD. The hitbox comes out right away, those used-to-be-whiffy arcs are now real hitboxes. We can just generally mixup n-air, b-air, d-air, up-tilt even f-tilt and z-air better now. Pretty significant global change.
The fact that we can SH-AD n-air, b-air and up-air means we sort of have a game plan now that doesn't rely on razor thin pixel edge of applicable range. I want to play a bunch before saying we have a real "style" that other players have to worry about but let's keep the hope and hype up.

 

[Hark17ball]

I think we can actually use our reach better. The n-air change is pretty big, it's "almost" safe on shield out of SH-AD. The hitbox comes out right away, those used-to-be-whiffy arcs are now real hitboxes. We can just generally mixup n-air, b-air, d-air, up-tilt even f-tilt and z-air better now. Pretty significant global change.
The fact that we can SH-AD n-air, b-air and up-air means we sort of have a game plan now that doesn't rely on razor thin pixel edge of applicable range. I want to play a bunch before saying we have a real "style" that other players have to worry about but let's keep the hope and hype up.

This i feel after conditioning people to suspect one of the airs ill just empty hop to a grab or tilt.....new tactics being added even if a few is having me incredibly motivated.

 

[Xygonn]

Shield damage is the biggest story here guys.

DK -> shield breaker nerf
Marth -> shield breaker nerf
Samus -> No shield damage reduction on bombs, charge shot, missile, or screw attack

This is an indirect buff to our shield damage that other shield damaging characters DID NOT GET.

 

[Tonetta]

I always thought shield pressure into combo options (through shield poke) was our neutral game but the latest patch really strengthened that type of play style for samus.

 

[zblaqk]

I always thought shield pressure into combo options (through shield poke) was our neutral game but the latest patch really strengthened that type of play style for samus.

I definitely agree. I'm finding even super missile to charge shot is getting me shield breaks

 

[Vyrnx]

So with SH FF Bair
I think it might be really easy to perfect shield this... I can see good players learning this pretty fast, because the timing is so predictable with the run in, jump, fall, (put up shield). Is there any way to make the timing of the bair less predictable?

 

[Afro Smash]

So with SH FF Bair
I think it might be really easy to perfect shield this... I can see good players learning this pretty fast, because the timing is so predictable with the run in, jump, fall, (put up shield). Is there any way to make the timing of the bair less predictable?

If they're throwing up shield predicting it thats the perfect time to empty land and grab them or pivot away and pressure with your spacing tools

 

[Xygonn]

So with SH FF Bair
I think it might be really easy to perfect shield this... I can see good players learning this pretty fast, because the timing is so predictable with the run in, jump, fall, (put up shield). Is there any way to make the timing of the bair less predictable?

I honestly don't think they can react to the fast fall just to the reversed short hop.

You could throw out an RCS instead of a bair. You could bair early, but that would put you at -19 on shield hit, though you'll still be moving in the air. This gives you the option to jump away, upb, or uair before landing though. You could RAR dair which on autocancel would put you at between -11 and -9 on the strong or late hit depending on the frame you hit on. You could RAR bair which puts you at between -15 and -9 on the back hit. Finally, if you throw the dair late, you'll autocancel and they will be locked into shield putting you at -4 OoS and at an advatage on shield drop.

 

[krazyzyko]

At far range I throw baby shots. At mid range I poke with zair. At closer range I use first hit of nair as if it was a short ranged zair.

To bait approaches I SH bomb > fade back > grab or tilt, PP > CS cancel, AC dair and PP > F smash.

To approach I DA, hump > tilt, RAR bair, Zair > grab, full hop fair > bomb.

I only use missiles if I'm recovering high and have some time to kill.

 

[TurboLink]

F-tilt is really good at low to intermediate percents, although I miss it's previous form. It stuffs grounded approaches quite well and establishes our place of dominance matchups, mid-range. It also forces tech chases, which could net an extra 20% or so. F-tilt is probably where most of our conditioning begins. U-tilt denies a lot of aerial approaches. I've destroyed the f-air approach attempts of Diddy mains with perfect pivot back u-tilt. It even kills at high percents.

How are you able to tell which moves force tech chases? It would be nice for me to be prepared in advance when I play with other characters.

 

[Depth_]

How are you able to tell which moves force tech chases? It would be nice for me to be prepared in advance when I play with other characters.

Most characters have attacks that send the opponent at very low angles. They force tech chases on characters with various fall speeds. These are easy to test. Just go in the lab and try to jump after being hit by these attacks. If you cannot, you've been put into a forced tech situation. Fox and Mario's n-air do this.

 

[Vyrnx]

How are you able to tell which moves force tech chases? It would be nice for me to be prepared in advance when I play with other characters.

I've been wanting to make a table with percents lately, but not sure how to go about testing.
Dsmash, fsmash and nair at low percents
Sweetspot ftilt , still nair, (and sourspot bair?) at mid percents
Jab 1-->jab 2 (or just jab 2) at 80%ish+ (jab combos at these percents usually)
Zair, sourspot ftilt at 100-120ish
Jab 1 at 150+.

The most important ones to use are nair, ftilts (sweet and sour), jab combo, and definitely zair. If for some reason they live higher then jab 1. These are rough percents but if I messed up someone will correct me

Edit: nvm you weren't talking about Samus