Raziek's Robin Training Thread

[Raziek]

I've accumulated enough material that I might as well make a thread for this business.

I'm going to be posting contents from my individual training sessions + matches I directly critique here, so it's all in one spot.

If you'd like an individual training session, feel free to ask here, on my profile, on Skype, or via PM.

Just one post to start, I'll probably collect old stuff later.

@ False Sense
[collapse="False Sense vs. Ismar"]

Ok, this is going to be hard to critique a bit due to customs I haven't seen before.

0:24 - Too close on the Arcfire.

Ok, so you're throwing Arcfire at 'anti-approach' range. But Samus isn't going to approach you. That Arcfire causes no pressure.

0:48 - Reckless dash attack. Beware of frustration.

1:35 - Nice adjustment on the Arcfire ranges. Much better.

1:45 - Okay so you can pressure Samus off stage. Her Fair has real bad horizontal range. Not sure about the new Nair. I would make an effort to threaten Bair or Nair. Either that or convert Uair into a juggle situation.

2:07 - Should've only done one roll, not 2. Gave up stage positioning there.

2:20 - Careful on the rolls, bro~. Be more patient.

Okay, another thing I haven't been seeing in your arsenal is falling Uair. Watch my sets against Drake's Rosalina for example situations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b72r-ZOpjmo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwhaMqojp4U

2:58 Not really a safe Arcfire there.

You REEEEEALLY need more Uair in your life. A lot of these Fairs would be better as Uair.

3:34 - Holy **** please stop rolling so much. You're not getting punished for it like you should, but that's reaaaaally unsafe.

3:38 - Shielded Dash attack could've been punished instead of rolling away.

4:10 - I think you could've punished that Up-B.

4:34 - That was free Uair pressure and you just rolled out.

4:46 - Should've jabbed after the whiffed Fair.

5:14 - I can't believe you're getting away with these rolls constantly. You should be getting down-smashed every time you roll in like that.

You also really need more Bair in your life. Really REEALLY good against tall characters. Check the above Rosa sets for example of that as well. You could be using it in a lot of the situations where you opt to roll away to reset to neutral.

Game 2

Really unsafe Arcfires at the start.

Nice Arcthunder conversion though.

6:42 - Ok stop that. You're just hitting it to hit it now. Think about your Arcfires.

7:12 - You're also consistently not expecting Zair. If Samus jumps at range, it's almost certainly Zair.

7:18 - Falling Fair really needs to be falling Uair here.

7:48 -

9:17 - Full-hopping there was super unsafe. Move forward on the ground if you weren't planning on swinging.

Ouch. Yeah, that one was rough.

Game 3

Ok, Skyloft, not bad. I'd have gone Delfino against Samus due to shorter ceiling, but this is fine too.

10:33 - I think you could've done Bair OoS.

Also, it just occurred to me this is a match-up where you could run Speed Thunder. I would do that.

11:28 - I've seen it enough times to think it's not just an occasional mistake. You need to keep track of your Arcfire. I occassionally forget, but not THIS frequently.

12:00 - VERY smart. I'm proud of you. Camp it out.

12:06 - Not so smart. Go to the leeeeeedge.

12:30 - That clanks?! Neat.

13:22 - STOP ROLLING IN

14:56 - That charge shot was so obvious.
[/collapse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r559hMNZO74 - False Sense vs. Raziek training highlights.

 

[LIQUID12A]

7:48


Always with the clever blend of style, information and substance. I look forward to seeing more.

 

[Funkermonster]

I've accumulated enough material that I might as well make a thread for this business.

I'm going to be posting contents from my individual training sessions + matches I directly critique here, so it's all in one spot.

If you'd like an individual training session, feel free to ask here, on my profile, on Skype, or via PM.
Just one post to start, I'll probably collect old stuff later.


Can I get bodied next?

 

[False Sense]

I've accumulated enough material that I might as well make a thread for this business.

I'm going to be posting contents from my individual training sessions + matches I directly critique here, so it's all in one spot.

If you'd like an individual training session, feel free to ask here, on my profile, on Skype, or via PM.

Just one post to start, I'll probably collect old stuff later.

