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Recognizing the Situation that Smash is In

MuraRengan

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It took me a long time to decide where to post this, because this post has more to do with the community at large than it does with competitive Smash 4. It has a message that I think is relevant to Melee players and Smash 4 players, but since there doesn't seem to be a place where community matters are discussed on this site, I figured that this forum was probably the most relevant since Smash 4 is the newest game.

Anyways, it has come to my attention through talking with some close friends of mine that Smash as a whole is in a very peculiar situation in relation to changes that are happening in the world. I have been fascinated and proud of League of Legends for making the first steps into making competitive gaming socially visible and financially manageable. League has done a lot in the area of bringing gaming closer to general society, but it still has a lot of unfulfilled potential in that area. I see that same potential in Smash and I attribute it to a changing world trend. In short, competitive gaming is beginning to be recognized both for its own merits and for its economic potential. If you follow League at all, you see that some streamers like qtpie can make around $20,000 in a month just from playing a video game all day. That's outrageous, but in a good way. This trend identifies a change in the economics of entertainment that is underway, and some companies are beginning to take notice. I personally wish I wasn't just a poor college student so I could jump on this train, because I think that in about 10 years, it could be very reasonable to see both League of Legends and Smash on tv if gamers, developers, and sponsors play their cards right.

So as it goes for Smash, we just got sponsorship from Nintendo, and whether you like what it has done to P:M or not, this is an undeniably big development. Some people say that the Smash community is better off without Nintendo, because Nintendo doesn't care as much about the integrity of competitive design. And this is a valid complaint, but I find that it's a relatively small issue when it comes unlocking the potential that the games have as a societal phenomenon. I too have very much respect for the integrity of competitive design (I've been playing Melee since 06), and it is true that Nintendo's current maxims are dangerous when it comes to the quality of competition that it fosters, but I think that with the changing values of society, having Nintendo in our corner is the best gift we could have asked for.

What I consider as the impetus behind Nintendo's sponsorship is that they have seen ongoing changes in the economics of entertainment, that they see it as an area of untapped revenue generation, and that they see the popularity of Melee as a sign that they can work with the community to make a lot of money. But, more relevant to our current situation is the fact that this is still unmarked territory, and to dive right into it is not a sound investment because 1. the investment might not be worth it, and 2. the community could make Nintendo look bad.

So what is Nintendo watching for? Nintendo is interested profit-wise in two areas: media gaming, and game design. As such, they're watching to see just how much interest is generated by Smash and what piques that interest. If Nintendo sees that there is very high demand for things like streams, I expect that they will make some moves in that direction. And if Nintendo sees that a particular kind of game design attracts more players, I expect that as competitive gaming grows in popularity Nintendo will eventually make a game that appeals to those values. In short, Nintendo sees that Smash might be an even bigger cash cow than they had originally known, and by sponsoring us the are making sure they are ready to milk the hell out of it if they can.

The emphasis is the "if". It is not certain yet that Smash can be that profitable, and there are currently things holding it back. First there is the division of the communities. As much as I think that Melee is the best game in the series, I have to acknowledge that the fact that Melee dominates societal attention is slowing the process of helping the series awaken its societal and economic potential. This is primarily because the immanent appeal of a new game is the best way to rapidly increase the demand of viewership, and Melee no longer has that immanent appeal. As a financial strategy, Nintendo should want Smash 4 to take over, because if Smash 4 becomes the big thing, children will be introduced to competitive smash in much larger numbers, expanding the demand for the game much more than Melee could. As much as I like Melee, and as much as I dislike the design choices in Smash 4, Smash 4 is the only opportunity for the community to experience exponential growth.

With that said, it is of paramount importance that Smash 4 be treated with respect. We cannot keep bashing the game, because that might make Nintendo think that we're not worth the investment, and all that potential for exponential growth will have been wasted. Of course, that appeal needs to be made tot he Melee community more than it needs to be made here, but I'm bringing up the statement just to make clear what will help and what will hurt our situation. With that said, there is one other possibility that we have to pay careful attention to if it means realizing the potential of Smash, and that is what will happen if Smash 4 fails. If Smash 4 goes the way of Brawl there are two things that can happen: 1. Nintendo gives up on the economic potential for competitive smash. 2. Nintendo restructures their attempt by making a new game that aims to draw competitive appeal.

For scenario 1 to happen, I imagine that not only will Smash 4 have to fail, but also Nintendo will have to have an overwhelming dislike for the community. We have not been an easy community to deal with. We expressed hatred for both Sakurai and Nintendo at times, and while this is certainly not the opinion of the entire community, if the voices of a vocal minority are the only voices that Ninntendo hears, they're the only opinions Nintendo will have available to them in order to determine whether or not the community appreciates its involvement and, more importantly, is willing cooperate with them as they attempt to help the games grow. This is where we have to change. Smash 4 may fail, but even if it does, we have to make sure Nintendo knows that we appreciate the effort. This is where we have to recognize that our own personal preferences in game design are irrelevant when it comes to the future of the game, and that if we want Nintendo to continue to make an effort on our behalf, we have to give them our faith and our love.

