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RSG Discussion 1. More than Melee: Making Use of Brawl AT in Your Game. (Feb. 7th)

NIFOFD

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Our first discussion will be taking place on Feb. 7th, 10PM EST / 7PM PST. Because Roy holds the rare distinction of being the only PM character (other than M2) to appear in PM but not Brawl, most people fail to take advantage of the new techniques that first appeared in Brawl (and that can be used in PM). In order to help those who are less familiar with Brawl mechanics, the topic of discussion will be Brawl Advanced Techniques. Come ready to discuss DACUS, b-reversing, wavebouncing, footstooling, glide tossing, etc. (specifically how Roy can take advantage of them).

This post will be updated with a summary of the discussion to be used as reference.

Message @ Oddyesy Oddyesy if you wish to be added to the Roy Skype Group. A poll will likely be added at a later date for the topic of the Feb. 21st discussion. Please comment with ideas for future discussions.
 

Oddyesy

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I'm looking forward to it, because I think that some Brawl techs are criminally underused, like footstooling.
 

Smolder

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I'm looking forward to it, because I think that some Brawl techs are criminally underused, like footstooling.
Or Roy's DACUS and his backwards GT. Those are actually amazing tools.
 

Taytertot

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For those of us who may not be able to be apart of the skype group is there any way that the discussion could be posted in some way (even if its a shortened version) so that we can all read up/watch a video (if its recorded) to increase our roy game?
 

Oddyesy

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For those of us who may not be able to be apart of the skype group is there any way that the discussion could be posted in some way (even if its a shortened version) so that we can all read up/watch a video (if its recorded) to increase our roy game?
I believe it will be compiled and posted.
 

NIFOFD

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I believe it will be compiled and posted.
I'll edit the post to include all the information we discuss. Alternatively, if there is someway I can provide a transcription I might do that.
 

Sethlon

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Could always just c/p the whole convo and it put under a collapse tag here, or in a pastebin or something.
 

NIFOFD

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Could always just c/p the whole convo and it put under a collapse tag here, or in a pastebin or something.
Think I'll probably do that, not sure why I didn't think of that...
 

Smolder

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Speaking of Brawl AT . . . Did you guys see Sethlon using that wavebounce side-B into either an aerial or waveland mixup at the most recent IaB? Looks like I have some new tech to work on, because it looks like you can get some ugly mixups off of it.
 

Sethlon

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^^^ Something I've been working on specifically vs the fat characters. Hoping it'll be useful in the long run against D3.
 

Azureflames

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ooooooOOOoooo side-b wavebounce shenanigans sound sexy. Gonna have to check that out in the VODs
 
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Smolder

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I'll be straight with you Sethlon. I'm stealing that tech, and I'm going to use it. Alot. Even for funsies, because a perfect waveland out of that into grab is some grade-A mind gamery.
 

Smolder

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Note: I'd like to apologize for any bad grammar or spelling errors. I am way too tired to do any editing right now. =P

So, I labbed this out with a few buddies, and after quite a few matches, I found this piece of tech to have some great strengths, but one weakness. (Which can be fixed with proper spacing and smart usage of the tool) While playing some friendlies with my buddies, it seems that this particular piece of tech can be used as an effective aerial mixup. I would use such things as cross up nairs and tippered fairs to condition my friends to think that I was preferring aerial approaches. After conditioning them, I would then do a short hop, they would shield, and then I would wavebounce side-B and waveland in for a grab. When mixing in these wavebounce side-B's with traditional aerial pressure, my friends couldn't really figure out what to do besides spot dodge or roll backwards. Either way, this move has proven to be very effective for fake pressure, because they couldn't really tell what I wanted to do out of my short hops.

Another application for this is completely non-committal platform pressure. However, seeing as we play Roy, most of our platform pressure (besides the Sethlon) should be non-committal in the first place. This means that, right now, I don't know how this move can be used for platform pressure, besides maybe doing it directly under them and wavelanding into maybe an uair string or something.

A third use for this piece of tech could be to out space approaches. One of my friends plays Lucario, and let me tell you, he REALLY enjoys dash attack because if it lands on shields, he can convert it into decent shield pressure. Seeing as he loves dash attack, I found that reading his approaches and doing a wavebounce side-B allowed me to outspace him just enough to waveland dtilt, regular land fsmash, waveland grab, or many other punishes. This may prove effective against rushdown Foxes if my theory is correct.