@ False Sense
[collapse="False Sense vs. Ismar"]

Ok, this is going to be hard to critique a bit due to customs I haven't seen before.

0:24 - Too close on the Arcfire.

Ok, so you're throwing Arcfire at 'anti-approach' range. But Samus isn't going to approach you. That Arcfire causes no pressure.

0:48 - Reckless dash attack. Beware of frustration.

1:35 - Nice adjustment on the Arcfire ranges. Much better.

1:45 - Okay so you can pressure Samus off stage. Her Fair has real bad horizontal range. Not sure about the new Nair. I would make an effort to threaten Bair or Nair. Either that or convert Uair into a juggle situation.

2:07 - Should've only done one roll, not 2. Gave up stage positioning there.

2:20 - Careful on the rolls, bro~. Be more patient.

Okay, another thing I haven't been seeing in your arsenal is falling Uair. Watch my sets against Drake's Rosalina for example situations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b72r-ZOpjmo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwhaMqojp4U

2:58 Not really a safe Arcfire there.

You REEEEEALLY need more Uair in your life. A lot of these Fairs would be better as Uair.

3:34 - Holy **** please stop rolling so much. You're not getting punished for it like you should, but that's reaaaaally unsafe.

3:38 - Shielded Dash attack could've been punished instead of rolling away.

4:10 - I think you could've punished that Up-B.

4:34 - That was free Uair pressure and you just rolled out.

4:46 - Should've jabbed after the whiffed Fair.

5:14 - I can't believe you're getting away with these rolls constantly. You should be getting down-smashed every time you roll in like that.

You also really need more Bair in your life. Really REEALLY good against tall characters. Check the above Rosa sets for example of that as well. You could be using it in a lot of the situations where you opt to roll away to reset to neutral.

Game 2

Really unsafe Arcfires at the start.

Nice Arcthunder conversion though.

6:42 - Ok stop that. You're just hitting it to hit it now. Think about your Arcfires.

7:12 - You're also consistently not expecting Zair. If Samus jumps at range, it's almost certainly Zair.

7:18 - Falling Fair really needs to be falling Uair here.

7:48 -

9:17 - Full-hopping there was super unsafe. Move forward on the ground if you weren't planning on swinging.

Ouch. Yeah, that one was rough.

Game 3

Ok, Skyloft, not bad. I'd have gone Delfino against Samus due to shorter ceiling, but this is fine too.

10:33 - I think you could've done Bair OoS.

Also, it just occurred to me this is a match-up where you could run Speed Thunder. I would do that.

11:28 - I've seen it enough times to think it's not just an occasional mistake. You need to keep track of your Arcfire. I occassionally forget, but not THIS frequently.

12:00 - VERY smart. I'm proud of you. Camp it out.

12:06 - Not so smart. Go to the leeeeeedge.

12:30 - That clanks?! Neat.

13:22 - STOP ROLLING IN

14:56 - That charge shot was so obvious.
[/collapse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r559hMNZO74 - False Sense vs. Raziek training highlights.

First of all, I really like the idea of this thread. I think a training thread is a welcome addition that will be a great benefit to many aspiring Robin mains.

Now, as for your critiques...

I don't have the time now, but later on I want to look through all of this and give it a proper response. Glancing over it now, I can see that I have a number of glaring issues... But at the same time, that just means there are plenty of ways I can improve myself.

 

[Centicerise]

A training session with you is something I would greatly appreciate. My college is planning bi-weekly tournies under CT_Nyani next semester so I'd like to get an edge on the competition.

 

[Raziek]

A training session with you is something I would greatly appreciate. My college is planning bi-weekly tournies under CT_Nyani next semester so I'd like to get an edge on the competition.

Can I get bodied next?

I can set aside an hour or so tonight after 6 EST.

Pika Kong gets first dibs if he wants it, since he asked first.

 

[Centicerise]

Anytime after six is open for me. I look forward to it.

 

[Raziek]

Anytime after six is open for me. I look forward to it.

If @ Funkermonster doesn't respond by 6 EST, we can start right when I get home from work at that time.

 

[Funkermonster]

It's alright, he can go first. I've got somewhere to be today and'll come home a little late.