If we can do this, then scenario 2 is more likely to happen. Nintendo's involvement with us is directly owed to the persistance and popularity of Melee. Melee represents the dedication of gamers, and in Nintendo's eyes, that dedication means that the community will stick with the game through thick and thin. What I have not stated enough yet is the fact that the potential of Smash fundamentally needs the community. Smash will not grow without an fiercely dedicated fan base the likes of which we saw with Melee. So if Nintendo knows that the community is dedicated, then if Smash 4 fails, I think Nintendo will recognize that failure as a result of the game, rather than the problems of the community. To be honest, I think we have shown that dedication already, and Nintendo has probably already considered making an iteration of the game with specific emphasis on competition. But above all, we have to give them our support. We are going to remain a collection of small gatherings if we do not work with Nintendo. I believe that in 10 years we could see Smash on television, and that we could see burgeoning leagues in every city. That vision relies on an affirmative answer to two questions: Does Nintendo want that, and are we willing to work with them? I think this sponsorship is the first sign that Nintendo wants it, and the answer to the second question is really up to us.
 

AccountsDept

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I think we're forgetting something here (disclaimer : this is my maybe inaccurate information stated)

NoA is handling our sponsorships, NoJ/Sakurai is handling game development.

That there is the problem. I'm sure if NoA was developing Smash they'd address plenty of concerns we've had for months about shields, rolls, speed, streaming, and a whole host of other things. I would wager that they would make huge strides to cater to the competitive community, but the problem is Sakurai and NoJ don't give nearly the magnitude of **** about us as NoA does. So, because they need to market and popularize their newest game because they need it to sell, they are forced to make Sm4sh (or brawl a few years ago.) have some sort of priority (i.e. Apex Streams, stopping the stream of Melee at Evo).
this is kind of all i've got to say about this
 

Kodachi

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I like this post, and while melee stole the show for me a long time ago, I will happily support sm4sh & nintendo if it means they support us.
 

Raijinken

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I think more likely than either of your Choice 1 and Choice 2 would be that Nintendo would keep trying to foster its own definition of a competitive game. I'd side with them on that, Melee's skill floor that I can barely scrape is what turns me off from playing the game above a casual level. Either way, it remains to be seen how Nintendo will handle Smash in the future, with or without Sakurai. If they're really after a competitive scene, they'll either need Sakurai on-board to make the changes/options available in Smash4 (very unlikely given Sakurai's stance on the matter), or to make Smash5. Neither one is likely in the near future.
 

Valar Morghulis

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Melee could a bigger eSport if we didn't have to play the game on CRTs, it was HD and had online play...in other words, if Nintendo released an updated version of the game on WiiU, we wouldn't have to worry about supporting Smash 4. Obviously, Nintendo took notice of the competitive Melee community seeing as they got Reggie to say "no Johns" in a promo. There needs to be a bigger clamoring for a remake of Melee on the WiiU though. I have been playing Melee competitively since 2005 and the scene is bigger now than it ever was Pre-Brawl, which is insane considering its had 2 sequels and has been 13 years since it was released. Thus, I believe the time is now to make some noise through the internet so that Nintendo can't really ignore the people who want a Melee remake. I saw over 70,000 people watching Apex on stream last month. That's just the hardcore people into Melee. I think there is alot of opportunity for Nintendo to make some money on a Melee remake for WiiU. Nintendo just needs to know how solid and large of a fan base the game garners and that the same fan base would be willing to buy WiiUs and purchase the Melee remake. That would make Melee more accessible to kids these days that didn't grow up with the gamecube.

Once that happens, I think we could take melee to LoL and Starcraft levels of popularity and money makin'.
 
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Wintropy

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To what extent does the community's involvement with the game directly influence Nintendo's perceptions of what is potentially viable? And to what end does Sakurai's involvement in the production of the game influence it?

Sakurai's made it pretty clear that he's tepid with regards to competitive play (I wouldn't go so far as to say he's necessarily anti-competitive in a strict sense, but he certainly regards it as an unintended side-effect of what he perceives as a family-friendly party game, for better or for worse), but Nintendo as a company seem more keen on embracing the fans' impetus towards building an organised and cohesive competitive community. Would we have to expect Sakurai to leave Smash and a massive fundamental paradigm shift take place in order for a competitive environment to be fostered within the Smash community, or would it be possible to consider that both factions can be pleased with the prospect of creating a game that is simultaneously eligible for "fun" play and "serious"play?
 

