Recovery moves shouldn't induce a helpless state when used on the ground

[Jotari]

So this is something I've wanted Smash to implement for a long time, usually it was due to the tendency for Side Specials to result in a suicide if used near the edge, which highly nerfed the utility of some skills, but the latest game has really made an effort to just stop that being a thing. Still though the idea of using Up specials and other such recovery moves on the ground without inducing a helpelss stat has stuck with me, as I think it could lead to far more interesting combo potentials. So many up specials are just very risky to use as an attack option, as even if you hit with them they don't result in much potential for follow up, and should you miss you're going to be left pretty open. Of course this is just general, it really depends on what up special (and in which game you're using it).

But if they didn't result in a helpless state when used on the ground, and you were free to continue combos, it could result in all sorts of interesting gameplay. And we do see this with at least one character, that being Bayonetta whose Witch Twist doesn't induce a helpless state at all. One might think this would step on her territory a bit (along with the likes of Sonic and some other characters who have it to a lesser extent), but not necessarily if characters are limited to not being able to use their up special a second time if they use it to launch themselves upwards, but still being allowed to use other moves while Bayonetta can semi uniquely combo her up special into her up special (hell would it even be that crazy to extend it to all characters uniformly and removing the helpless state facet of the game completely and just give recoveries a one per air limit?)

I don't know, these are just the thoughts that go through my head. Obviously in reality this would probably have to be a case by case basis, what do you think?

 

[Doc Monocle]

So this is something I've wanted Smash to implement for a long time, usually it was due to the tendency for Side Specials to result in a suicide if used near the edge, which highly nerfed the utility of some skills, but the latest game has really made an effort to just stop that being a thing. Still though the idea of using Up specials and other such recovery moves on the ground without inducing a helpelss stat has stuck with me, as I think it could lead to far more interesting combo potentials. So many up specials are just very risky to use as an attack option, as even if you hit with them they don't result in much potential for follow up, and should you miss you're going to be left pretty open. Of course this is just general, it really depends on what up special (and in which game you're using it).

But if they didn't result in a helpless state when used on the ground, and you were free to continue combos, it could result in all sorts of interesting gameplay. And we do see this with at least one character, that being Bayonetta whose Witch Twist doesn't induce a helpless state at all. One might think this would step on her territory a bit (along with the likes of Sonic and some other characters who have it to a lesser extent), but not necessarily if characters are limited to not being able to use their up special a second time if they use it to launch themselves upwards, but still being allowed to use other moves while Bayonetta can semi uniquely combo her up special into her up special (hell would it even be that crazy to extend it to all characters uniformly and removing the helpless state facet of the game completely and just give recoveries a one per air limit?)

I don't know, these are just the thoughts that go through my head. Obviously in reality this would probably have to be a case by case basis, what do you think?

I am not sure what to think of that. On the one hand, it could have mouth-watering implications for aggressive playstyles, and it would give many characters (e.g. Lucario) another move to use in direct combat. Additionally, it would make some characters more fierce (imagine if King Dedede could now defend himself out of Super Jump). On the other hand, it could lead to more frequent use of recovery moves, which players would be more cautious of now, potentially elongating many games. It is a mixed bag, in my opinion.

 

[Jotari]

I am not sure what to think of that. On the one hand, it could have mouth-watering implications for aggressive playstyles, and it would give many characters (e.g. Lucario) another move to use in direct combat. Additionally, it would make some characters more fierce (imagine if King Dedede could now defend himself out of Super Jump). On the other hand, it could lead to more frequent use of recovery moves, which players would be more cautious of now, potentially elongating many games. It is a mixed bag, in my opinion.

Like I said, it would probably actually need to be a case by case basis. King Dedede, I think, just by virtue of the way his move is, would need to keep the helpless state, since it results from an intentional cancelling of the move. If you just let his move run it won't naturally result in a helpless state as he'll just keep on going until he hits something or dies.

 

[Quillion]

I'm personally all for spreading gimmicks to other characters if it would result in an overall better game.

I still think there should be a new "wavedash button" mechanic where you can cancel all jabs, tilts, and certain specials with it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think Ultimate is unga bunga enough as is. The absolute last thing we need is characters throwing out invincible up specials with no penalty. It’d be fun for a mode in Special Smash, but an actual game mechanic? Sounds like a disaster.