 

[False Sense]

Ok, time to look at some individual points.

2:07 - Should've only done one roll, not 2. Gave up stage positioning there.

2:20 - Careful on the rolls, bro~. Be more patient.

3:34 - Holy **** please stop rolling so much. You're not getting punished for it like you should, but that's reaaaaally unsafe.

5:14 - I can't believe you're getting away with these rolls constantly. You should be getting down-smashed every time you roll in like that.

7:48 -

13:22 - STOP ROLLING IN

I am genuinely curious as to how, when, where, and why someone was able to record a raccoon rolling around in their house.

Anyway, as all these comments make quite clear... I roll too much. That's a bad nervous habit I have that I need to break. In particular, it seems that I often use multiple rolls at once in an attempt to escape or approach opponents, which tends to get me punished if the opponent catches on.

So, here's my question: what would you say is a good use of a roll? Everyone always talks about rolling too much and when you shouldn't roll, but in what kind of situations should you roll?

0:24 - Too close on the Arcfire.

Ok, so you're throwing Arcfire at 'anti-approach' range. But Samus isn't going to approach you. That Arcfire causes no pressure.

2:58 Not really a safe Arcfire there.

Really unsafe Arcfires at the start.

6:42 - Ok stop that. You're just hitting it to hit it now. Think about your Arcfires.

So I guess my second biggest issue is that I use Arcfire too much and without thinking, correct? I admit that I don't often consider as many factors as you pointed out when using the attack... And I was pretty nervous during those specific matches, so I didn't put as much thought into using the move as I should have. I'll try to work on that.

1:45 - Okay so you can pressure Samus off stage. Her Fair has real bad horizontal range. Not sure about the new Nair. I would make an effort to threaten Bair or Nair. Either that or convert Uair into a juggle situation.

Okay, another thing I haven't been seeing in your arsenal is falling Uair. Watch my sets against Drake's Rosalina for example situations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b72r-ZOpjmo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwhaMqojp4U

You REEEEEALLY need more Uair in your life. A lot of these Fairs would be better as Uair.

4:34 - That was free Uair pressure and you just rolled out.

7:18 - Falling Fair really needs to be falling Uair here.

This is something I've been trying to improve upon, but I'm having a little more difficulty than I would expect. Things just don't tend to work out right when I try to use the move: sometimes I accidentally end up using U-Smash instead, other times the opponent just air dodges/shields the attack and regain control unscathed, and sometimes I just miss.

I feel like the way I've been trying to use the move hasn't been exactly right. Aside from the falling U-Air trick, would you happen to have any tips and tricks for using the move effectively? As it's one of Robin's most powerful tools, I'd like to have a good understanding of it.

12:06 - Not so smart. Go to the leeeeeedge.

I was aiming for it, but I ended up going higher with Elwind than I had intended...

12:30 - That clanks?! Neat.

Yeah, that surprised me too. Probably not the safest way of protecting yourself from a charge shot, but it is an interesting discovery nonetheless. I wonder what other kinds of projectiles could be cancelled with the Levin Sword...

 

[Meta651]

I would like to get bodied have a Robin training session. I want to advance with the tactician and I would love some constructive critiques to my play and If I can get over some bad habits.

Sadly I don't have a recorded match of me playing Robin on a tourney or a serious match or a way to record my own matches to post here or on the video thread.

 

[Raziek]

Anytime after six is open for me. I look forward to it.

I am ready to play now.

I'll be recording the matches with my LGP and doing audio commentary. I can also give text advice as we play, or we can Skype while playing. Up to you.

I would prefer contact during the session itself to be voice or text on Skype, though.

jordan_mcgee is my Skype username.

 

[Centicerise]

I have faced the wrath of truly fearsome Nair gimps tonight. Overall a very productive training session. Thank you for taking the time to do this for your fellow robin players Raz.

 

[False Sense]

I have faced the wrath of truly fearsome Nair gimps tonight.

Spoiler

 

[AlienWarhead]

A training session sounds fun even though I'll probably be beat real bad so if you have time I'd like to try a training session, but I only have the 3DS version is that a problem?