Clavaat

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I'm sorry but the tone of this thread is irritating. Not only are you predicting what will occur if the game "fails", whatever that means, but that if it doesn't, Nintendo could change the design of it and future iterations. In any of these scenarios, you're saying Smash 4 isn't viable and needs to change. I truly don't want that to happen. I love Smash 4. It's the first Smash game that appeals to me competitively on any level, and changing that would make me go back to other fighting games.

I think you're still falling into the same pitfall that a lot of members of this particular community tend to, and that's having a very closed mind as to what "competitive" and "entertaining" means.

Excuse me if I'm misunderstanding, but from the tone, you sound like we should "tolerate" Smash 4 so that we can see support from higher ups and move forward. That's incredibly condescending.
 

Jebus244

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Excuse me if I'm misunderstanding, but from the tone, you sound like we should "tolerate" Smash 4 so that we can see support from higher ups and move forward. That's incredibly condescending.
I think that's exactly what he's saying. And I agree it's bulls***. We shouldn't tolerate garbage. If we lose Nintendo's sponsorship we will get someone better. We can't change Nintendo's stubbornness by succumbing to it. We need to blaze our own trail. I think we'd be better off without them to be honest. Melee has gotten this far without them, why not keep going the way it has? It's continued to grow afterall! And no one who supports melee over sm4sh is falling into any pitfalls. If you support sm4sh over melee, whatever, life is about learning from mistakes and maybe one day you will too.

Edit: The only reason to keep Nintendo's sponsorship would be for the benefit of TO's. Gotta make dat monay.
 
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Clavaat

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If you support sm4sh over melee, whatever, life is about learning from mistakes and maybe one day you will too.
Again, you're being condescending and completely missed the point of what I was saying. I don't care about Melee at all. I played it competitively for years and I prefer Smash 4. They are both fundamentally different and nothing is wrong with that.
 

Flamecircle

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I think that's exactly what he's saying. And I agree it's bulls***. We shouldn't tolerate garbage. If we lose Nintendo's sponsorship we will get someone better. We can't change Nintendo's stubbornness by succumbing to it. We need to blaze our own trail. I think we'd be better off without them to be honest. Melee has gotten this far without them, why not keep going the way it has? It's continued to grow afterall! And no one who supports melee over sm4sh is falling into any pitfalls. If you support sm4sh over melee, whatever, life is about learning from mistakes and maybe one day you will too.

Edit: The only reason to keep Nintendo's sponsorship would be for the benefit of TO's. Gotta make dat monay.
Hokay buddy

Blaze your own trail

Learn from your mistakes
 

HeroMystic

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If you support sm4sh over melee, whatever, life is about learning from mistakes and maybe one day you will too.
I will say this thread started off being very close to being a Melee vs Smash 4 thread and your post does not help at all. The Competitive forum is not the place for these types of posts. I suggest you do not post like this again.
 

Muro

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This post assumes that just because we like one smash game, we would want every game in the series to grow. In reality sm4sh is lacking a lot of things that made me like the series in the first place, so even if it became huge, it wouldn't mean anything to me, since it's not the game I liked in the first place. I don't really care if it succeeds or fails. Voicing your displeasure is one way to give your feedback on any game, so I don't think we should refrain from criticizing the game either.
 

Jebus244

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I will say this thread started off being very close to being a Melee vs Smash 4 thread and your post does not help at all. The Competitive forum is not the place for these types of posts. I suggest you do not post like this again.
LOL, yeah ok ;) Mostly trolling with harsh wording of a valid opinion. I could have taken the time to tiptoe around like the OP did. This thread belongs in general discussion anyways, don't jump on me because I posted a response.
Again, you're being condescending and completely missed the point of what I was saying. I don't care about Melee at all. I played it competitively for years and I prefer Smash 4. They are both fundamentally different and nothing is wrong with that.
I was being condescending on purpose. There is nothing wrong with that, you're right! Sm4sh should have it's own, separate platform, and survive or thrive on it's own. Let's see how that goes ;)
 

Flamecircle

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The point of the OP isn't "we must coddle smash 4," it's just treat it with respect. Basically, don't be a bad community. It's not like Smash 4 depends on melee. Smash 4 isn't attached to Melee as a parasite. It shares many of the same tourneys because shockingly, many people consider smash games one community!
 

MuraRengan

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@ Wintropy Wintropy I'd say that every game after 64 had that ability for both fun play and competitive play, but that Melee had it to the highest degree. I don't think it's that hard of a thing to go for so long as there are still silly stages and items. I still have fun from time to time turning on items and fooling around on Temple in Melee. So long as players can decide how they want to play, I think the games will remain enjoyable for either side.