The fourth, and final use is very niche and only really effective if you love platforms as much as I do. Seeing as I play around on platforms a lot with platform drop fairs and uairs, I can mix up my staple platform approaches with a run off --> instant wavebounce side-B to land back on the platform. This may not seem like much, but let's expand upon this. Now that I know I can wavebounce off of approaches, I can keep doing my regular approaches, and once the person gets a solid read on those approaches, I can add a delayed wavebounce approach into waveland grab or waveland backwards to reset to neutral. Either way, I'm not really in any trouble, because most people punish my regular platform approaches by shield grabbing me. Now that I know my opposition will be looking for that shield grab, I can force a shield with the platform drop, and then wavebounce to waveland grab on their shield.

The one weakness for this tech, though, is that it needs a certain amount of space to work. When someone is in your face 100% of the time, you probably won't find much time to do a short hop to wavebounce side-B. This means that you may have to throw this piece of tech out the window against characters like Wolf (Who can created a wall of projectiles and approach ruthlessly) and Falco. (Lasers. need I say more?) This could also just be a fake weakness, because I've only been messing around with this tech for one day, meaning that I probably don't know how to effectively use it under pressure.

On a side note: @ Sethlon Sethlon What do you think of frame-perfect side-B OoS? I found that if I side be on the first airborne frame, I could stay grounded while side-B'ing. Do you think this could be effective against anyone who crosses up your shield with a higher lag aerial? From what I read on your guide; side-B comes out on the same frame as bair.
 
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Sethlon

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I actually didn't even think of using it originally for mix-ups off of the waveland afterward...it originally popped in my head as an idea while sitting down and thinking "What does Roy potentially have in his kit to hit a D3's shield and not get shield grabbed", hah. I guess you could get pretty tricky with it against any character that is committed to shielding, though.

I could actually see it being useful against Falco. Roy is a character that can powershield falco lasers pretty easily, since Roy can duck under them and then shield whenever the laser is above his head...Falco can make it harder to PS by shooting the lasers really low, but then Roy could probably weave up above the lasers with wavebounce sideB. Actually, you could probably use it in some situations vs high SHL by full jumping before the wavebounce sideB.

@ The frame perfect sideB OoS; I actually didn't know you could do that lol. I know that if you manage to trick the game into landing without a "floaty" charge of sideB it becomes a fairly potent OoS option (since it pulls you down to the ground instantly from a jump OoS), but thats basically a non-option since getting into that situation is difficult and landing from the air without an aerial resets the sideB float, including stuff like wavedashing. SideB OoS vs crossups would probably be a pretty potent option, assuming you can consistently land that 1 frame window.
 

Azureflames

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Note: I'd like to apologize for any bad grammar or spelling errors. I am way too tired to do any editing right now. =P

So, I labbed this out with a few buddies, and after quite a few matches, I found this piece of tech to have some great strengths, but one weakness. (Which can be fixed with proper spacing and smart usage of the tool) While playing some friendlies with my buddies, it seems that this particular piece of tech can be used as an effective aerial mixup. I would use such things as cross up nairs and tippered fairs to condition my friends to think that I was preferring aerial approaches. After conditioning them, I would then do a short hop, they would shield, and then I would wavebounce side-B and waveland in for a grab. When mixing in these wavebounce side-B's with traditional aerial pressure, my friends couldn't really figure out what to do besides spot dodge or roll backwards. Either way, this move has proven to be very effective for fake pressure, because they couldn't really tell what I wanted to do out of my short hops.

Another application for this is completely non-committal platform pressure. However, seeing as we play Roy, most of our platform pressure (besides the Sethlon) should be non-committal in the first place. This means that, right now, I don't know how this move can be used for platform pressure, besides maybe doing it directly under them and wavelanding into maybe an uair string or something.

A third use for this piece of tech could be to out space approaches. One of my friends plays Lucario, and let me tell you, he REALLY enjoys dash attack because if it lands on shields, he can convert it into decent shield pressure. Seeing as he loves dash attack, I found that reading his approaches and doing a wavebounce side-B allowed me to outspace him just enough to waveland dtilt, regular land fsmash, waveland grab, or many other punishes. This may prove effective against rushdown Foxes if my theory is correct.

The fourth, and final use is very niche and only really effective if you love platforms as much as I do. Seeing as I play around on platforms a lot with platform drop fairs and uairs, I can mix up my staple platform approaches with a run off --> instant wavebounce side-B to land back on the platform. This may not seem like much, but let's expand upon this. Now that I know I can wavebounce off of approaches, I can keep doing my regular approaches, and once the person gets a solid read on those approaches, I can add a delayed wavebounce approach into waveland grab or waveland backwards to reset to neutral. Either way, I'm not really in any trouble, because most people punish my regular platform approaches by shield grabbing me. Now that I know my opposition will be looking for that shield grab, I can force a shield with the platform drop, and then wavebounce to waveland grab on their shield.