 

[Raziek]

I was being careful not to make the game sound too loud, and in doing so, I made it too quiet. At least you can hear the stuff I say clearly!

Edit: In retrospect, it's actually not TOO quiet.

@ False Sense : I'll answer your questions tomorrow after work probably.

Edit 2: Hrm. It's a bit choppy. I will try to fine-tune my XSplit settings for the next time I record one of these.

 

[Centicerise]

I was being careful not to make the game sound too loud, and in doing so, I made it too quiet. At least you can hear the stuff I say clearly!

Edit: In retrospect, it's actually not TOO quiet.

@ False Sense : I'll answer your questions tomorrow after work probably.

Edit 2: Hrm. It's a bit choppy. I will try to fine-tune my XSplit settings for the next time I record one of these.

I shall cherish my sole victory, courtesy of a lucky ejected tome!

 

[Raziek]

A training session sounds fun even though I'll probably be beat real bad so if you have time I'd like to try a training session, but I only have the 3DS version is that a problem?

I can do 3DS, it just won't be recorded. We also won't get to enjoy cape physics.

Anyway, as all these comments make quite clear... I roll too much. That's a bad nervous habit I have that I need to break. In particular, it seems that I often use multiple rolls at once in an attempt to escape or approach opponents, which tends to get me punished if the opponent catches on.

So, here's my question: what would you say is a good use of a roll? Everyone always talks about rolling too much and when you shouldn't roll, but in what kind of situations should you roll?

When To Roll

So, the biggest problem and risk associated with using rolls is their end-lag. Rolls are a decision you pick because you need invincibility frames NOW. They're vulnerable at the end and can be punished pretty easily if your opponent expects it.

Robin's backwards roll is actually pretty good.

Robin's shield comes up pretty quickly at the end of the step, so it's not that easy to punish. It's vulnerable for a total of 8 frames.

Forward roll, on the other hand, does not go very far, and has a longer vulnerable recovery window at the end of it. (11 frames)

Generally, as a rule of thumb, I roll only when I am sure it is not going to be punished.

ROLLS ARE NOT A PRIMARY FORM OF MOVEMENT.

I roll to create space (rolling away) when it's safe, or to roll THROUGH a projectile (like Arcfire, as an example) to get a punish. You can also roll through the opponent if you think they're going to commit to something laggy in general (doesn't necessarily have to be a projectile). Just be aware that Robin's forward roll is generally pretty laggy and is not an amazing option.

I feel like the way I've been trying to use the move hasn't been exactly right. Aside from the falling U-Air trick, would you happen to have any tips and tricks for using the move effectively? As it's one of Robin's most powerful tools, I'd like to have a good understanding of it.

Ok, so basically what Uair does is create this big arc of 'No, **** you' in the air above Robin's head. It starts at the front, has a deceptively large horizontal hitbox, and auto-cancels out of a short-hop. That means you can retreat it relatively safely and cover your landing with a quick jab. This also makes it exceptionally good at catching people out of their jumps.

When you have people above you, most of your gameplan should consist of threatening them with Uair, or just outright hitting them with it. Bait them into airdodging and then hit them in the recovery, or bait them into doing it close to the ground and dash-grab their landing lag.

Uair is just reeeeeally really good. Almost nobody can challenge it from above.

 

[False Sense]

When To Roll

So, the biggest problem and risk associated with using rolls is their end-lag. Rolls are a decision you pick because you need invincibility frames NOW. They're vulnerable at the end and can be punished pretty easily if your opponent expects it.

Robin's backwards roll is actually pretty good.

Robin's shield comes up pretty quickly at the end of the step, so it's not that easy to punish. It's vulnerable for a total of 8 frames.

Forward roll, on the other hand, does not go very far, and has a longer vulnerable recovery window at the end of it. (11 frames)

Generally, as a rule of thumb, I roll only when I am sure it is not going to be punished.

ROLLS ARE NOT A PRIMARY FORM OF MOVEMENT.

I roll to create space (rolling away) when it's safe, or to roll THROUGH a projectile (like Arcfire, as an example) to get a punish. You can also roll through the opponent if you think they're going to commit to something laggy in general (doesn't necessarily have to be a projectile). Just be aware that Robin's forward roll is generally pretty laggy and is not an amazing option.