@ Clavaat Clavaat You misunderstand. I'm keeping my personal opinion out of the judgement. I'm only commenting on what I observe as trends in the community. When I talk about Smash 4 failing, I'm talking about it not being received well enough by the community for it to stand the test of time like Melee did. If the game won't last for several years, then it's a wasted investment on Nintendo's part to try to make money off of its entertainment value. And if the game doesn't last several years, it will be because the majority of people don't think it's competitively valuable, whether you like it or not. For myself personally, I will "tolerate" Smash 4, if that's what you want to call it. That's not really what I call it, because that's not how I think about the two games anymore. I like Melee so I play Melee. I don't like Smash 4, but I still support the people, some of them my own friends, who play it. And I still support the game because I love Smash in general.

@ Muro Muro An understandable sentiment, and one that I used to hold onto myself. You're not wrong, but I do think that your perspective lacks respect to the idea of the community as a whole, which is perhaps where we differ in values. But consider this, if competitive smash does become a really big gaming phenomenon, then Nintendo would have more reason to cater to players who prefer excessive depth than they would have had otherwise. It's all or nothing, instead of just nothing, and for myself, I'd support Smash 4 if it meant that there's a better chance for a better game somewhere along the line. And even if that doesn't happen, I still have Melee.

@ Jebus244 Jebus244 Smash as a whole has been blazing its own trail since 99, but if you don't know your smash history, then you wouldn't know that Nintendo has sorta turned a blind eye to competitive smash, whereas they could have completely shut it down. If I recall correctly, back in around 06-07 Nintendo sent some major tournaments C&D letters, citing that the tournament organizers were making money off of Nintendo's product while Nintendo got none of that money. Whether or not Nintendo has any actual legal grounds in that matter wasn't even relevant, because no simple TO wants to get sued by Nintendo. The issues we are currently having with P:M are reminiscent of that same problem. Nintendo has always been aware that they could drive competitive smash into the ground by threat of lawsuit, but they just never did because they aren't assholes.
 
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Clavaat

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@ Clavaat Clavaat You misunderstand. I'm keeping my personal opinion out of the judgement. I'm only commenting on what I observe as trends in the community. When I talk about Smash 4 failing, I'm talking about it not being received well enough by the community for it to stand the test of time like Melee did. If the game won't last for several years, then it's a wasted investment on Nintendo's part to try to make money off of its entertainment value. And if the game doesn't last several years, it will be because the majority of people don't think it's competitively valuable, whether you like it or not. For myself personally, I will "tolerate" Smash 4, if that's what you want to call it. That's not really what I call it, because that's not how I think about the two games anymore. I like Melee so I play Melee. I don't like Smash 4, but I still support the people, some of them my own friends, who play it. And I still support the game because I love Smash in general.
I can respect that, thank you for clarifying.
 

stancosmos

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I think that's exactly what he's saying. And I agree it's bulls***. We shouldn't tolerate garbage. If we lose Nintendo's sponsorship we will get someone better. We can't change Nintendo's stubbornness by succumbing to it. We need to blaze our own trail. I think we'd be better off without them to be honest. Melee has gotten this far without them, why not keep going the way it has? It's continued to grow afterall! And no one who supports melee over sm4sh is falling into any pitfalls. If you support sm4sh over melee, whatever, life is about learning from mistakes and maybe one day you will too.

Edit: The only reason to keep Nintendo's sponsorship would be for the benefit of TO's. Gotta make dat monay.
Preaching learning from mistakes while starting a flame war on smash boards. Well done. Honestly dude, I love melee, but it's people like you that give it's fans a bad name. There's way to many people like you in the fighting games community, It makes for a very toxic competitive environment. "My games better than yours", grow up man, we're all just sitting around playing video games get your head out of your ass.
 

Jebus244

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Preaching learning from mistakes while starting a flame war on smash boards. Well done. Honestly dude, I love melee, but it's people like you that give it's fans a bad name. There's way to many people like you in the fighting games community, It makes for a very toxic competitive environment. "My games better than yours", grow up man, we're all just sitting around playing video games get your head out of your ***.
Don't feed trolls dude. I've done the civil side of this discussion, now I'm just getting a rise out of people.
 

T0MMY

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Very well thought out and communicated.
Supporting a game does not hurt anything, and neither does properly communicating how the competitive community would like to see the game series go gamedesign-wise.

If Nintendo keeps sponsoring Smash, I think that's great. It actually opens up more opportunities like Major League Gaming (I asked a rep at an MLG I attended why Smash didn't get the big stage and he said because Nintendo didn't sponsor the event).
And if Nintendo doesn't sponsor Smash, then it's not like having to do everything grassroots is a problem for the Smash community, that's where it all started.

The way I see it, Smash is in a great position, but it's up to each and every one of us to build that image that the Community has.
 
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