The one weakness for this tech, though, is that it needs a certain amount of space to work. When someone is in your face 100% of the time, you probably won't find much time to do a short hop to wavebounce side-B. This means that you may have to throw this piece of tech out the window against characters like Wolf (Who can created a wall of projectiles and approach ruthlessly) and Falco. (Lasers. need I say more?) This could also just be a fake weakness, because I've only been messing around with this tech for one day, meaning that I probably don't know how to effectively use it under pressure.

On a side note: @ Sethlon Sethlon What do you think of frame-perfect side-B OoS? I found that if I side be on the first airborne frame, I could stay grounded while side-B'ing. Do you think this could be effective against anyone who crosses up your shield with a higher lag aerial? From what I read on your guide; side-B comes out on the same frame as bair.
All of those applications sound really cool. I really want to start practicing and incorporating stuff like this into my game. For point two I know I've gotten similar side-bs but i've been doing it without the wavebounce. I've had occasions where ill SH (reverse) side b and it'll almost scoop them up off the platform into the third or final hit of DED. It only really works though if they dont expect it and you clip them/get shield stab. The way im describing will still keep you under the platform outside of the third or fourth hit though. You can time it though so that the side b will boost you up and land on the platform if you do it sooner in the shorthop. I imagine you could try doing something like that with the timing to not even have to do "the sethlon" and spend time getting a waveland. Instead of getting a waveland on platform into a grab you could maybe tech chase with a sideb combo on the platform, no idea how reliable that would be really.

Those points look incredibly practical uses that could work for mix ups though.
 
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NIFOFD

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Oh come on guys, save some for the discussion!

That being said, I'm glad that there's so much depth to the brawl tech that looks like it can be applied in the future. I really only use wavebouncing/breversing and other brawl tech for my Ness, but it looks like there's some pretty cool stuff Roy can do too!

Glad to see that this is going to be more than just "Roy can DACUS, end of discussion." I'm really curious to know if anybody knows how to apply footstooling effectively.
 

Smolder

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Oh come on guys, save some for the discussion!

That being said, I'm glad that there's so much depth to the brawl tech that looks like it can be applied in the future. I really only use wavebouncing/breversing and other brawl tech for my Ness, but it looks like there's some pretty cool stuff Roy can do too!

Glad to see that this is going to be more than just "Roy can DACUS, end of discussion." I'm really curious to know if anybody knows how to apply footstooling effectively.
Footstooling is broken on characters with a faster-than-average fall speed. Believe it or not, but dtilt -->footstool --> falling uair is actually a thing. I also found that on some characters, you can actually dtilt --> footstool --> dair --> footstool --> dair etc. (The timing is tight though, so practicing that over and over again is key)

I am actually thoroughly surprised as to why Roys don't utilize that piece of tech more. It's nearly broken if applied correctly. On battlefield, Roy can actually dtilt someone to where they are just above a platform, then footstool them. If they don't tech, you get a free follow up. If they do tech, and you know they will, you can waveland tech chase into a regrab. Literally all of Roy's aerials work well with his footstool. You should see the kind of shenanigans you can pull on a Lucario player with footstool. Due to his combo weight, he is a perfect candidate for footstool combos.

And if you want to get really tricky: If you're dealing with characters who are always up in your face when you're shielding, you can actually jump OoS --> fairly instant footstool --> either a follow up aerial or just reset to neutral by wavelanding onto a platform or something.

Footstools are awesome, guys. Let's start using them. =)

EDIT: You can also dtilt ---> fair ---> DJ footstool. I believe Sethlon has shown off that little trick numerous times.
 
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NIFOFD

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I will be updating this shortly to cover the things we discussed. Thank you all for all of your input, I (am I'm sure others) have learned quite a bit about this part of the game that I tend to overlook coming from a melee background.
 

Smolder

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I will be updating this shortly to cover the things we discussed. Thank you all for all of your input, I (am I'm sure others) have learned quite a bit about this part of the game that I tend to overlook coming from a melee background.
Can't wait to see the post, man. Sorry I couldn't attend the discussion. I really wanted to get a few words in on that discussion, but my internet got turned off.
 

NIFOFD

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Can't wait to see the post, man. Sorry I couldn't attend the discussion. I really wanted to get a few words in on that discussion, but my internet got turned off.
If there is anything you want to add (or anybody else for that matter), I'll add it to the post.
 
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