Ok, so basically what Uair does is create this big arc of 'No, **** you' in the air above Robin's head. It starts at the front, has a deceptively large horizontal hitbox, and auto-cancels out of a short-hop. That means you can retreat it relatively safely and cover your landing with a quick jab. This also makes it exceptionally good at catching people out of their jumps.

When you have people above you, most of your gameplan should consist of threatening them with Uair, or just outright hitting them with it. Bait them into airdodging and then hit them in the recovery, or bait them into doing it close to the ground and dash-grab their landing lag.

Uair is just reeeeeally really good. Almost nobody can challenge it from above.

As always, your advice is most helpful and greatly appreciated.

Now, if it's possible, I'd like to request a training session for sometime this coming weekend. I'm going to be playing Aerodrome for my next tournament match, so I'd like to get some proper practice so I don't get completely destroyed.

We also won't get to enjoy cape physics.

How can one live in such a world?

 

[Raziek]

Session from last night with @ Blakexd9 :

@ False Sense @ Centicerise , please welcome him to the 'Gimped by Nair' support group.

I also fixed the stuttering problem and got it recorded in much higher quality than previously.

 

[Blakexd9]

Session from last night with @ Blakexd9 :

@ False Sense @ Centicerise , please welcome him to the 'Gimped by Nair' support group.

I also fixed the stuttering problem and got it recorded in much higher quality than previously.

The nair gimps are real

Those first few matches were pretty painful to watch, lol. At least I played better later on. Either way thanks to Raziek for the super fun training last night, we have to play again sometime.

 

[AlienWarhead]

Razeik I can't find you on Skype, earlier in this thread you said your skype username was "jordan_mcgee", but a bunch of people on Skype have that username and the _ isn't helping. Please help I would really like to do a training session with you on 3DS

 

[Raziek]

Razeik I can't find you on Skype, earlier in this thread you said your skype username was "jordan_mcgee", but a bunch of people on Skype have that username and the _ isn't helping. Please help I would really like to do a training session with you on 3DS

I have you added already from when you wanted into the Skype group.

 

[Raziek]

From last night's session with @ Meta651 .

Another to join the support group.

Note: I'm playing default Robin, since Meta prefers Red, and I didn't mind switching.

 

[Raziek]

Another, with @Loshan this time!

 

[Strider_123]

anyone up for a battle robin to robin!? mano to mano! also i only have the 3ds one. just trying to get better

 

[Centicerise]

As I tumbled into the abyss of despair below, I steeled myself, mustering all my willpower.
"Not like this." Gathering my dying strength for one final struggle I broke the chains of physics itself as I vaulted through the air towards a sky full of hope. But a dark enemy, cloaked in red, descended on me as I reached out my hand to grasp for my dreams.
Lo and behold, a butter knife was swung down to intercept my ascension-- yes, a butter knife.

That butter knife tore the wings of desperation from my back and flung me far from salvation, laughing as it watched me tumble.
Within my hand a flickering elwind tome mocked me-- even if I used it, it wouldn't be enough. A miracle wouldn't happen.
I could not even be sour about my demise. After all, it was not a lemon sword that struck me down... but a butter knife.
"How many more times will I be two stocked by Raz...?" I wondered as I fell from heaven.
A single teardrop traced through the air as I shut my eyes to the world.

"GAME!" With the announcer's proclamation, the curtains were drawn on this tragedy.

 

[False Sense]

As I tumbled into the abyss of despair below, I steeled myself, mustering all my willpower.
"Not like this." Gathering my dying strength for one final struggle I broke the chains of physics itself as I vaulted through the air towards a sky full of hope. But a dark enemy, cloaked in red, descended on me as I reached out my hand to grasp for my dreams.
Lo and behold, a butter knife was swung down to intercept my ascension-- yes, a butter knife.

That butter knife tore the wings of desperation from my back and flung me far from salvation, laughing as it watched me tumble.
Within my hand a flickering elwind tome mocked me-- even if I used it, it wouldn't be enough. A miracle wouldn't happen.
I could not even be sour about my demise. After all, it was not a lemon sword that struck me down... but a butter knife.
"How many more times will I be two stocked by Raz...?" I wondered as I fell from heaven.
A single teardrop traced through the air as I shut my eyes to the world.

"GAME!" With the announcer's proclamation, the curtains were drawn on this tragedy.

Give this guy a cookie.

 

[Meta651]

As I tumbled into the abyss of despair below, I steeled myself, mustering all my willpower.
"Not like this." Gathering my dying strength for one final struggle I broke the chains of physics itself as I vaulted through the air towards a sky full of hope. But a dark enemy, cloaked in red, descended on me as I reached out my hand to grasp for my dreams.
Lo and behold, a butter knife was swung down to intercept my ascension-- yes, a butter knife.

That butter knife tore the wings of desperation from my back and flung me far from salvation, laughing as it watched me tumble.
Within my hand a flickering elwind tome mocked me-- even if I used it, it wouldn't be enough. A miracle wouldn't happen.
I could not even be sour about my demise. After all, it was not a lemon sword that struck me down... but a butter knife.
"How many more times will I be two stocked by Raz...?" I wondered as I fell from heaven.
A single teardrop traced through the air as I shut my eyes to the world.

"GAME!" With the announcer's proclamation, the curtains were drawn on this tragedy.

That feeling, you know that you're screwed, that there's nothing you can do except to watch how that butter knife comes closer to negate all the things you wanted, to return to the stage, to regain your pride, to keep your stock, to win the match...but no.
And meanwhile you go down to the deeps of the oblivion you watch the one that looks similar to you recovering, throwing that wind blade to recover after he's done with his job.

Serious talk now, thanks a lot @ Raziek for the training session and some good matches the other day, I'm going to practice the things that you said to me. They can still give a huge advantage during the match or help for the comeback.

Also, someones need to do a "Gimped by Raz's Nair support group" banner, I would do it if I had the skills.

 

[AlienWarhead]

I have you added already from when you wanted into the Skype group.

My bad, anyway thanks for trying to help me sorry I only have the 3DS version, but I think I got better I was finally able to edgeguard someone and I'm not afraid to chase people off-stage when I can so thanks for that.

edit: Nevermind I still feel like I suck, maybe I need more help

 

[False Sense]

Now, if it's possible, I'd like to request a training session for sometime this coming weekend. I'm going to be playing Aerodrome for my next tournament match, so I'd like to get some proper practice so I don't get completely destroyed.

So, @ Raziek , is this arrangeable?

 

[Raziek]

So, @ Raziek , is this arrangeable?

Yeah, I'm free all day Saturday.

You really should use the Skype group more though.

 

[DaBeast]

Any way I can schedule something on Sunday with you Raz? Would like to play before I head to school.

 

[False Sense]

You really should use the Skype group more though.

I have a tendency to forget that exists.

I don't really use Skype unless I want to communicate with someone more quickly and efficiently than on a forum.

 

[Raziek]

Any way I can schedule something on Sunday with you Raz? Would like to play before I head to school.

I can do Sunday after 5 EST.

 

[Funkermonster]

Ok, got my game back, can play again. Not available today, but are you open on Tomorrow Monday or on afternoon this Firday? Or anybody at all?

I'd also like to use my too, trying to break my bad habits with him too.

 

[Raziek]

Tomorrow night I'll be around, yeah.

 

[Célja]

I'm going to a tournament this Saturday so I'm wondering if I could get some last minute training either Thursday or Friday.

 

[False Sense]

I'm going to be playing Aerodrome for my next tournament match, so I'd like to get some proper practice so I don't get completely destroyed.

What do you know. I actually ended up winning that match, 2-0. And against Sheik, too.

Thanks for all your help, @ Raziek .

 

[Raziek]

I'm going to a tournament this Saturday so I'm wondering if I could get some last minute training either Thursday or Friday.

Probably will have to be Thursday, Friday is a busy day for me.

What do you know. I actually ended up winning that match, 2-0. And against Sheik, too.

Thanks for all your help, @ Raziek .

Congrats, and well done! :D